IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #32

[AbbeyR]

Agreed. This is actually the first thing that got me interested in the case also - it stood out to me immediately as odd that she was reported missing so soon by the boyfriend. It's never really been explained, we just speculate as to why his worry escalated so quickly.

If the scenario we follow is his innocence and truthfulness with police, then perhaps he did hear about the fight through the grapevine. Supposedly the fight was ZO's concern over LS's condition, by some accounts. Perhaps witnesses to the fight (or those overhearing the fight, or second hand accounts) got in touch with him quickly. The next morning, he searches, can't find her, realizes phone is at Kilroy's (either picks it up or doesn't, unclear) and deduces through friend's account that she is in danger, calls parents and LE report is filed (by him? By two female friends we rarely hear about again? Also currently unclear.) <snipped>.

You know, I also initially thought it was odd that Lauren was reported missing in such a short timeframe. But as more details of the timeline came out, it because less odd to me.

By noonish, JW had gotten a call that Lauren's phone had been left at the bar, and he and her roommates started calling around looking for her. Keep in mind, there were quite a few witnesses to what happened the night before -- there's no doubt at this point, if they hadn't already, they would have heard about the altercation. They also would have heard the descriptions that we've since heard from witnesses in the media and in the lawsuit docs -- that when Lauren was last seen, she was incapacitated and incoherent, and being dragged home by Corey Rossman, an acquaintance of one week. They would have heard that he was acting 'aggressively' and 'inappropriately', and that when people told him to bring her home, he told them to eff off and left with her.

By mid afternoon, calling around, HT talked to JR and he told her that Lauren left at 4 am to walk home. Going by the other witness statements, it sounds very possible that around the same time, others heard conflicting stories from CR and MB -- for ex., the witness at CVS, who was described as a 'friend from smallwood' said that MB told him he watched her walk out the door towards home. And then there are the other conflicting witness statements from neighbours that may or may not have taken place this afternoon. It's always pointed out that it's possible these statements had some details mixed up as they were reported. Maybe. It's also possible they were reported accurately. A few of those witness stories make it clear they found the stories suspicious -- For ex. the witness at CVS and the neighbour who reported Corey "looking for a little blonde girl" both make a point of saying things that raise questions about Corey and Mike.

So yeah, under these circumstances -- If my roommate didn't come home, I was told she was last seen being carried home half conscious the night before by some guy she had just met who was acting aggressively and now claimed to have "amnesia"? And then the stories of the last people with her didn't really make sense? And even still, according to them, she left at 4 am with no phone, purse or shoes and hadn't been seen since?

I would call the police too.

 

[kpeacock]

Isn't refusing to consider stranger abduction because of statistics the same close-minded thinking just complained about?

Just because it isn't statistically high, doesn't mean it didn't happen here.

Stranger abduction should definitely still be considered, if there is any truth to LS leaving 5N.

I don't discuss it often because there's just nothing lead-wise to discuss. My brain literally goes quiet (crickets!) and the only lead I can think of is the white truck cleared by LE. So many possibilities, and zero clues to go on.

Unless someone can think of a possible clue?

 

[kpeacock]

It would appear the main reason there's not much available information about JW is he's cooperated even less than 5N.

If 5N would've stayed as quiet as JW has I don't know what we'd be talking about at this point.






I'm repeating myself but here goes...
A theory:
Jealous boyfriend. Girlfriend is out partying with guys. May not be the first time so things could be building. Either hears she's out with CR 'again' (after Indy 500 meeting (and do we know there wasn't any other meetings between the Indy 500 and this night?)) or suspects as much and goes looking for her. If he suspects CR as a suitor then he seems to have known where to find them. At 4AM not being seen by someone is not surprising. Especially if he's trying to catch her and CR out and about or waiting to see if she's there and what time she leaves the apartments. Which all means he could be trying to stay somewhat unseen anyway. Sitting in his car within eye-shot maybe?

