IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #29

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Next, someone will reply that there is no "type" of person that tries date rape. To that I say BS. There is a type, again, rich or poor, someone disturbed enough to do this. <snipped for space>

I agree, there is a type that date rapes. There are recent studies that are really compelling about this that talk about why date/ acquaintance rape happens so frequently, what kind of person does it, and why a huge majority are unreported and unpunished. (See links) One of the more obvious points is that acquaintance rape happens all the time because people can get away with it. Guys who sexually assault intoxicated girls aren't worried about being arrested or being 'shunned forever', because these things aren't actually very likely to happen.

You know what's telling about IDS --They actually report sexual assaults. Type "assault" into the search box and browse the articles that come up. There might be a couple stories about random attacks by strangers. There are countless about girls reporting being sexually assaulted and/or drugged by friends, acquaintances, at frat parties, etc. A lot of those articles end with a blurb about the victim not wanting to pursue an investigation/ charges.

I really recommend reading/ listening to any of the following They are short but good articles that talk about what the stats don't tell us -- what 'sexual assault' really looks like, how to identify the 'red flags' etc. They also challenge what seem to be some commonly held assumptions about sexual assault that I think are relevant here.

Myths That Make It Hard To Stop Campus Rape:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124272157
(This is part of a series - one of the linked articles is about IU)

Predator theory/ Undetected rapists:
http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2010/03/25/predator-theory/

Meet the predators:
http://www.shakesville.com/2009/11/meet-predators.html
 
BBM. There is absolutely no evidence that Lauren was laying anywhere unconscious and/or vomiting. IF everything went down as you say, maybe. First, "we" decide these guys are guilty of conspiracy, murder, and rape and then disposing of their friend's body; then, "we" suppose all the scenarios that could have made those things happen. This speculation is no better than speculating that maybe these guys weren't the types to do this.
Next, someone will reply that there is no "type" of person that tries date rape. To that I say BS. There is a type, again, rich or poor, someone disturbed enough to do this. For CR to rufie Lauren, he would know that A) he was at least gonna get the bjesus beat out of him for it if not outright killed by those underground frat boys that Jesse was the leader of
B) going to get arrested C) totally shunned by everyone forever. IMO, CR did not rufie Lauren, but they both showed signs of being rufied.

I understand that date rape is usually someone you know, and that yes, it happens alot, and anyone, rich or poor, could attempt it. And, these guys could be lying, etc.
Date rape happens without rufies. I'm not good at stats, but I'll bet that date rape happens more often than not WITHOUT rufies. And, people are slipped rufies for more reasons than date rape. About ten years ago, sorority girls were busted selling rufies!! Once I overheard two employees (coeds) talking about splitting a rufie before they went out. I asked, "are you crazy!?" they replied that half a rufie made them really effed up with only one drink, so they don't get all the calories. Cross my heart. Slipping someone a rufie is a good way to rob someone.

I also understand that it doesn't have to only be an unsavoury person who did this, but unsavoury people do hang out at Kilroys looking to take advantage of/beat up/ deal drugs to college students. It's a huge cottage industry here.



Indiana Daily Student ran an article Feb 2 about a sexual assault on campus at 4:30 in the morning. A young man was assaulted at knifepoint by a man with dreds.
Very Veritas, do you remember what that CIA psychic said about Lauren's abductor? Dreds. And at the same time, 4:30 a.m.
I live in Bloomington, and one of my concerns is that this person , maybe not this one exactly, is out there, and if so, probably feeling pretty damn smug.
Unless someone is being particularly stalked by someone, every horrible crime committed on an unsuspecting innocent person happens because the unsuspecting person is there at just the moment the bad person is. And what are those chances? Probably the same as being on a carnival ride that
goes off the rails and kills people, or on a plane that crashes. And yet,
we read about these things and never think it could happen to us.
IMO, either JW or random/random by sight.

