IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #31

[Chuz Life]

The bar manager interviewed by Tony Gatto and the witness who who saw LS fall and hit her head are the same person. This was confirmed by Gatto.

I read the same. Also there are news reports that the female bar manager was brought in for statements on a 2nd occasion. The reports also say that she could not identify Corey as the "mystery man."

The "mystery man" and CR are the same person. This was confirmed indirectly by LE from the beginning (when they said the person seen with Lauren was known to LE -- remember, at the time they were referring to Corey only as Lauren's 'companion') and directly by the Private Investigators who make it clear that the person who was carrying Lauren over his shoulders was Corey.

Not to be argumentative but that doesn't make it clear to me... that the police think (or have proven) that the 'mystery man' and CR are one and the same person. Not when the Bar Manager (witness) is claiming they are not.

We know about the timeline between the time Lauren and Corey left Smallwood to the time they are last seen on their way to 5 N because it has been confirmed by LE (and the PIs) based on video surveillance. If Lauren had made it back to 10th and College or to someone's apt. there, she would have been captured on video again.

I agree that she should have been... except that there might have been lights out in the Alley (north of College apartments) as Btown's images show - and the camera there would not work in total darkness.

"A camera located along Spierer's return route to Smallwood Plaza at 10th Street and College Avenue never captured any images of Spierer" (http://www.theindychannel.com/news/local-news/spierer-lawsuit-heads-to-federal-court). Btown has confirmed that ZO's apt. building has cameras at the entrances.

This is why I believe the authorities should release the details of what the security videos taken at College Apts and Village Apartments actually do show.

 

[AbbeyR]

Not to be argumentative but that doesn't make it clear to me... that the police think (or have proven) that the 'mystery man' and CR are one and the same person. Not when the Bar Manager (witness) is claiming they are not.

The account of Lauren falling and hitting her head and being flung over the man's shoulders are the same in both accounts. Gatto confirms that he and the PIs are talking about the same witness. Corey was captured on video surveillance carrying Lauren, and no one, including the POIs, has suggested that anyone else was there. LE from the beginning has said there was no 'mystery man'.

It seems pretty clear to me! JMO

 

[Chuz Life]

The account of Lauren falling and hitting her head and being flung over the man's shoulders are the same in both accounts. Gatto confirms that he and the PIs are talking about the same witness. Corey was captured on video surveillance carrying Lauren, and no one, including the POIs, has suggested that anyone else was there. LE from the beginning has said there was no 'mystery man'.

It seems pretty clear to me! JMO

Thanks Abbey.

That's as reasonable an explanation as I could have expected.

Now I just need to find a way to reconcile that with the claims by the bar manager - who didn't think it was him... and the statements made by Zoe Camp that says they knocked on her door.

It just doesn't add up (to me).

 

[Ixchel13]

The account of Lauren falling and hitting her head and being flung over the man's shoulders are the same in both accounts. Gatto confirms that he and the PIs are talking about the same witness. Corey was captured on video surveillance carrying Lauren, and no one, including the POIs, has suggested that anyone else was there. LE from the beginning has said there was no 'mystery man'.

It seems pretty clear to me! JMO

But it is confusing, Abbey, especially if the video accounts are accurate because it has her coming out of the alley right at 3 a.m. or close to that, making it hard to be also hitting her head at 3:38 and the mystery man putting her over his shoulder UNLESS she did double back, and that's totally possible, because then you have a different mystery man, as the "witness" says, is not CR. That would make CR's story of being passed out at that time correct. Doubling back to 10th and College takes a mere minute, yes, one minute to turn around and return to 10th and College from 5N.
and Chuz, from the balcony of JR's, at any time, you can see to the corner and perhaps see someone start to turn right, but you cannot see someone totally round the corner. So, he could have watched her get to the corner and seem to be turning right. Then, because of the heavy trees, the sidewalk is very dark all the way to 10th and College. Because she was drunk, she could have decided to scoot over to that same alley to avoid a PI,
turning down the walkway between the houses and then get to the alley by crossing the very dark, scary parking lot until she got to the alley. In this way she could have run into various persons, including people she knew, or random strangers, also drunk and high, and nothing would be on camera.
What really blows me away every time I pass by this area is that NOTHING is the same, all new buildings everywhere, really, only the alley captured on film remains the same. Even Kilroys remodelled totally, seriously, the entire route she took is gone as it was.
What hasn't changed is the kids are still doing exactly what Lauren was doing, women are still being rufied and raped at "downtown bars", and even when this is reported, nothing is done to the "downtown bars". It's called "running a dive" and "aiding and abetting." The fact that they have an employee suspect from a "downtown bar" for raping a fellow employee is big to me, because this person could be point zero for a suspect, and it does point to my theory of these bar employees knowing that this rufie and rape thing is going on. You can't work in a bar night after night and not see and know this is going on.

