IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #29

[AbbeyR]

Originally Posted by Ixchel13: The reason LE might hold Salzmann in high esteem is that he was the Prosecutor here for two terms. I fully understand how a defense atty functions, I'm just saying that this guy is not the type to ruin a potential political career to back a liar. Allowing his client to claim amnesia when it a) might be more than partially true and b) he was punched to the ground, is not exactly dirty dealing.

It's not unusual either, as it turns out. I seriously thought this only happened in movies, but google 'crime-related amnesia' or 'malingered amnesia'. A huge percentage of people accused or convicted of crime claim total memory loss, the key characteristic being that it is limited to the very specific period in which the crime takes place. (As in "I can't remember anything from X minutes before the crime to...")

claims of amnesia for violent crimes, including murder, are very common. Obviously, some guilty suspects deny involvement in the crime or claim amnesia to avoid punishment. About 25–40 per cent of those who are found guilty of homicide claim to be amnesic or to have a complete memory loss (Schacter, 1986; Taylor and Kopelman, 1984), and the large majority of these claims are circumscribed to the crime itself (Bradford and Smith, 1979).

(link)

Of course, it's also possible that people suffer memory loss from things like being punched in the face, so it's possible that one could happen to have amnesia during the exact same time frame that an unrelated crime takes place. That would be unfortunate. Especially if you were the last person seen with the crime victim... :innocent:

 

[AbbeyR]

So if LS stopped at CR's on the way to Kilroys, maybe it's at this time that MB is referring to that LS wanted to party, not when he is putting CR to bed.

Possibly. If it happened. For the record, it was Salzmann -- CR's lawyer who claimed he was told this (about MB), not MB or MB's lawyer.

 

[VeryVeritas]

ok so DR doesn't leave JRs for Kilroys like LS and CR, he goes home to SW and stays
there and only he takes a poly, and passes. He runs up to JRs, runs right back and holes up for the night. LS supposedly leaves her phone at Kilroys during a hurried exit after telling a few people she was very high.
CS tells us twice to listen to her saying that Lauren last used her phone safely at SW
before leaving. Are we to believe Lauren took her phone up to JRs , and then down to Kilroys without texting or calling anyone? More likely LS left her phone at SW and someone got hold of it and later dropped it off at Kilroys. Also, CS doesn't say that Lauren didn't call her phone; or if anyone called it after Lauren last used it, or if anyone else used it after that.

Ok, I've been thinking about this.

1)Why would someone bring her phone from SW to Kilroys and not just leave it at SW??
2) Did she also walk barefoot all night and they brought her shoes too?
3) Now if her phone was at JR's she wasn't really there that long before going to Kilroy's so that interval isn't so strange. Not unless the whole night she was texting every 3 minutes and then suddenly stopped. 12:16 and then she is walking to JR's... by 12:30 she is at JR's and it's a social scene... by 1:00 or so she is at Kilroys, at some point at Kilroy's something is hitting her hard... either something she took at JR's or something that was taken or slipped to her at Kilroys. JR being part of the cover up, would make sense that she ingested something at JR's. Yet, I don't think that is the totality of it... I think something more happened at Kilroy's and that was the final straw that started the heavy spiral down.
4) We do know that someone at Kilroy's used her phone to call JW right? And it would make sense that people (like JW) called and texted her. Would be nice to see the whole picture. Could really help. But that's tied up with LE. and LE would have fingerprints on the phone.

 

[VeryVeritas]

Possibly. If it happened. For the record, it was Salzmann -- CR's lawyer who claimed he was told this (about MB), not MB or MB's lawyer.

Yes, and that would fit. But... how does that fit with CR puking and needing to be put to bed and LS helping put CR to bed? That had to have been after CR returned at 3:00 am. And yet it was LS that was unconscious and more likely puking and needing to go to bed. So by talking up her earlier desire to party... they would be twisting the facts out of sequence to make things seem different than they were. I want to hear the truth from MB... clear statements about the sequence of events and Lauren's REAL condition.