Yes IX there is proof of a circumstantial nature. Since I'm not part of LE or one of the Defense or Prosecution, I'm privy only to public information - I'm a WS'r. The proof that exists is the eyewitness accounts of Lauren's condition and that of CR's condition, and the Video/Camera footage of the same. This is reinforced by PI's who know more and have experience in this area. So the picture is that LS was way more incapacitated than CR. She hit her head falling over from a sitting position, and then later fell face down not protecting with hands, and THAT is the last known "proof" of her state and whereabouts. At the same time LS was barely able to get to her feet unassisted and was being supported and carried by CR, CR was tagged once in the face on camera. He didn't go unconscious, he didn't fall and the next day there were no signs of being hit. CLEARLY LS suffered far greater injuries than CR. Clearly CR was capable of not only walking, but also of carrying LS. Yet MB's story is a 180 degree contradiction, totally swapping the condition of the 2, just minutes afterwards.
You are asking me to believe that suddenly within minutes Lauren perked up and was fine but then CR is the one that collapsed? I call BS!!!

Whatever CR's condition, LS's condition was far worse. So there is no more BS in the series of events and POI's stories than that.

One thing about Rape defense is that it usually involves painting the victim as being a *advertiser censored*, tramp, asking for it, etc... Very interesting to me that MB's (and via his Lawyer's statements) seems to be going down that same road with LS... Basically, that she was asking for it. Meanwhile CR is coddled and tucked in beddy bye? That is not rational.
 
Yes IX there is proof of a circumstantial nature. Since I'm not part of LE or one of the Defense or Prosecution, I'm privy only to public information - I'm a WS'r. The proof that exists is the eyewitness accounts of Lauren's condition and that of CR's condition, and the Video/Camera footage of the same. This is reinforced by PI's who know more and have experience in this area. So the picture is that LS was way more incapacitated than CR. She hit her head falling over from a sitting position, and then later fell face down not protecting with hands, and THAT is the last known "proof" of her state and whereabouts. At the same time LS was barely able to get to her feet unassisted and was being supported and carried by CR, CR was tagged once in the face on camera. He didn't go unconscious, he didn't fall and the next day there were no signs of being hit. CLEARLY LS suffered far greater injuries than CR. Clearly CR was capable of not only walking, but also of carrying LS. Yet MB's story is a 180 degree contradiction, totally swapping the condition of the 2, just minutes afterwards.
You are asking me to believe that suddenly within minutes Lauren perked up and was fine but then CR is the one that collapsed? I call BS!!! Whatever CR's condition, LS's condition was far worse. So there is no more BS in the series of events and POI's stories than that.

One thing about Rape defense is that it usually involves painting the victim as being a *advertiser censored*, tramp, asking for it, etc... Very interesting to me that MB's (and via his Lawyer's statements) seems to be going down that same road with LS... Basically, that she was asking for it. Meanwhile CR is coddled and tucked in beddy bye? That is not rational.

no, not asking you to believe that. Could she have improved in over an hour from that? possibly.
If LE didn't have a suspect, would it help their image to not tell the public they have exculpatory evidence clearing the POIs? Sure! Since these guys
haven't cooperated, why should they go out of their way to tell the public anything? If they do have a suspect, or at least kinda know it isn't the POIs, now that would be putting the public in danger.
Heard from a student that now they are selling marshmallows with xanax
in them. I guess actual marshmallows. I said to him, "you know that's probably not really xanax, right?"
 
To those who were involved in the early searching, did searchers look under manhole covers?
 
Being the last known people to see her alive that evening/morning is plenty to make them appear guilty. They'd be stupid to not get lawyers for that fact alone (considering the circumstances) and seem connected enough to get the advice that they need lawyers ASAP.

It's not having lawyers that makes them look guilty -- It's that despite having lawyers (lawyers that were all in communication with each other the first week they were hired, according to Chapman), they still can't tell a story that makes sense, or that is consistent.

You can have a lawyer and still cooperate with the investigation of a missing friend. Instead, they have given totally misleading and false information about things that would seem to be irrelevant if Lauren really walked away from their apartments.

Recap:

CR: amnesia defense (enough said), the story that Lauren 'helped' CR home (not true) and the story that Lauren said she 'wanted to party', MB declined and then Lauren left (conflicts with MB's stories)

MB(/DR) : Lawyer's statements totally contradict the PI's evidence and accounts of their own clients. (How long was Lauren at CR/MB's? How did she get to JR's? Where was MB? Who saw her leave? These are simple questions that should have objective answers that don't change over time.)