Maybe in his mind he's planning just to watch for her and not make contact but instead thinks he will try and catch her in a lie later since he'll know where she was. Or maybe he had no idea what he was going to do when he saw her and/or CR. Cross that bridge when he comes to it. Maybe his target was CR to begin with? Or maybe without his Dad he wasn't brave enough to face CR by himself.

So.... He's PO'ed at her... he's PO'ed at CR... One or the other or both. He'd been expecting to see her that night and she ignored him. Then at about 4:30AM she comes staggering out of JR's apartment. Totally messed up.

So in his mind he thinks instead of her staying home and being a 'good girl' and talking and texting with him (or meeting up with him), working on their relationship, she went out and got messed up with 'these guys'. Maybe even 'again'. Maybe in his mind he started coming up with some choice names for her as someone who'd do that and began dehumanizing her in his mind.

He's mad. He grabs her and forces her somewhere to 'talk'. Maybe he puts her in his car if he has it. She isn't cooperative and either too drunk, or simply not interested and this makes it worse. Maybe he even drives them far from the area with her in the car to some out of the way place (which would explain why the assumed 'ground zero' of 5N hasn't yielded a smoking gun for LE). And at some point he just totally snaps. They could be outside the car at this point (if the car was used in the first place). He could push her and cause an injury. Punch her. Or even choke her. Or she has a medical issue in the midst of him being rough with her.

-
Sure, it's all speculation. He could've been home in bed. But apparently his alibi isn't strong based on what the PI's (and later, parents) have said.

This theory is simple. Doesn't require a conspiracy. Doesn't require a web of lies among a circle of friends and acquaintances that's expanded to other states (DB and maybe more?). One person (JW) would hold the key. Statistically this is a high probability scenario in a crime like this (jealous significant other or ex). Doesn't have the hurdle of wondering why someone just didn't call an ambulance in a medical emergency. Jealousy as a motive is not a stretch. Doesn't require burner phones, drug dealers, connections, higher ups or lower level people to complete the crime. And even explains nagging issues like no smoking gun apparently found at 5N.

Occam's Razor.

But of course we can't ignore the strangeness of the night and the 5N connection. But if they are telling the truth, at least the gist of it that she walked out the door, then a scenario like the above statistically would be high on the list as a possibility.







Stranger abduction would be a possibility. But it's not statistically high so before we could get to stranger abduction (assuming there's not a pattern of abductions or incidents that could escalate to an abduction) then we'd need to know JW's alibi is solid. Until his alibi is confirmed I cannot imagine 5N and JW not remaining equal PsOI in my view.

Hmmm. The jealous boyfriend spying on LS because he doesn't trust her/they've been having problems/he's heard rumors from friends about CR & the Indy 500 scenario makes sense to me.

Because her inebriated/injured condition was so acute, I'd insert her passing away suddenly into your scenario. Could work both before or after JW becoming angry/physical/violent.

What if the scenario is true, and LS suddenly dies while arguing with JW. He might have reason to believe her death is his fault in that moment and panic (but later realizes her death was an accumulation of factors.) He panics -he was angry at LS, but of course doesn't want her dead. Immediate grief and guilt set in. He does something to body that he can't reverse (dumps it quickly? Hides it somehow?) and by the time he's calmed down and realized that he should have called 911, he's done something that makes him look suspect for assault/abuse/murder, and now he's stuck with his decision to hide the evidence.

Starting to sound like CSI over here. I know hardly anyone wants to play along, but I think it can't hurt!

 

[holly18]

1) Really? It was only white powder?? I distinctly remember it being reported as cocaine. (no links, just 3 years of this... )

2) Think however you like, but it must fit the facts right?

3) There you go thinking logically again...

re:1, I'm almost positive it was just reported as "a white powder", which everyone (including myself) assumed that it was cocaine, but I could be wrong. Does anyone else remember this?