 

[VeryVeritas]

Yeah, about DR -- I was just surprised at the times.

LS also stopped at CR's on the way to Kilroys, I think. He could have given her something there. Either way, it seems like she becomes totally incapacitated not long after leaving with CR.

It sounds like they went off alone, but CS said JR was at Kilroys too, so its hard to tell.

I could see that, but if they were there it was brief... and agree... how much would it matter if she took something voluntarily at JR's or was given A but it was really B at CR/MB's or if CR slipped her a Roofie at Kilroy's? At this point it all leads down same path, and I would think an autopsy would have trouble determining the cause of death between these scenarios.
I mean it would be very difficult to prove that someone spiked her drink at this stage, yet I think that's what happened or she was lied to about what she was given.

 

[Ixchel13]

Thanks for the reminder about Salzman's office. I'd not thought about his location. But, if he had video, withholding that evidence from LE would be a crime... so not likely he has something that LE doesn't. He just seems to be literally be the closest Lawyer around. Which feeds my suspicion that CR is lazy and had he stashed the body, it would not be far from 5N. JR, I would think would want to drive further away and would put more thinking into it.

BBM: who says he withheld the video he might have?

 

[VeryVeritas]

BBM: who says he withheld the video he might have?

It seems to me that there could be a lot of cam sources that could rule all sorts of scenarios out and could be a tripwire for liars. Prosecution certainly would hold such cards closely.

1) I'm not sure if Salzman even had a camera... but ok, maybe he does.
2) Waffle House
3) Buildings to the north of 10th and College Building (Possible)
4) 10th and College cams
5) The same Alley cam that captured the last known footage of LS
6) The cams that captured the "white truck"
7) SW cams
8) Other possible cams (e.g. around Kilroy's, on 11th, etc...)

But I'm not sure what you are suggesting?

 

[Btown]

It seems to me that there could be a lot of cam sources that could rule all sorts of scenarios out and could be a tripwire for liars. Prosecution certainly would hold such cards closely.

1) I'm not sure if Salzman even had a camera... but ok, maybe he does.

He has several cameras. I posted images, and a link that says he proactively turned in his video, before the police were asking people to do that.
Guess it doesn't mean he turned it all over I suppose.

2) Waffle House

No Cameras.

3) Buildings to the north of 10th and College Building (Possible)

No Cameras.

 

[Ixchel13]

It seems to me that there could be a lot of cam sources that could rule all sorts of scenarios out and could be a tripwire for liars. Prosecution certainly would hold such cards closely.

1) I'm not sure if Salzman even had a camera... but ok, maybe he does.
2) Waffle House
3) Buildings to the north of 10th and College Building (Possible)
4) 10th and College cams
5) The same Alley cam that captured the last known footage of LS
6) The cams that captured the "white truck"
7) SW cams
8) Other possible cams (e.g. around Kilroy's, on 11th, etc...)

But I'm not sure what you are suggesting?[/QUOTE]

BBM--I'm suggesting that Salzmann turned everything over to LE.
IF Lauren left JRs, she might be on his video.
These POIs seem guilty, but there is a slight chance that they're telling the truth. Also a chance that if Lauren was slipped a rufie at Kilroys, CR was
slipped one, too. Motive? possibly robbery.

 

[VeryVeritas]

It seems to me that there could be a lot of cam sources that could rule all sorts of scenarios out and could be a tripwire for liars. Prosecution certainly would hold such cards closely.

1) I'm not sure if Salzman even had a camera... but ok, maybe he does.
2) Waffle House
3) Buildings to the north of 10th and College Building (Possible)
4) 10th and College cams
5) The same Alley cam that captured the last known footage of LS
6) The cams that captured the "white truck"
7) SW cams
8) Other possible cams (e.g. around Kilroy's, on 11th, etc...)

But I'm not sure what you are suggesting?[/QUOTE]

BBM--I'm suggesting that Salzmann turned everything over to LE.
IF Lauren left JRs, she might be on his video.
These POIs seem guilty, but there is a slight chance that they're telling the truth. Also a chance that if Lauren was slipped a rufie at Kilroys, CR was
slipped one, too. Motive? possibly robbery.