JR: Lauren went missing on a Friday morning, by Tuesday (at the latest) had hired Jim Voyles and left Bloomington. Defense Team won't confirm or deny the stories that he hand fed to friends to get to the media.

None have taken an LE polygraph
All have given misleading / untrue statements


The lawyers can only work with the stories they are given, I guess. That 'Amnesia' is the best story anyone could come up with for the last person to actually be seen with LS speaks volumes, IMO.
 
One thing about Rape defense is that it usually involves painting the victim as being a *advertiser censored*, tramp, asking for it, etc... Very interesting to me that MB's (and via his Lawyer's statements) seems to be going down that same road with LS... Basically, that she was asking for it. Meanwhile CR is coddled and tucked in beddy bye? That is not rational.

Agreed. The defense lawyers (reinforced by 'anonymous sources' ) have also given statements that are obviously specifically designed to imply that:

- The POIs did not provide Lauren with alcohol
- If Lauren took drugs she did so willingly and got them somewhere else
- Lauren was conscious and went home with CR of her own free will.
- She was conscious and sober (enough) to leave JR's herself.
(ETA) - The POI weren't ever together in the same place

There are reasons for these specific statements by defense lawyers!
 
It's not having lawyers that makes them look guilty -- It's that despite having lawyers (lawyers that were all in communication with each other the first week they were hired, according to Chapman), they still can't tell a story that makes sense, or that is consistent.

You can have a lawyer and still cooperate with the investigation of a missing friend. Instead, they have given totally misleading and false information about things that would seem to be irrelevant if Lauren really walked away from their apartments.

Recap:

CR: amnesia defense (enough said), the story that Lauren 'helped' CR home (not true) and the story that Lauren said she 'wanted to party', MB declined and then Lauren left (conflicts with MB's stories)

MB(/DR) : Lawyer's statements totally contradict the PI's evidence and accounts of their own clients. (How long was Lauren at CR/MB's? How did she get to JR's? Where was MB? Who saw her leave? These are simple questions that should have objective answers that don't change over time.)

JR: Lauren went missing on a Friday morning, by Tuesday (at the latest) had hired Jim Voyles and left Bloomington. Defense Team won't confirm or deny the stories that he hand fed to friends to get to the media.

None have taken an LE polygraph
All have given misleading / untrue statements


The lawyers can only work with the stories they are given, I guess. That 'Amnesia' is the best story anyone could come up with for the last person to actually be seen with LS speaks volumes, IMO.

Personally, I doubt that their actual stories... the accounts the police have and would have cross referenced as best they could.... vary as much as you think they do. Once you filter out the noise, the gist of the stories are the same.

Friends, neighbors, etc telling reporters what they heard told them by someone else who themselves were only repeating someone else's information isn't exactly a lot to go on. The lawyers, speaking off the cuff, and with an agenda aren't necessarily to be held to any higher standards themselves. It's not like the lawyers have sat down and read off prepared statements telling us what their clients actually told LE and/or the PI's.

We have to keep in mind there has to be an official story in the police files.

I still hold that if their stories vary by as much as some think they do then LE would be much further along in this case. LE has had access to their stories and has had the ability to question the sources of the varying stories. Plus, reporting has been sloppy at best. Especially initially. And LE hasn't been forthcoming either. That's how we get the noise we've heard.

A major contradiction in their stories would be the type of thing LE could (and would) make hay with. A credible source claiming they told them a differing story would be as well.

My opinion is that any apparent contradictions would've been thoroughly vetted by LE and are an absolute waste of time to even bother with here... barring new info (Like PsOI interviews or a release of transcripts). If there was something there, LE has certainly already found it and it apparently hasn't been enough to act upon or just led to a dead end.

A more productive area IMHO would be trying to reason as to why CS made the statement about the last time LS used her phone as well as suss out how that factors into the timeline and where DR was supposed to have been.

Anyone is free to think what they want of course but this seems more like grasping at straws to me. Maybe not in the first weeks of the case, but certainly after all this time I cannot imagine LE would be blind to apparent contradictions and not chase them down. Even if these contradictions do exist in some form, they are not the smoking gun or else I think action would've been taken.