 

[akh]

So yeah, under these circumstances -- If my roommate didn't come home, I was told she was last seen being carried home half conscious the night before by some guy she had just met who was acting aggressively and now claimed to have "amnesia"? And then the stories of the last people with her didn't really make sense? And even still, according to them, she left at 4 am with no phone, purse or shoes and hadn't been seen since?

I would call the police too.

So at about noon, he knows all of this? He knows CR is claiming 'amnesia'? He knows all of the stories of the people she was last with and has reason not to believe them? He knows that when they said she went home, she didn't in fact actually go home? And more importantly, you know all of this so we can move on?

And then he also knows that she didn't come home, sleep, and has already left for the day and he just missed her? Nobody has ever explained that part to me. There's plenty of a gap for her to have arrived home, slept and left. In search of her phone... breakfast... lunch... clothes... groceries... a walk in the park... a meeting with someone... etc...

That is just odd...

 

[holly18]

people aren't apples and oranges. I don't believe LE has made him a POI just because he was her boyfriend. If someone is a POI, that means
we sleuth them. Akh is not defending the 5N POIs, just adding an apple to the rest of the apples.

People aren't apples and oranges, but the scenarios are. With 5N we have facts, we have conflicting statements and statements that are incredibly unlikely to be true, if not impossible. With JW we have suspicions, but nothing concrete. That gives us nothing to work with, instead of having a rough time frame of his actions and knowing how he acted towards Lauren that night (which we know with CR), its all guesswork.

Like I've said many many times before, I'm not saying I think JW is innocent. I'm not saying he shouldn't be sleuthed. If there is any additional information about his actions that night, I hope we find it. But for now, with the information about him that we have, its like going in circles. He could have done something, but we don't have any facts to build a theory around. I'm not saying he should not be discussed, or that he is innocent. Just that we don't have any facts to work with when it comes to him.

 

[holly18]

I've been thinking about this for a bit, it might be absurd but I figured I'd share it anyway. I don't know much about long qt outside of this case, so I could be completely wrong.

Lauren had medication that she had to take daily. Was it medication that she had to take around the same time every day? We've heard that JW told HT about Lauren's heart condition that day, did he say that because it was one of the reasons he was worried, or because he had reason to believe she hadn't taken her medicine and thus hadn't been home? If she had a pill case thing that was broken into days (I hope someone knows what I'm talking about, no idea what the term is. Its one of those things that has a little compartment for each day?) and he saw it in her room, he might have checked to see if she'd been home to take her pill and got worried when she hadn't.

This doesn't really change anything at all, but it could explain why he was so certain she hadn't been home?

 

[AbbeyR]

So at about noon, he knows all of this? He knows CR is claiming 'amnesia'? He knows all of the stories of the people she was last with and has reason not to believe them? He knows that when they said she went home, she didn't in fact actually go home? And more importantly, you know all of this so we can move on?

By mid-late afternoon - and yes, we all have this information because it has been reported in MSM. Putting the pieces together from HT and the other reports, I noted what is certain that they knew (like the info from JR) and what was possible (the conflicting stories from witnesses).

 

[akh]

Then since Kilroy's had informed him she didn't have her phone, he "assumes" she won't answer door and goes instead first to get HT's key to let himself in? Why?

Very excellent point. I hadn't considered that, but it fits in with my point of how did he know by that time he hadn't just missed her and she had in fact really been home, slept, and left?

So for some reason he knows she won't answer the door and he needs the key to get in? That is a leap on his part. He doesn't even go there first and try knocking on the door?

He's already thinking something bad has happened before he at least tries knocking on the door?

 

[akh]

I've been thinking about this for a bit, it might be absurd but I figured I'd share it anyway. I don't know much about long qt outside of this case, so I could be completely wrong.

