IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #33

[Mahouston69]

Some student apartments in Bloomington come furnished. Some don't. Most have 12 month leases. Sometimes students sublet them for the summer, sometimes they stay in them themselves and work or take summer classes, sometimes they leave them unoccupied for the summer. Few students would move their furniture home for the summer.

Whether one hires a mover or does it oneself usually depends on factors such as the amount of stuff to move, the price of a mover, the availability of strong people to carry stuff, the availability of a rental truck or trailer, etc.

So, on this topic, why would JW remove carpet (if he did) and move home, only to return in the fall to finish those classes he had left? Did he still live in the same place he previously packed up, cleaned up, to move out of or did he move back into the frat house? What about JR? Do we know?

 

[bessie]

can he also be sleuthed?

I'm using your question as a jumping off point, but the reply is for everyone!

Unless he's been officially cleared by LE, JW's actions on the night LS disappeared, and in the following days, can be considered and discussed. Same for the 5N group. Prying into their present lives is off limits.

LS's roommates also are off limits unless you have MSM to show they were with LS after Kilroy's. If they made public statements, those can be discussed, but you cannot speculate about their involvement in LS's disappearance.

A few very important points:

1. SLEUTHING FAMILY MEMBERS IS OFF LIMITS. PERIOD.

2. "FACTS" MUST BE ACCOMPANIED BY LINKS TO ACCEPTABLE SOURCES (MSM). FOR THE LAST TIME, IF YOU CAN'T LINK IT, YOU CAN'T POST IT.

3. WHEN YOU QUOTE A PROBLEM POST, OR YOU ENGAGE IN AN ARGUMENT OVER A PROBLEM POST, YOU BECOME PART OF THE PROBLEM. ALERT, OR PM A MOD, AND THEN SCROLL ON.


FINAL WARNING! TIME OUTS WILL FOLLOW WITHOUT FURTHER NOTICE.

I'd like to see LS's threads remain open, but it has come very close to the point where we will lock them up until there is a break in the case.

 

[bessie]

It would be a good idea to stay focused on the charges in the civil case.

Rosenbaum said he was trying to contact mutual friends to help her get home, but he eventually let Spierer walk home by herself at around 4:30 am. The court documents say he was the last person to see her alive.

The lawsuit alleges that her "abandonment in an intoxicated and disoriented state in the early morning hours of June 3, 2011 in an area known for criminal acts contributed to her disappearance, and presumed injuries and death."

http://www.wthr.com/story/25380548/2014/04/29/date-set-for-hearing-in-lauren-spierer-civil-lawsuit

The Spierers' attorney, Jeanine Kerridge, argued Rossman and Rosenbaum had a legal duty for Lauren Spierer's welfare because they had provided drinks to the point where she was visibly intoxicated.

"They were contributing to her peril," Kerridge said.

Rossman had an additional duty to the woman because after leaving the bar, he carried her past her own apartment while going to the apartment he and Beth shared.

http://www.theindychannel.com/news/...er-lawsuit-against-men-last-seen-with-student

 

[Ixchel13]

I'm wondering that if the Spierers do get the phone records, if they will be having their attorneys grill the witnesses about them, not just the two defendants? Or, will they be asking the witnesses, like JW, why they called such and such a person when he was supposed to be asleep? Or if either defendant received phone calls after 3:30 a.m. from any of the witnesses and if any of the witnesses then called other unknown (to us, not LE)
persons? (speculation not statement of fact) Maybe Akh can answer that for me?
We call them witnesses, but are they also pseudo suspects? Not accusing, just musing. We know there's a POI list, but I'm not certain that all of the POIs are on that witness list. It would be smart and cagey to leave a couple of the POIs off the list for wiggle room and room for the witnesses to back stab defendants/other witnesses. Not really any honor among thieves/criminals. And then there's MB let off the hook as a defendant only to be called up as a witness. I don't think we really can be certain of the POI list, no matter how many times the same names popped up. As Qualters said, they haven't shared anything with anyone.
So, that leaves a very large spectrum of possibilities. Because, LE has released many statements and
updates. And since Qualters implies they haven't shared crucial info, who they think is responsible has not been made clear, no matter how clear it has been made by MSM. The question might be, who knows the most, MSM, or LE?
No matter whom else might be involved, JR is still covering up and is involved, IMO, so this is in no way an attempt to make 5N POIs seem guilt free.