So saying all that... what it really boils down to is you don't believe their story. THAT I can understand. I have my doubts as well, but it's more to do with an always highly suspect 'amnesia' claim, LS needing to be in better condition than CR rather quickly which doesn't exactly square with the PI's claims based on witnesses and/or video, and some questionable lost time in all of that (time to get from CR/MB's to JR's and then leave).
 
So saying all that... what it really boils down to is you don't believe their story.

No, what it boils down to is that the information they have provided doesn't add up. There isn't even a coherent story to "believe" or "disbelieve"!

The statements the lawyers have given are not 'noise' - they have been hired to represent the POI.

And, I'm sure LE does have this info, and more. But you keep acting like conflicting stories would be enough to bring this case to trial -- That's not at all likely, and I'm certain that you know this, since you appear to have quite a bit of knowledge about legal issues...?

In most cases, charges come after a victim is located because of the difficulty in prosecuting a case where there is only a 'missing person'.
 
From the IM article I posted upthread:

Jim Voyles has a rule. “I never advise my clients to speak to police,” he says. “The opposite. Now, after I interview the client and I know something about the case, if I think it’s an advantage to sit down with the police to clear up some kind of a problem, I might suggest we do it.”
 
Are you able to share with us what you saw on the cams?

Yes and no.
Specifics are verboden, (not due to anything seen, just Company Policy).

A person might indicate something along the lines of; It would not be a surprise if a late-teen male skateboarder, a female pedestrian, (not Lauren), and a smallish 2 door car had been observed on N. Walnut St. between 9th and 10th Street during a specific period of time on a specific date.

See what I did there?
 
Not to open Pandora's Box but I don't think CR or any of the POIs rufied Lauren.
And I don't think any of her local friends or new acquaintances tried to rape her or had a plan to do this. If there was anything of this nature it would either be the out of town guest(s) or satellite roommates/friends of roommates of ZO and AB. Or big chance unsavory persons did this at Kilroy's with bad intentions to both of them.
That's not how these kids operate. None of these guys had any trouble getting laid if
they wanted to, what with the money, the ya-yo, the 3 story town homes and swanky
cars. More than that, Lauren's boyfriend was a big shot in their group, and hitting on his
girlfriend would be big trouble socially. Lauren was just as popular and I can imagine
hitting on Jesse would not go over well either.
Every story changes each time it is told. If all their stories lined up exactly, that to
me would be even more odd then all of them being slightly different. What are the odds of all of these witnesses and retellers of scenarios being drunk or high or both? Not necessarily when they are recounting their story to LE or reporters, but when they actually heard it from someone second hand /saw something/heard it from a POI?
It would seem to me, IMO, MOO, that somehow JR got his hands on a really good batch of something from outta town and everyone was running around getting it and maybe fighting over it.
I think Lauren was running around trying to find her phone to get ahold of Jesse.
She might've thought he was at 10th and College or that her phone was there. Sure, CR
could have suggested that they go out. But, at least according to the POIs stories, Lauren wanted to go home, and she wanted her phone. Did she borrow MBs phone to call JW? The idea that LE tells us about 2 calls only does not mean there aren't other calls that they will not reveal. Besides those 2 calls, she made a last call from SW
before leaving, JW made several texts?calls? to her phone at Kilroys, and that's all we know. Besides POIs, would like to see HT's, BW's, ZO's, AB's, DR's and JW's phone calls after 12:15 that night.

I tend to agree with you here. I would love to know who some of the "satellites" are. I think that is exactly where the answer lies. Someone just close enough to know her and "follow" her without appearing to be doing so, but not so close to be anyone that would appear to have a direct connection and be in the spotlight. I think this person exploited his friends wealth and access to girls, I don't think he was a major drug dealer but rather a user with low level connections - probably bought/mooched more drugs from this circle of friends than provided. Possibly and out of town guest but I think it's more likely he's a local. I think he's one of those guys that people think, 'why is he here?' but he always is, so they get used to him even though he stays on the fringes of the circle of friends. I think that is why she's never been found and why he's not one of the main POI's why we're all so frustrated by the huge missing pieces of this puzzle.

Looks like I've decided I'm some kind of profiler. Lord help me.
 
Yes and no.
Specifics are verboden, (not due to anything seen, just Company Policy).