Lauren had medication that she had to take daily. Was it medication that she had to take around the same time every day? We've heard that JW told HT about Lauren's heart condition that day, did he say that because it was one of the reasons he was worried, or because he had reason to believe she hadn't taken her medicine and thus hadn't been home? If she had a pill case thing that was broken into days (I hope someone knows what I'm talking about, no idea what the term is. Its one of those things that has a little compartment for each day?) and he saw it in her room, he might have checked to see if she'd been home to take her pill and got worried when she hadn't.

This doesn't really change anything at all, but it could explain why he was so certain she hadn't been home?

That's been discussed but it's just more speculation trying to give him the benefit of the doubt so that we can go back to discussing why 5N are guilty. He could've bribed a security guard at SW to show him security cam footage too. Or maybe he hacked into the servers and was able to view the footage.

But now there's the excellent point that's been added to the equation of why didn't he try knocking on the door first before deciding he had to have the key? How did he know she wouldn't open the door?

So he already knows she's not going to open the door before he even tries knocking.

Is there anything to indicate he tried knocking on the door first before calling for the key?

As for pill count... It tells us there is a potential explanation of how he might assume she hadn't been home but only if we're willing to reach for it (we don't know that there was a daily dispenser, that she would've always taken the pill in the morning vs evening, or how often she missed a dosage, or if JW would've even known to look). That shouldn't satisfy anyone's curiosity enough to move on.

 

[sammi89]

That's been discussed but it's just more speculation trying to give him the benefit of the doubt so that we can go back to discussing why 5N are guilty.

So when I read any possible explanation of 5N's odd behaviors, I should just assume it's you giving them the benefit of the doubt so that we can go back to discussing why JW is guilty?


I just don't think that's a fair assumption either.

If you want to speculate on why JW might be guilty, fine, but posters are going to think of ways that his behavior might be explainable, just like they did with 5N (entitlement issues, selfishness, etc. etc.).

I don't really get what you are looking for. I can only speak for myself, but I am pretty sure others have also stated this: if any of the speculation suggesting JW lied about his alibi, had knowledge LS was out and where, was possessive or abusive, etc. was shown to be true, he would be my number one suspect. Right now that's just speculation.

It could be true he lied, confronted LS, and LS died with him, but his actions might easily be innocent, and if you want to post about how he might be guilty, I don't see why it is surprising that some posters are suggesting innocent explanations. It's been done with 5N too.

All said respectfully - I'm just not sure why you are upset. It happens with 5N too.

ETA: IMO, I think a lot of the better discussions start once people start pointing out flaws with theories or possible innocent explanations. It can really be a good thing.

 

[AbbeyR]

But now there's the excellent point that's been added to the equation of why didn't he try knocking on the door first before deciding he had to have the key? How did he know she wouldn't open the door?

So he already knows she's not going to open the door before he even tries knocking.

Is there anything to indicate he tried knocking on the door first before calling for the key?

Is there anything to indicate that he didn't knock on the door first? Or that someone else didn't?

 

[Ixchel13]

So when I read any possible explanation of 5N's odd behaviors, I should just assume it's you giving them the benefit of the doubt so that we can go back to discussing why JW is guilty?


I just don't think that's a fair assumption either.

If you want to speculate on why JW might be guilty, fine, but posters are going to think of ways that his behavior might be explainable, just like they did with 5N (entitlement issues, selfishness, etc. etc.).

I don't really get what you are looking for. I can only speak for myself, but I am pretty sure others have also stated this: if any of the speculation suggesting JW lied about his alibi, had knowledge LS was out and where, was possessive or abusive, etc. was shown to be true, he would be my number one suspect. Right now that's just speculation.

It could be true he lied, confronted LS, and LS died with him, but his actions might easily be innocent, and if you want to post about how he might be guilty, I don't see why it is surprising that some posters are suggesting innocent explanations. It's been done with 5N too.

All said respectfully - I'm just not sure why you are upset. It happens with 5N too.

No one is defending the 5N POIs! We're just adding on. You know that everything besides the general knowledge that Lauren was inebriated is also speculation don't you?