 

[holly18]

I'm wondering that if the Spierers do get the phone records, if they will be having their attorneys grill the witnesses about them, not just the two defendants? Or, will they be asking the witnesses, like JW, why they called such and such a person when he was supposed to be asleep? Or if either defendant received phone calls after 3:30 a.m. from any of the witnesses and if any of the witnesses then called other unknown (to us, not LE)
persons? (speculation not statement of fact) Maybe Akh can answer that for me?
We call them witnesses, but are they also pseudo suspects? Not accusing, just musing. We know there's a POI list, but I'm not certain that all of the POIs are on that witness list. It would be smart and cagey to leave a couple of the POIs off the list for wiggle room and room for the witnesses to back stab defendants/other witnesses. Not really any honor among thieves/criminals. And then there's MB let off the hook as a defendant only to be called up as a witness. I don't think we really can be certain of the POI list, no matter how many times the same names popped up. As Qualters said, they haven't shared anything with anyone.
So, that leaves a very large spectrum of possibilities. Because, LE has released many statements and
updates. And since Qualters implies they haven't shared crucial info, who they think is responsible has not been made clear, no matter how clear it has been made by MSM. The question might be, who knows the most, MSM, or LE?
No matter whom else might be involved, JR is still covering up and is involved, IMO, so this is in no way an attempt to make 5N POIs seem guilt free.

This is a good point. IMO, it would make sense if LE/the Spierers think JR (and possibly MB/CR) were involved but not the main perpetrator, the 5N boys getting all the heat while LE doesn't mention that they think XYZ might have had a bigger role than the boys could lead at least one of the 5N boys to crack.

Personally, I'm still really curious about DB, and he might fit this strategy. IE if DB (or someone else known to JR) was the one who disappeared Lauren, even if JR is covering for him as of now, eventually he might snap in a sort of "why is everyone going after me, he's the one who did _____" kind of way. Maybe wishful thinking, but I'm really hoping that the civil suit will crack someone, defendant or witness

 

[akh]

persons? (speculation not statement of fact) Maybe Akh can answer that for me?

I'm having a hard time figuring out how they are going to justify an obvious fishing expedition as not a fishing expedition to the judge.

The only thing I can think of, and it's still not filling in all the pieces, would be since the lawsuit says the 5N allowed LS to leave into the night in a condition that led to her demise that maybe they have a theory about her demise. Something involving some of these other players they think can at least cross the credibility threshold enough to get a judge to go along with it. If they do have a theory like that it would go against everything we've been led to believe. But the lawsuit is based on 5N's own words, not anything with them directly involved in making her disappear. So that would give them some wiggle room to create a false theory of what happened next.

So if the defense has signaled that part of their strategy will be to say "Besides everything else we're presenting, the simple fact is, as hard as it is to imagine, there isn't even any evidence that she's not somewhere OK with a new life for reasons we don't know and could only speculate upon".

MAYBE that opens a door for the plaintiff to try and counter with a theory of the crime after leaving 5N and a search of records to back it up. But it's hard to believe they have a real alternate theory they believe in versus the one they've seemed to be really be focused on from the start (total guilt of 5N).

So that is the rough idea of how they might be able to spin selling a fishing expedition into not being seen as a fishing expedition.

Once they have the records they are after, if they find something totally different than the theory they laid out to the judge, it would now be admissible most likely.

 

[Ixchel13]

I'm having a hard time figuring out how they are going to justify an obvious fishing expedition as not a fishing expedition to the judge.

The only thing I can think of, and it's still not filling in all the pieces, would be since the lawsuit says the 5N allowed LS to leave into the night in a condition that led to her demise that maybe they have a theory about her demise. Something involving some of these other players they think can at least cross the credibility threshold enough to get a judge to go along with it. If they do have a theory like that it would go against everything we've been led to believe. But the lawsuit is based on 5N's own words, not anything with them directly involved in making her disappear. So that would give them some wiggle room to create a false theory of what happened next.

So if the defense has signaled that part of their strategy will be to say "Besides everything else we're presenting, the simple fact is, as hard as it is to imagine, there isn't even any evidence that she's not somewhere OK with a new life for reasons we don't know and could only speculate upon".

MAYBE that opens a door for the plaintiff to try and counter with a theory of the crime after leaving 5N and a search of records to back it up. But it's hard to believe they have a real alternate theory they believe in versus the one they've seemed to be really be focused on from the start (total guilt of 5N).

So that is the rough idea of how they might be able to spin selling a fishing expedition into not being seen as a fishing expedition.

Once they have the records they are after, if they find something totally different than the theory they laid out to the judge, it would now be admissible most likely.

crossing all fingers and toes in hopes they get the phone and school records.
So, you are saying, if someone they received the records for would be seen to be calling the POIs, or if the POIs called someone during the bad window, say 3 a.m. to late afternoon on the 4th, then that will open the door to examine what they've been up to, even up to this moment?

Also wondering if the phone record search would extend to the Kilroy's employees on the list? And,
may I add, not accusing them whatsoever! just wondering.....

 

[akh]

crossing all fingers and toes in hopes they get the phone and school records.
So, you are saying, if someone they received the records for would be seen to be calling the POIs, or if the POIs called someone during the bad window, say 3 a.m. to late afternoon on the 4th, then that will open the door to examine what they've been up to, even up to this moment?

Also wondering if the phone record search would extend to the Kilroy's employees on the list? And,
may I add, not accusing them whatsoever! just wondering.....