A person might indicate something along the lines of; It would not be a surprise if a late-teen male skateboarder, a female pedestrian, (not Lauren), and a smallish 2 door car had been observed on N. Walnut St. between 9th and 10th Street during a specific period of time on a specific date.

See what I did there?

Thanks Btown :)

So, based on your knowledge of the cameras around 5N and video that LE might have, do you have any insight or thoughts about how relevant the camera data might be to this case, or whether you think any scenarios could be ruled in or out based on it?
 
It seems to me that there could be a lot of cam sources that could rule all sorts of scenarios out and could be a tripwire for liars. Prosecution certainly would hold such cards closely.

1) I'm not sure if Salzman even had a camera... but ok, maybe he does.
2) Waffle House
3) Buildings to the north of 10th and College Building (Possible)
4) 10th and College cams
5) The same Alley cam that captured the last known footage of LS
6) The cams that captured the "white truck"
7) SW cams
8) Other possible cams (e.g. around Kilroy's, on 11th, etc...)

But I'm not sure what you are suggesting?[/QUOTE]

BBM--I'm suggesting that Salzmann turned everything over to LE.
IF Lauren left JRs, she might be on his video.
These POIs seem guilty, but there is a slight chance that they're telling the truth. Also a chance that if Lauren was slipped a rufie at Kilroys, CR was
slipped one, too. Motive? possibly robbery.


"Also a chance that if Lauren was slipped a rufie at Kilroys, CR was
slipped one, too. Motive? possibly robbery
"

Right, and we still don't know WHY LS and CR went back to SW or if they were called over there by someone. The story is the fight was ZO popping CR in the chin for being disrespectful to LS and then to ZO when called him out.

Students who spotted the pair told the New York Post Lauren was 'clearly very inebriated.' They also said Rossman had been bothering her and had then got angry when they asked him to stop. 'He was being overly aggressive...being so belligerent,' one told the paper. From:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...message-daughters-attacker.html#ixzz2LTsUgViF


That's possible, but WHY were ZO & Co. at SW and had ZO or any of his friends that were at SW also been at Kilroys at the same time as LS and CR? WHY did LS & CR go there to begin with? If CR/LS were holding, who would've/could've known or suspected they were holding? Pretty much anyone that heard LS allegedly talking about doing coke and klonopin at Kilroys. Also, Maybe DR went with LS to 5N and then went right back to SW simply because he's not the that JR is didn't want her walk alone? If he walked her there, it would logical that someone might later call him to come walk her back. If DR was doing Klonopin with LS - like we've heard, but didn't do coke, then he would've been feeling pretty lazy and getting tired. That tells me that the coke came into play after she got to JR's, but before going to Kilroys. This excludes DR from all the coke and pretty much excludes him totally.

I had to step away for a couple of weeks -I was getting for lack of a better term, consumed by LS, and needed a fresh set of eyes so I want to just run through the 'known' timeline and if I have any of this wrong someone please correct me. I'm not going to be concerned with exact times just the correct sequence of events.

LS and CR go to Kilroys and DR being sleepy (if what I propose above is correct, if not then who knows) goes back home and crashes. Somewhere between JR's and at Kilroys LS is dosed with a roofie - is CR?

Either way, she's going down fast with the mixture of klonopin, alcohol, ya and the roofie, so she and CR are sky from kilroys and she's so FU'd at this point that she leaves her shoes and phone behind. Likely leaving them right where she was just prior to feeling the effects of the roofie.

So they go where? Straight to SW? Why? Maybe she thinks she left her phone there and was going to retrieve it. To get drugs? I doubt it in her condition. Besides the Klonopin was at DR's (right?) and the coke was at JR's (right?) So, if she wasn't going there for drugs, and I don't think she was, then she she would've probably been looking for her phone, but if not that, then WHY? If someone called them to come SW to rob them (or for any other reason that one would not have shared with LE) they would've had to call her before she lost her phone or called CR. I don't think this happened. I think she forgot she ever had her phone and went to SW to get it. So, if no one did call LS or CR to come to SW then she probably wanted her phone so she wouldn't miss JW's call/text later. I think that reasoning would sufficiently explain why they went to SW in the first place.

Next, LS and CR go up to the 5th floor lobby but no further and don't enter anyone's apartment.

Then the altercation between CR and ZO (who else was with ZO?).

