IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #32

[VeryVeritas]

there's really nothing we can say or do to solidify JW's or any of their alibis.
In fact, is that what we even try to do here?

JW's circumstance is quite different from the 5N guys.

He lost contact with LS by phone and there is no proof he had any contact with her after that WHATSOEVER.

In contrast the 5N Guys most definitely DID HAVE CONTACT with her and admittedly so even after we know she was incapacitated and banged up.
Further, there is nothing to show she left their presence ALIVE.

At this point it would seem pointing the finger at JW (without a single piece of evidence to support his involvement) is all about trying to introduce reasonable doubt about the 5N guys.

<modsnip> Does that generate reasonable doubt that the 5N guys are at fault? Not for me...

 

[VeryVeritas]

2012 CES Unveiled NY: myCharge - Video Dailymotion

This video is JW representing a company called mycharge. This video is from Nov 2012. The company was created in 8/2011. It is now owned by RFA Brands, LLC created in 2012. The company is located at 123 W Brown St, Birmingham, MI. When I found this JW’s LinkedIn account showed he worked for mycharge. So when I googled mycharge I found this video. His LinkedIn account no longer shows he worked for them.

JR’s company is called Imovation Solutions. It is located at 255 E Brown St, Birmingham, MI.

Is there more than one location for mycharge? Is there any proof that JW worked at this location? No. But this is their corporate office. So saying JW worked by JR is pure speculation. But there is a lot of speculation on this site about a lot of things.

It's weirdly coincidental to say the least.

But lets say you proved that JW and JR are pals.
How does that change anything?

 

[sammi89]

This account by HT that JW fell asleep because he could not reach LS, could be mostly verified by JW and LS's cell phone activity. It wouldn't prove that JW was asleep, but you could see if his tone were panicky/controlling vs. someone getting tired and bored.

I've also wondered if he was texting others during that time period stating he was going to bed. Obviously he has his roomies who seem to support that he went to bed, but a text would provide a timestamp and perhaps convey something about his tone, like you mentioned.

Again, it wouldn't necessarily prove anything factual, but it would hint that maybe he did go to bed or he was getting tired or suggest some serious premeditation if he was actively trying to create an alibi.

 

[VeryVeritas]

[/B] if you can speculate this broadly, why disagree with anyone's else speculations?

It's not BROAD speculation that she was unconscious or to take JR's extensive statements as proof that he was thinking logically.

There is ample reason to think that LS was unconscious, because you see... that was her last proven state which is recorded on VIDEO! Any other state of her consciousness is only that communicated by MB and JR who have established inconsistent and revised stories.

What we are talking about here is how likely certain things are. There is a lot that points to LS being incapacitated including parts of JR's observations (though he doesn't go so far as to say that she was unconscious).

I'll go a little further with it, however... my point was that she was not able to walk and so conscious or not no one wanted that job. It would have been a lot simpler than all of the drama if she actually were able to tell a phone from an ipod and could actually walk.

The facts show her last proven state was unconscious.
The facts also show that MB and JR were spending quite a bit of time and effort on her - about 1 full hour. The recollection of that time period is pretty much logical (despite their inconsistencies). So, a 5 minute walk to SW would be not possible, why? Well the most likely reason is that she could not walk (alive or dead).
There is nothing to prove that her state changed to anything better before becoming worse. All factors point to it becoming worse.

 

[akh]

JW's circumstance is quite different from the 5N guys.

He lost contact with LS by phone and there is no proof he had any contact with her after that WHATSOEVER.

Or said another way, we don't know whether there was any contact, proven or otherwise. And if there was, how would we know? Would LE request that any witnesses broadcast that information to the press? Would LE fax a copy of the phone records to the press? Point being, we don't have that info and it would be naive to think, even if it exists, that we would get that info. So lack of info in no way means it doesn't exist and so we cannot freely assume that point.

In contrast the 5N Guys most definitely DID HAVE CONTACT with her and admittedly so even after we know she was incapacitated and banged up.
Further, there is nothing to show she left their presence ALIVE.

And said another way, there is nothing to show she left their presence DEAD.
And it might not be a stretch to say if there was something of that nature then there might likely already be someone on trial.

I'm sure things like that are why this is not as cut and dried as some would otherwise think.

At this point it would seem pointing the finger at JW (without a single piece of evidence to support his involvement) is all about trying to introduce reasonable doubt about the 5N guys.

Or said another way, trying to ascertain whether reasonable doubt still exists with the 5N guys. If it does then those avenues need thoroughly explored.

<modsnip> Does that generate reasonable doubt that the 5N guys are at fault? Not for me...