If there is any footage of Lauren after the alley fall that would be a bombshell in my view! particularly if it was in the post 4:15 time span... I doubt something like that would still be supressed.

Seems CR would like us to think that he got slipped one... being up early with MB at a drugstore asking about little blonde girls seems to fly in the face of that.

 

[akh]

I thought it was established (at least as far as we can establish anything) just the other day CR (and MB) were NOT up early at the drugstore?

 

[AbbeyR]

#1) CM: "have you seen a little blond girl" - 'the next morning' -- i.e. after the altercation would be June 3rd. Date is wrong (Feb. 4) so it's unclear. It could be the next day, June 4, but it would be a little strange to be asking neighbors this question a day after she was reported missing, IMO.

"Several students who saw Rossman in the period after Spierer vanished questioned the "memory loss," saying he had no bruising or redness to his face that would support the claim. Supposedly he had that big altercation, but he didn't look like anything happened to him," said senior Chris Malone, who saw Corey the next morning, Feb. 4 Rossman was outside his apartment, asking Malone if he'd seen Spierer."What's up boys?" Malone quoted Rossman as telling him. "Did you happen to see a little blond girl?"Malone, who hadn't seen her, said he knows Rossman and roommate Mike Beth because they played in his Fantasy Football League and would sometimes grill together. "They like to party," he said. http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2011-06-12-lauren-spierer-missing_n.htm

#2) Friend from Smallwood at CVS - June 3

(Snipped from an earlier post from Bessie)
A friend of Rossman’s told The Journal News on Friday that Rossman looked groggy but OK several hours afterward and was aware that Spierer was missing. The friend, a male Indiana University student who lives in Spierer’s building, said he ran into Rossman at a CVS pharmacy the afternoon of June 3 and saw no redness or bruising on his face. He said Rossman was with Beth and told him that Spierer had been in their apartment early that morning. The friend spoke on the condition his name not be used because he did not want to anger Rossman and did not want police to know he was speaking about the case with a reporter. He said Rossman recalled having a lot to drink the previous night and said he went home and passed out. Beth told the friend he put Rossman to bed and that Spierer wanted to leave. Beth told the friend he watched her walk out the door and down the street on her way home, the friend said.
According to the friend, Beth and Rossman are not just roommates, but also close friends; he described Rossman as “cool and sometimes cocky” and Beth as his slightly younger buddy who looked up to Rossman.

#3) Another neighbor, another story

Beth’s attorney, Ron Chapman (who also represents Rohn), tells IM that Beth, an IU student, stayed in all night to work on papers due that day. Chapman also confirms that Rossman was with Spierer when she came to the apartment, and that Beth helped Rossman into bed. Valerie Sokolova, a neighbor, tells IM that Beth has said he went upstairs and, when he returned, Spierer was gone.“That was the last time Mike and Corey saw her,” says Sokolova.

http://www.indianapolismonthly.com/features/story.aspx?ID=1712477

According to the PI's, MB took LS over to JR's. So why all the lies? It would be easier to chalk these up as 'noise' if they were reporters re-writing stories from other articles, but these are accounts from witnesses. Meanwhile, other accounts (from HT and 'unofficially' through JR's roommates) say JR was telling people he watched Lauren walk out the door and down the street, with no mention of MB or CR being there.

If JR, MB and CR had nothing to do with her disappearance, why was it so hard to get their stories straight?

 

[Snapfade]

Wait, Lauren was still at Smallwood at 12:16am, then left with DR to go hang out at JR's, but DR returned home at 12:30 am?


http://www.indianapolismonthly.com/features/story.aspx?ID=1712477

Is this wrong?...