Then LS's out of the elevator fall.

Out the door of SW and LS and CR start to head back to 5N. Was anyone seen on camera exiting the building very shortly after CR and LS?

Next, we have the alley fall and presumably the loss of LS's key card and coin purse deali-o,

Then they exit the alley

They enter LS's girlfriends building, knock on the girls door getting no answer they come right back out.

They sit on the front stoop of this building.

Next we have LS's slump & bump on the stairs.

The alleged witness that saw this asks if she's ok, CR says she's fine, he's got it.

Then LS's non attempt to avoid the face plant to the concrete.

CR slings her over his back and carries her toward 5N. (is their entrance into 5N on video?)

They enter CR's apartment.

CR pukes.

CR goes to bed.

MB takes LS to JR's. Does he leave immediately or hang around for awhile?

JR obverses LS blackening eyes and asks what happened. She says she doesn't know. What has MB had to say about her facial injuries. Did he see them, did he ask?

JR says LS uses his phone and calls ? then she calls DR looking for her phone. OR JR calls ? then calls DR, the guy that walked her there earlier. As any self respecting gentleman of means would rather than walk her home himself.

JR alleges that she makes it to the corner of 11th without stumbling so as far as he's concerned she's fine to walk home barefoot, impaired without a phone or keys to get into her building once she gets there without having reached anyone to met her downstairs to let her in.

JW calls LS's phone and Kilroys staff answers it, prompting him to call HT and met up with her on campus sometime around 2pm to get a key and check on LS and when he finds she's not there and hasn't been he calls LS's parents and the search for LS begins approximately 12 hours after the last known video footage of LS exiting the alley at 2:51 am


So. What do I have wrong or what have I missed/left out?
 
Yes and no.
Specifics are verboden, (not due to anything seen, just Company Policy).

A person might indicate something along the lines of; It would not be a surprise if a late-teen male skateboarder, a female pedestrian, (not Lauren), and a smallish 2 door car had been observed on N. Walnut St. between 9th and 10th Street during a specific period of time on a specific date.

See what I did there?

Sure did. Pretty slick.
 
So. What do I have wrong or what have I missed/left out?

I would add more questions:

If the altercation at Smallwood was to protect LS because CR was bothering her then why did she leave with him?

If the altercation at Smallwood was to protect LS because CR was bothering her or they felt she she shouldn't be with him then why did no one stop her from following CR and did they simply watch them leave? If so, why? And/or did anyone from the altercation follow them or call anyone?
 
Somehow I doubt that people are going around slipping roofies into drinks at Kilroys to rob college students.
 
In most cases, charges come after a victim is located because of the difficulty in prosecuting a case where there is only a 'missing person'.

Conflicting statements should give LE plenty of leverage and help fill in some blanks. Plus, in the majority of the speculated scenarios involving 5N LE has a 'ground zero' to investigate for evidence.

It's one thing to have several random areas where something might've occurred that need to be searched.... it's entirely another if your chief PsOI give conflicting accounts making them look even more guilty and give you a ground zero to search for evidence with a fine toothed comb.
 
Yes and no.
Specifics are verboden, (not due to anything seen, just Company Policy).

A person might indicate something along the lines of; It would not be a surprise if a late-teen male skateboarder, a female pedestrian, (not Lauren), and a smallish 2 door car had been observed on N. Walnut St. between 9th and 10th Street during a specific period of time on a specific date.

See what I did there?
hi Btown, would there be any video if she didn't turn right but went across College going east and then turning left across 11th into the alley leading to House Bar's patio?
 
Conflicting statements should give LE plenty of leverage and help fill in some blanks. Plus, in the majority of the speculated scenarios involving 5N LE has a 'ground zero' to investigate for evidence.

It's one thing to have several random areas where something might've occurred that need to be searched.... it's entirely another if your chief PsOI give conflicting accounts making them look even more guilty and give you a ground zero to search for evidence with a fine toothed comb.

BBM: Yes, I hope so!

Wasn't JW and CR/MB's place not searched until almost a month after LS went missing? When was JR's apartment searched? In the only article I could find, this wasn't confirmed.

http://www.heraldtimesonline.com/stories/2011/06/30/news.qp-2301833.sto
 
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