At first, it seemed unlikely that JR would help JW and vice versa, because of misinformation at the beginning (TG?FB? propaganda from friends?) that they didn't really like each other. But, we find a block in Birmingham, MI, not Westchester or NYC, JW's stomping grounds, but Birmingham MI, JR's stomping grounds, made up of their businesses beginning in August of 2011. Regardless of whether they rented it or sold it, there seems to be a close enough relationship there.

The family connections are important. The lawyering up makes sense. Are we to presume that none of her roommates got advice from their lawyers? Let's see, I'm a very wealthy parent whose daughter's friends are involved in a
death/murder/disappearance, and my daughter may know or suspect who did it. What do I do?

First of all, I am not attacking BW. She seems like a very nice person. And for all we know, she might have already ratted out who she thinks might have disappeared Lauren. If she did, I am sure her family had all the necessary arrangements in place, most of all, anonymity and immunity from all knowledge of others involvement.

Lastly, just want to say that yes, if she left, it would be very easy and simple for anyone to scoop her right up. I've said that all along, and by the way, Very Veritas, stranger abduction is not extremely rare in the context of abductions themselves. Abduction might be classified as a rare way of disappearing, but once abduction is known to be the case, then stranger abduction would not be rare, one only has to read the threads here to know that. You may be more likely to be abducted by a person you know, but
so many of the victims here on WS were abducted by strangers.

Easy to be abducted if she left, but the silence from LE concerning this is
what made me join the 5N and other 5 POI theories. If it were just that simple, just the 3 5N, then why the other 7? To me, it means the 5N guys had help, or were helping someone else. They are all lying, and why should that disclude the females? is disclude a word?

 

[Ixchel13]

By mid-late afternoon - and yes, we all have this information because it has been reported in MSM. Putting the pieces together from HT and the other reports, I noted what is certain that they knew (like the info from JR) and what was possible (the conflicting stories from witnesses).

If JR is a liar, why would we consider as evidence or probability hearsay from him via HT and spun by MSM?

 

[AbbeyR]

@ Ixchel.

It's up to the person stating the information to provide an accurate source - that's how this website works. You regularly post information about people that is wrong - your recent posts included. I'm not going to continue to engage with you on this - it's just a distraction and annoying to everyone, I'm sure. Maybe Bessie can weigh in on the rules of posting (incorrect) information about people who are not even POI.

 

[kpeacock]

Well, I'm just going to bulldoze along and continue profiling JW.

Just re-read this article, with this quote by HT:

Wolff and Spierer, 20, were supposed to get together that morning, but she left her cellphone at Kilroy's Sports Bar shortly before 2:30 a.m.

"They were planning on hanging out when she got back (from the bar)," said Spierer's apartment mate, Hadar Tamir.

She said the couple "constantly talk all day," but she was uncertain when they had last spoken or exchanged text messages.

"They did have contact before then (2:30 a.m.)... but, because she left her phone at the bar, neither of them could text each other to meet up once she left," Tamir said.

Wolff just went to sleep when he couldn't reach Spierer, she said.

http://www.lohud.com/article/201107...ghter-s-friends?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|News

They (LS & JW) were planning on hanging out when LS got home from the bar, according to HT.

JW can't reach LS, and he just... goes to bed? Or, he says he went to bed, but he actually went out looking for her, concerned because she wasn't answering texts? He knows she's out partying, and he suddenly stops getting responses from her.

If he did go to sleep, it makes sense that he would wake up worried and go hunting.

We do have accounts that LS was searching for her phone, trying to use an I-pod as a phone, etc. Maybe she was trying to get back in touch with JW. Maybe she did leave 5N, still wanting to party, and went in the direction of JW.

 

[akh]

That isn't true.

Whenever the conflicting stories from 5N angle is brought up, you yourself have always pointed out we aren't privvy to what they have actually said and it's possible that they aren't conflicting.