Good catch AbbeyR.....I dont understand how this has been overlooked til now....Im still trying to figure out, if and how its relevent but DR returning to SW within 15 minutes suprised me. . Couple things come to mind. I assume these times are verified by camaras at SW.. How likely is it that DR walked all the way to 5N....could he only went to 10th? maybe to secure drugs and LS met up with CR? or JR? at DD apt. at 10th & college... Was LS introducing DR to CR so CR could buy drugs...or visa versa ....might explain what fight was really about if DR brought back, Light or Cut bag of dope to ZO.....I know these are wild speculations but DR's quick return ,makes me think that he was on a mission leaving SW , and makes me think that DR's involvement on the night was Drug Related.

 

[imkeylime]

weird theory--what if the phone is the key piece of evidence? IMO she could have been looking for it; Someone might have picked it up at Kilroys after she left it that's why she tried to stop at 10th and College, went back to JRs and wanted to leave. Maybe she wanted to get the phone before Jesse did. This is where HT and BW come in. Did they give the phone to someone who was watching the game with them at SW so Jesse could see it? And that someone took it to 10th and College? It ended up at Kilroys with JW. The employee never states when the phone was found. JW could have been texting that phone all night into the morning with jealous threats. Someone who had the phone could have found out early that Lauren was missing and put the phone back at Kilroys. That someone could be innocent of her disappearance but guilty of causing her to panic over her phone. Another thing LE did was say that two phone calls were made from JRs phone, one to DR and to another guy. They did not say that other calls were not made.
... We only know JW took the phone, did he also claim the shoes? IDK, MOO, speculation, Abbey said throw theories out there.
Again, persons with the phone could be innocent of disappearance.

Snipped by me. The whole phone thing seems strange. Not just that it was left at Sports, but also when LS last used it (per CS). It makes me wonder if she 1) was out of it early on, 2) was avoiding someone's texts/calls, 3) didn't have access to her phone (why?), or 4) was tired of being attached to her phone (it happens).

Since she seemed OK leaving SW, 1) seems less likely. 2) and 4) could suggest she changed her mind about meeting JW. 3) interests me most. Someone could have moved/took/concealed her phone, a potential set-up for ???.

CR, for instance, allegedly wanted to hook up with LS and may have wanted to curtail interruptions. I wonder why LS and CR went back to SW in the first place. If he wanted to hook up, I'm not sure her place would be the first pick. MB was at 5N, but maybe they have an "agreement"? Or, as you note, somebody may have wanted to cause trouble. Girls can be pretty catty at that age, IMO.

The simple answer is that she just put the phone down at Sports and was inebriated enough to forget it or planned on going back for it. But maybe there's more to it?

 

[imkeylime]

Good catch AbbeyR.....I dont understand how this has been overlooked til now....Im still trying to figure out, if and how its relevent but DR returning to SW within 15 minutes suprised me. . Couple things come to mind. I assume these times are verified by camaras at SW.. How likely is it that DR walked all the way to 5N....could he only went to 10th? maybe to secure drugs and LS met up with CR? or JR? at DD apt. at 10th & college... Was LS introducing DR to CR so CR could buy drugs...or visa versa ....might explain what fight was really about if DR brought back, Light or Cut bag of dope to ZO.....I know these are wild speculations but DR's quick return ,makes me think that he was on a mission leaving SW , and makes me think that DR's involvement on the night was Drug Related.

The thing about DR, though, is that he's allegedly the one POI who took an FBI-administered polygraph, I believe. He also supposedly took Klonopin with LS, though I believe JR is the one who shared that info.

I wonder if there's any other reason DR didn't hang around JR's ... i.e., he didn't like the company (doubtful?) or he, too, was feeling the effects of the night. Or maybe he just had a better offer or something else to do?

 

[Snapfade]

The thing about DR, though, is that he's allegedly the one POI who took an FBI-administered polygraph, I believe. He also supposedly took Klonopin with LS, though I believe JR is the one who shared that info.

I wonder if there's any other reason DR didn't hang around JR's ... i.e., he didn't like the company (doubtful?) or he, too, was feeling the effects of the night. Or maybe he just had a better offer or something else to do?