 

[Chuz Life]

What really blows me away every time I pass by this area is that NOTHING is the same, all new buildings everywhere, really, only the alley captured on film remains the same. Even Kilroys remodelled totally, seriously, the entire route she took is gone as it was.
[/B]

I have an areil view of the neighborhood from 2011 which was cut and pasted from "Indianamap.org"

It's on my other computer and I can share it later or if anyone is interested... or, you can visit that site and create your own.

My intent was to map all of the routes - each with a different color - and to account for all of the times and key locations. However, there is so much disagreement and contradictions (in my opinion) that it's not possible to map it all out with any confidence that it is an accurate depiction.

 

[Jupiter812]

I was looking for some photos I took of the entrance where CR knocked on the door to the girls' apt at 10 & College but can't find them. I posted them once before. I did find my capture of this. At least it's real evidence. Really, the only thing new to discuss about this is the time stamp. I don't tweet so I don't know if time stamps are rounded off the nearest full hour, which time zone displays, etc.

 

[Jupiter812]

The bar manager interviewed by Tony Gatto and the witness who who saw LS fall and hit her head are the same person. This was confirmed by Gatto.

The "mystery man" and CR are the same person. This was confirmed indirectly by LE from the beginning (when they said the person seen with Lauren was known to LE -- remember, at the time they were referring to Corey only as Lauren's 'companion') and directly by the Private Investigators who make it clear that the person who was carrying Lauren over his shoulders was Corey.

We know about the timeline between the time Lauren and Corey left Smallwood to the time they are last seen on their way to 5 N because it has been confirmed by LE (and the PIs) based on video surveillance. If Lauren had made it back to 10th and College or to someone's apt. there, she would have been captured on video again. "A camera located along Spierer's return route to Smallwood Plaza at 10th Street and College Avenue never captured any images of Spierer" (http://www.theindychannel.com/news/local-news/spierer-lawsuit-heads-to-federal-court). Btown has confirmed that ZO's apt. building has cameras at the entrances.

Plus, IIRC, in the LOHUD anniversary video the PIs refer to a witness who saw CR knock on the door. PI says she was "an older woman who is not a student who was there to see a boy" something close to that anyway. Does that sound right or wrong?

Some permutations: This older woman could be the same person as the bar manager. The bar manager could have been wrong initially in not recognizing CR especially if she viewed his mug shot, and they could have interviewed her again with a more recent photo.

 

[bx2]

I don't tweet so I don't know if time stamps are rounded off the nearest full hour, which time zone displays, etc.

Timestamps are by the minute, no rounding. Time zone displayed is what is local to the viewer (i.e the person that captured your image was in EDT).

 

[bx2]

I find it odd that cameras at Smallwood could determine that CR and LS never made it to her room after Kilroys and the altercation.... but cameras could not confirm Zoe Camp's claim that CR and LS knocked on their door at 3:00 at the College Apartments.

From the now defunct Lohud article-

Shortly after 3 a.m. June 3, 2011, a drunken Spierer – who’d just fallen on her face and smacked her head on concrete – and her companion Corey Rossman rang the doorbell to Camp’s apartment, where she and her three roommates were asleep.

Since no one answered, the two left, with Rossman slinging Spierer over his shoulders as he carried her down the steps. An hour later, she vanished.

Tenth and College uses a buzzer system just inside the main doors if you don't have access, which would be the "doorbell" above imo. I haven't seen any account of them knocking on her door directly.

Which brings up the question, how did ZC come to find out that they tried to get ahold of her? CR had to have told her, right?

Hey buddy, any other memories you'd like to share??

 

[Jupiter812]

From the now defunct Lohud article-


Tenth and College uses a buzzer system just inside the main doors if you don't have access, which would be the "doorbell" above imo. I haven't seen any account of them knocking on her door directly.

Which brings up the question, how did ZC come to find out that they tried to get ahold of her? CR had to have told her, right?

Hey buddy, any other memories you'd like to share??

ZC and/or her roommates could have heard the buzzer (and looked at the time) then put 2 and 2 together when the timeline was reported.

 

[Kadence]

I'm also wondering how ZC knew who it was that came to visit?! If CR and LS came to visit, and we can't find LS, then who told ZC they came by? The witness from the PIs video? Did the witness know ZC?

So many unanswered questions, I can only imagine the frustration level of the Spierers, not to mention their pain. LE needs to release something and see if the public can help them put the pieces of the puzzle together, it's obvious, imho, that they can't do it on their own. While the release of any video may cause the Spierers pain in viewing their daughter's potential last moments alive, it will relieve a little of their anguish if someone remembers something from it and can lend credible information. The world today is, imho, visually-motivated and I think it's worth a shot to help find Lauren.

 

[VeryVeritas]

In my view, Zoe camp's claim that they knocked at 3:30 am and the bar manager's claim that she sees them on the steps at 3:38 am is plausible. But only if the combination of working cameras, their angle of views and non working cameras would have made their claims possible.

You are saying 2 things here that I have never seen before.
If possible please provide links to the source or previous posts on WS.

1) I have never seen a statement attributed to Zoe Camp that LS and CR were knocking on her door at 3:30am. What I remember is 2:30am.
Again 3:30 is a very important time, because MB was calling JR about LS at that same time. LS could not be in 2 places at once. So it would be very important to know exactly which time she is saying.