It happens with 5N too. It shouldn't be a big deal that people speculate innocent explanations for JW too.

No, the difference being I'm just pointing out we're not looking at the smoking gun so it's not 'case closed'. I've always said I consider 5N and JW to be PsOI 1A and 1B.
I'm not even speculating that the stories aren't conflicting... I'm saying we don't know so we need to be careful of the weight we put on that. We don't know what they told LE initially, or ever really, and that is a fact. The speculation is actually people assuming 2nd and 3rd hand reports, offhand attorney comments, etc is actually accurate as to what is in the files of LE or that it's accurately and entirely representative of the actual words of 5N (which we've rarely heard at all).

I'm not saying we need to forget 5N and look elsewhere. I'm saying be careful of confirmation bias and assuming we have enough accurate information to proclaim them obviously guilty.

The benefit of the doubt speculation that happens with JW is almost always with an implied "I'm comfortable JW cannot be involved. So let's move on back to the real culprits at 5N"

 

[doubtingthomas]

We've been over this Michigan thing so so many times its getting absurd. As I, and others, have explained to you multiple times: JW's family owns a large business. That business represents many many other businesses. One of the businesses that JW's family's business represents may have had an office near JR. You've provided zero evidence that JW lived or worked in Michigan at any point, zero evidence that JR was living in Michigan at that point, and zero evidence that JW even knew about the office.

2012 CES Unveiled NY: myCharge - Video Dailymotion

This video is JW representing a company called mycharge. This video is from Nov 2012. The company was created in 8/2011. It is now owned by RFA Brands, LLC created in 2012. The company is located at 123 W Brown St, Birmingham, MI. When I found this JW’s LinkedIn account showed he worked for mycharge. So when I googled mycharge I found this video. His LinkedIn account no longer shows he worked for them.

JR’s company is called Imovation Solutions. It is located at 255 E Brown St, Birmingham, MI.

Is there more than one location for mycharge? Is there any proof that JW worked at this location? No. But this is their corporate office. So saying JW worked by JR is pure speculation. But there is a lot of speculation on this site about a lot of things.

 

[bx2]

Very excellent point. I hadn't considered that, but it fits in with my point of how did he know by that time he hadn't just missed her and she had in fact really been home, slept, and left?

So for some reason he knows she won't answer the door and he needs the key to get in? That is a leap on his part. He doesn't even go there first and try knocking on the door?

He's already thinking something bad has happened before he at least tries knocking on the door?

We've heard this framework of next day events, but I agree we don't necessarily know the order of how things proceeded or how they come to happen. For instance, we know he contacted HT and there was this arrangement of key pickup, but as discussed it's unknown on if he had attempted to go to SW first already or not. Seems just as easy that he got ahold of HT to find out if she had seen LS that morning, and when she said she hadn't, they arranged the key hand-off so he could go check right then. Not that it couldn't be done, but remember there is key card access required at SW and the elevator just to get to her apt door.

As for the jilted bf scenario where he goes looking for her, wouldn't this trigger a cell phone ping discrepancy in his story? Leaving his cell phone behind if he was desperately seeking her out would require some serious pre-meditation.

 

[holly18]

2012 CES Unveiled NY: myCharge - Video Dailymotion

This video is JW representing a company called mycharge. This video is from Nov 2012. The company was created in 8/2011. It is now owned by RFA Brands, LLC created in 2012. The company is located at 123 W Brown St, Birmingham, MI. When I found this JW’s LinkedIn account showed he worked for mycharge. So when I googled mycharge I found this video. His LinkedIn account no longer shows he worked for them.

JR’s company is called Imovation Solutions. It is located at 255 E Brown St, Birmingham, MI.

Is there more than one location for mycharge? Is there any proof that JW worked at this location? No. But this is their corporate office. So saying JW worked by JR is pure speculation. But there is a lot of speculation on this site about a lot of things.

Thank you for the specific information, I really appreciate it