Thinking like this is how guilty parties are able to escape justice, and innocent parties find themselves in the crosshairs of law enforcement. Focus in on a theory and then out of hand discredit anything that doesn't fit the theory.

Worse, we are so in the dark on many details that it's impossible to lock into a theory simply because we don't know what we don't know. Just because we haven't heard a rumor, read a report, or had a dream about something doesn't mean there's not more that is locked away from the public and simply out of our reach.

In fact, I'd hope there is more than what we know or this case will never be solved.

 

[akh]

The facts show her last proven state was unconscious.

Wait, what??

 

[VeryVeritas]

I've been thinking about this for a bit, it might be absurd but I figured I'd share it anyway. I don't know much about long qt outside of this case, so I could be completely wrong.

Lauren had medication that she had to take daily. Was it medication that she had to take around the same time every day? We've heard that JW told HT about Lauren's heart condition that day, did he say that because it was one of the reasons he was worried, or because he had reason to believe she hadn't taken her medicine and thus hadn't been home? If she had a pill case thing that was broken into days (I hope someone knows what I'm talking about, no idea what the term is. Its one of those things that has a little compartment for each day?) and he saw it in her room, he might have checked to see if she'd been home to take her pill and got worried when she hadn't.

This doesn't really change anything at all, but it could explain why he was so certain she hadn't been home?

Doesn't seem like he wouldn't have to go that far to realize she hadn't been home. The simple fact that she stopped responding the night before and was still not responding and was not in her apt would be enough to arrive at that conclusion. Also, HT said she did not see her, correct?

My point is that people who are bf / gf and maintain fairly regular contact know that something is up when that pattern is suddenly disrupted.
I think LS's family noticed the same break in communication fairly quickly.

 

[VeryVeritas]

Stranger abduction should definitely still be considered, if there is any truth to LS leaving 5N.

I don't discuss it often because there's just nothing lead-wise to discuss. My brain literally goes quiet (crickets!) and the only lead I can think of is the white truck cleared by LE. So many possibilities, and zero clues to go on.

Unless someone can think of a possible clue?

"if there is any truth to LS leaving 5N."


Exactly this whole thing comes down to - do you believe JR or not?
If you do not believe JR, then you know JR is inolved.
If you do believe JR, then it leaves stranger abduction or JW.


There have been quite a pile of discussions that show JR has lied and/or was omitting details and a bunch of things that don't add up with the CR/MB/JR chain of events and stories, for example
- CR claims amnesia, but he was with her during that last unconscious fall face down.
- MB called and brought LS over to JR's at around 3:30am
(instead of bringing her home). Initially this was attributed to her not wanting to stay (In asking her to stay that's a hint, but avoidance that her condition was bad such that she could not or should not walk home), but also her wanting to "party" more. MB supposedly didn't want to "party" and was studying. Later, this all changed a few times, most recently when MB said he brought LS over to JR's and now it becomes known that MB stayed at JR's for a while after doing so. MB also painted a picture that he and LS put CR to bed, pretty much turning her likely condition upside down.
- JR spends quite a bit of time, as much as a full hour, observing LS's condition rather than walk her home 2 blocks which would have taken far less time. Finally JR most paradoxically is making calls at 4:15AM because LS can't but then also lets her walk home because she also suddenly passes his sobriety test. (discrepancy??)
- According to JR LS walks down 11th toward College.
But it's really odd she would go that way.
- If LS were conscious and had intentions of going to JW, then why not call him? Instead the very passed out(from ingesting the same klonopin as LS) DR is called - no answer, go figure.

ok take all of that and compare it to stranger abduction facts in this case:

- none


So... "if there is any truth to LS leaving 5N."... (no proof at all to back up this claim, but several reasons to doubt it)

 

[Mahouston69]

Something I was curious about. The summer session was ending and students going home. I think JW had graduated but the 5N guys were coming back. So, my question is, would they keep their furniture in the apts till they returned or send them home? If they sent them home would they rent a truck and move by themselves or hire a moving company? Since JW's father came to Btown and they left shortly there after would they have moved themselves or hired it done?

My guess is hired but in regards to JW, he was supposed to attend summer classes and LS had stayed behind to travel home with him after his classes were finished. Another red flag, in that not only did he not attend those classes but he left on Tuesday, before the organized searches started and before LS was located, dead or alive. In addition, spent over a year in therapy.. according to his parents.

 

[Mahouston69]

Some student apartments in Bloomington come furnished. Some don't. Most have 12 month leases. Sometimes students sublet them for the summer, sometimes they stay in them themselves and work or take summer classes, sometimes they leave them unoccupied for the summer. Few students would move their furniture home for the summer.