2) snipped this one out after reading Abbey's statement.

 

[monkey222]

Can someone help clarify if there were 2 female witnesses or 1..? Who saw and/or heard LS being slung over shoulder of dark skinned guy..and when LS did the head thud from the stairs sitting/falling outside. .ZCs? I think..apt. I am recalling first witness seeing LS over shoulder..and noting time on street clock?? which either had or had not the correct time. This person was manager of a business..was this a bar or a spa??? Was this same witness who saw head hit at apts. These reports indicated older girl going to visit male friend. Prob same person?? just trying to clarify. Thx.

 

[VeryVeritas]

The bar manager interviewed by Tony Gatto and the witness who who saw LS fall and hit her head are the same person. This was confirmed by Gatto.

The "mystery man" and CR are the same person. This was confirmed indirectly by LE from the beginning (when they said the person seen with Lauren was known to LE -- remember, at the time they were referring to Corey only as Lauren's 'companion') and directly by the Private Investigators who make it clear that the person who was carrying Lauren over his shoulders was Corey.

We know about the timeline between the time Lauren and Corey left Smallwood to the time they are last seen on their way to 5 N because it has been confirmed by LE (and the PIs) based on video surveillance. If Lauren had made it back to 10th and College or to someone's apt. there, she would have been captured on video again. "A camera located along Spierer's return route to Smallwood Plaza at 10th Street and College Avenue never captured any images of Spierer" (http://www.theindychannel.com/news/local-news/spierer-lawsuit-heads-to-federal-court). Btown has confirmed that ZO's apt. building has cameras at the entrances.

Thanks Abbey, somehow I missed that the Bar Manager was also the head slam witness. wow... that's a big one. But now it muddies the waters for me. The Bar Manager was at first not considered credible by LE because of the 3:38 time, is that not correct? This timeframe had to be 2:38 right? Especially since you have asserted for a long time now that it was CR that was carrying LS when the Bar Manager witnessed. It would totally be in conflict with MB and JR's story if it was 3:38 so it had to be 2:38 if all of this has been reconciled. Correct?

 

[Chuz Life]

You are saying 2 things here that I have never seen before.
If possible please provide links to the source or previous posts on WS.

1) I have never seen a statement attributed to Zoe Camp that LS and CR were knocking on her door at 3:30am. What I remember is 2:30am.
Again 3:30 is a very important time, because MB was calling JR about LS at that same time. LS could not be in 2 places at once. So it would be very important to know exactly which time she is saying.

2) snipped this one out after reading Abbey's statement.

Well, I don't know if it was sleep deprivation a typo or something else but in my defense I was only putting forth a theory when I posted that. (No excuse, I know)... I would like to know if there is any evidence which shows (proves) that CR and LS actually tried to visit Zoe Camp's apartment.... and I too would like to know the exact time that took place.

I can't give you a reliable source for that event because I'm still searching for it myself.

I know that I am now (as I was in that previous post) trying to confirm all of the times and events so far reported.

I'm sorry if I added any confusion with my earlier theory.

 

[Chuz Life]

Thanks Abbey, somehow I missed that the Bar Manager was also the head slam witness. wow... that's a big one. But now it muddies the waters for me. The Bar Manager was at first not considered credible by LE because of the 3:38 time, is that not correct? This timeframe had to be 2:38 right? Especially since you have asserted for a long time now that it was CR that was carrying LS when the Bar Manager witnessed. It would totally be in conflict with MB and JR's story if it was 3:38 so it had to be 2:38 if all of this has been reconciled. Correct?

This has been the source for my confusion and frustration as well. It's also why I tried to make it work (in my theory) with Zoe camp's statement about when CR and LS tried to visit her room.

Why is it that the Bar manager's time recollection must be treated as wrong and not the time recollection of Zoe Camp or anyone else?

LE has not done us any favors by speculating themselves about what time the Bar Manager actually read on the clock.

 

[Jupiter812]

It's not possible (perhaps intentionally so) to lay out Lauren's and CR's "exact" path and times. I do think the original map may be inaccurate due to evidence and findings after the map was made and it was never updated.

For example: Rather than making a bee line from Smallwood north through the alleyway all the way to the gravel lot (as shown on the "official" map), I think they turned east on Tenth and this is when they went to ZC's apartment at Tenth and College.

They are either witnessed or recorded (1) exiting the glass door of the apt bldg entrance (it faces College) and (2) going down the stairs when he carries her slung across his back. Then they walk west and turn right into the alleyway towards the gravel lot.

See how this path works with the known times...

 

[Jacobite]

An account by Doubtingthomas provides a third version of the only female witness. He said she first observed Lauren leaving Smallwood.. That should clear up the time discrepancies and place her around
2:44 AM.

 

[Jacobite]

Many have confused 10th and College Village with 10th and College Apartments. Once included me.
So, where did Zoe. live?

 

[Jacobite]

If I can't believe the witnesses, should I believe reports told to me about dogs? They point to CR and something going wrong before 5N