I agree that DR 100% innocent.. But, if Drugs were involved in LS disappearance DR would know who had and was using drugs. I sure would like to know his theory... DR's very quick return also.brings 10th &college appts into play not only after Kilroys but before JR's party too.

 

[AbbeyR]

Good catch AbbeyR.....I dont understand how this has been overlooked til now....Im still trying to figure out, if and how its relevent but DR returning to SW within 15 minutes suprised me. . Couple things come to mind. I assume these times are verified by camaras at SW.. How likely is it that DR walked all the way to 5N....could he only went to 10th? maybe to secure drugs and LS met up with CR? or JR? at DD apt. at 10th & college... Was LS introducing DR to CR so CR could buy drugs...or visa versa ....might explain what fight was really about if DR brought back, Light or Cut bag of dope to ZO.....I know these are wild speculations but DR's quick return ,makes me think that he was on a mission leaving SW , and makes me think that DR's involvement on the night was Drug Related.

Yeah, I don't know what to make of DR. The points you are making raise some questions, for sure.

One thing that stands out to me though is that (if the timing reported is correct) this is just one more thing about JR's story that wasn't true. In that same Lohud article where HT gave JR's account of the night on his behalf by recounting the story he told her (the one where he supposedly watched Lauren walk off without stumbling) HT also said that Lauren went there with DR:

Spierer, Rohn and Rosenbaum watched a basketball game at Rosenbaum's, said Tamir, who is friends with Rohn and Rosenbaum. They were joined there by Corey Rossman, who lives two doors down, she said. Tamir said Mike Beth, Rossman's roommate, was also there.
A while later, Rossman and Spierer went to a bar, Tamir said, and Rohn returned to Smallwood.

http://www.lohud.com/article/201106...w-details-her-night-parents-TV?nclick_check=1

Except, they weren't actually watching the game by the time Lauren got there. And if the time given by DR's own lawyer is correct, it doesn't look like he would have spent any time at JR's at all...?

By JR's account we would think he didn't see CR or MB again for the rest of the night after Lauren went to the bar with CR. Except, we have since heard he was there too, and that MB brought Lauren over to his place later on.

Once again, it's possible there were a few mistakes in the reporting of 3rd hand stories. But looking at every piece of information that the POI at 5 N told friends/ the media/ lawyers, it seems like everything -- literally everything -- they said is contradicted by something else.

 

[AbbeyR]

OT (sorta):

I noticed that Voyles was hired as the defense attorney for the woman who is a suspect in the explosion in Richmond Hill. In both articles I read about this, they emphasized how Voyles is known for making deals...

Shirley's switch to Voyles adds yet another wrinkle to what already is a case that has drawn national interest.

Local attorneys told The Star that Shirley's shift to Voyles signals two possible outcomes: Shirley believes Voyles will be able to raise doubt about her alleged involvement because there isn't enough evidence. Or Shirley is leaning toward cooperating with prosecutors for a deal -- something that would benefit the prosecution, because it would provide proof beyond the circumstantial evidence on which the case is now built.

http://www.indystar.com/article/20130111/NEWS02/301110334/1001/NEWS?nclick_check=1

 

[imkeylime]

I agree that DR 100% innocent.. But, if Drugs were involved in LS disappearance DR would know who had and was using drugs. I sure would like to know his theory... DR's very quick return also.brings 10th &college appts into play not only after Kilroys but before JR's party too.

IMO, it seems likely that he's innocent in terms of LS' disappearance but not in terms of everything that went down, especially since he "bookends" the night, i.e., he left SW with LS, and he was called when she was allegedly going to return.

That has always interested me ... why call DR and not one of her roommates? I guess the explanation was to give her a ride back to SW. But if JR vs. LS made the call, I'd guess that it had to do with what went on earlier in the night.

 

[doubtingthomas]

Has it been stated in any reports why DR went with LS to JR's? I know he lives in her building, but there were other people in her room at the time. Why was he singled out to go with her? The picture shows her walking down the hallway by herself. So, if DR was in her room with all the others, wouldn't he be on camera with her? Just was wondering if he had ever stated why she asked him to go with her and why.