Whether one hires a mover or does it oneself usually depends on factors such as the amount of stuff to move, the price of a mover, the availability of strong people to carry stuff, the availability of a rental truck or trailer, etc.

So, on this topic, why would JW remove carpet (if he did) and move home, only to return in the fall to finish those classes he had left? Did he still live in the same place he previously packed up, cleaned up, to move out of or did he move back into the frat house? What about JR? Do we know?

 

[UncleJohn]

Sorry John, that doesn't wash.
The reason is that JR gave a very extensive and logical account of how he tested LS's ability to walk, etc... He spent time observing her intoxication, injuries, possessions, etc... quite a bit of details. He made it very clear that HE was thinking logically. MB who called JR and brought LS over was also thinking logically.

Then in the recent civil case, JR explained that MB was present at his place also. Quite a bit of time passed. MB was capable of bringing LS from his place to JR's. Somehow they were both capable of all of this activity but were not capable of walking 2 blocks? nah....

She was most likely unconscious and THAT would have meant carrying her 2 blocks. But then, at some point she wasn't even breathing. Then someone had to carry her somewhere.

VeryV -

Yes, we have all read about the field sobriety test and the detailed account of LS's condition at JR's. If I recall correctly, that account first came from HT and later was mentioned in the PI's video without attribution. All that proves is that JR (or HT) offered a plausible (logical?) story at some point after the fact. We have no evidence that it actually happened. We also have no evidence of what possessions LS retained at that point. And we certainly have no evidence that any of the 5N boys were acting in a rational or logical manner.

Very little of what we 'know' about what happened that night is based on solid, verifiable evidence. Anything and everything reported by the POIs that happened after LS and CR passed the last security camera should (IMHO) be considered unreliable.

The point I was trying to make in my earlier post is that all of the witness accounts of what happened after the last camera should should have an alcohol and drug filter applied. And that trying to deduce what happened based on the POIs acting logically may not be the best approach.

Based on what we know and on what we have been told but cannot confirm, I tend to agree with you that 5N deserves the closest scrutiny. But, since the verifiable evidence available to us is so sparse, I don't think we can rule out any number of other possibilities.

As for LS being 'down for the count' at the last surveillance camera - I can say from personal experience that severely intoxicated people can and do 'come to' after passing out or blacking out. I wouldn't rule out the possibility that she really did walk away from 5N. Maybe not likely, but certainly possible.

- John

 

[sammi89]

My guess is hired but in regards to JW, he was supposed to attend summer classes and LS had stayed behind to travel home with him after his classes were finished. Another red flag, in that not only did he not attend those classes but he left on Tuesday, before the organized searches started and before LS was located, dead or alive. In addition, spent over a year in therapy.. according to his parents.

I think leaving so early could be a little sketchy, depending on a few factors, but I don't think his decision to not attend summer classes or the therapy really says much at all.

If LS disappeared because of 5N or a stranger abduction, he was probably devastated. Taking classes is just going to be a waste of his time and money because he probably isn't going to be focused. Therapy actually seems like a very healthy decision when dealing with sudden loss and grief.

If he is behind her disappearance, his decision to not attend summer school also makes sense - he wouldn't want to be there for some pretty obvious reasons. Therapy would make sense for guilt.

IMO, that stuff isn't too telling one way or another.

Back to the leaving early, which could be suspicious: is there a link on when JW actually left town and when he and his father confronted CR/JR? I am genuinely curious and can't seem to find one.

I do wonder if he was specifically asked not to participate in the searches. That doesn't necessarily mean that it was cool of him to go home when there was the possibility that LS might be found alive, but on the flip side, his family and friends were back in NY and if innocent, he would want (and probably need) their support too. I do think it's interesting to note that when this article was published, four months after LS went missing (and certainly long after official searches began), her parents spoke positively of JW, which IMO, indicates that it was understandable to them that he did not stick around (at least at that time):
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...sappears-her-parents-exclusive-interview.html

And what of Jesse Wolff, Spierer’s boyfriend of two years. whose friends allegedly attacked Corey Rossman? By Charlene and Robert’s account, Wolff had a healthy relationship with their daughter, and both parents are supporting him.

“He spent many nights at our house and Lauren spent many nights at his house. They were very close,” Robert Spierer said.

“He is still close to us, and I feel bad that he’s suffering,” Charlene Spierer added.

I think the biggest question I have in regards to JW is what changed in the Spierers' mind. Is there some fact that made them really reconsider him or is it simply that time continues on with no concrete answers?

 

[bessie]

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IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #33 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community