Once they have the records, anything they find of seeming significance to the case could be explored. And it wouldn't have to be the civil case. If they find a chain of calls that opens a new door they can take it to LE where their investigative powers and leverage could be put to use.

IOW, if you're looking for evidence of a particular crime, and you are where the law has figuratively allowed you to go, and you find evidence that you were entirely wrong but find a solid lead or connection that sends you in the right direction, then they won't be prohibited from following that lead.

I'd think any game-changer info would go straight to LE.

But, I'd have to think LE has much of this same information already and never made any connections with it themselves. Or maybe they made connections but it still never got them to a smoking gun they'd need to prosecute. Maybe fresh eyes would find something they didn't....

Does that answer your question?

 

[imkeylime]

Slightly OT, but I saw that IU-Bloomington made this list (55 colleges investigated over sexual violence complaints):

http://www.cnn.com/2014/05/01/us/colleges-sex-complaint-investigations/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

http://www.cnn.com/2014/images/05/01/sex_assault.pdf

I wonder if this means there could be unreported rapes and sexual assaults or just mishandled rapes and sexual assaults. ???

 

[sammi89]

Slightly OT, but I saw that IU-Bloomington made this list (55 colleges investigated over sexual violence complaints):

http://www.cnn.com/2014/05/01/us/colleges-sex-complaint-investigations/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

http://www.cnn.com/2014/images/05/01/sex_assault.pdf

I wonder if this means there could be unreported rapes and sexual assaults or just mishandled rapes and sexual assaults. ???

I checked whether IU released a statement, which they have, but it sounds like it might be routine compliance review?

http://www.wthr.com/story/25403328/...n-vincennes-on-sex-assault-investigation-list

http://www.indystar.com/story/news/...nes-title-ix-scrutiny-sexual-assault/8565103/

IU spokesman Mark Land says the university is taking part in a routine compliance review of how it addresses reports of sexual assault. The U.S. Department of Education’s Office of Civil Rights has received no complaints against the college that would have triggered an investigation, he said, and IU was randomly selected for review.

I'm not sure they would necessarily admit to having problems though.

 

[Ixchel13]

Slightly OT, but I saw that IU-Bloomington made this list (55 colleges investigated over sexual violence complaints):

http://www.cnn.com/2014/05/01/us/colleges-sex-complaint-investigations/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

http://www.cnn.com/2014/images/05/01/sex_assault.pdf

I wonder if this means there could be unreported rapes and sexual assaults or just mishandled rapes and sexual assaults. ???

unbelievable to see our prez speaking out against rape. moving and powerful message for everyone. Bloomington needs this kind of inspiration because there are too many assaults. Almost every week the IDS has a report of some kind of assault, it seems.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...=bYaNtyMMyij3bFObnAcVgQ&bvm=bv.65788261,d.aWw

 

[VeryVeritas]

Slightly OT, but I saw that IU-Bloomington made this list (55 colleges investigated over sexual violence complaints):

http://www.cnn.com/2014/05/01/us/colleges-sex-complaint-investigations/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

http://www.cnn.com/2014/images/05/01/sex_assault.pdf

I wonder if this means there could be unreported rapes and sexual assaults or just mishandled rapes and sexual assaults. ???

Incidently, IU Bloomington also ranks 13th in the whole country for Party Schools. That is no small thing...

http://www.fiestafrog.com/top-20-party-schools-2013-2014/

 

[VeryVeritas]

No matter whom else might be involved, JR is still covering up and is involved, IMO, so this is in no way an attempt to make 5N POIs seem guilt free.

Snipped.

This is the most rational and on track post I have seen from you in a long time.

After years of hashing out the facts from hundreds of links and thousands of posts and discussions, coupled with the ongoing Civil Case, I do agree that JR is involved and is covering up. He made himself central to the case for some reason.

Will he take the hit for it?

For example: If instead of walking LS home, or being initially focused on her condition, what if DR and/or other guest saw her as an <modsnip>? It was JR's place, JR's party, JR's booze, JR's friends and perhaps JR's fill in the blank ------. It goes foul either in JR's place, in a vehicle, etc... But as a result of these forgoing circumstances JR was put into the position to hold the bag so-to-speak. In a Civil Case it's pretty much a matter of $$, so what does JR lose/risk? A judgement that then gets appealed for years and may never get paid? That's pretty much par for the course if you are rich isn't it? I would think the only way he is going to crack is if there is enough evidence that can nail him on criminal charges.

 

[holly18]

Slightly OT, but I saw that IU-Bloomington made this list (55 colleges investigated over sexual violence complaints):

http://www.cnn.com/2014/05/01/us/colleges-sex-complaint-investigations/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

http://www.cnn.com/2014/images/05/01/sex_assault.pdf

I wonder if this means there could be unreported rapes and sexual assaults or just mishandled rapes and sexual assaults. ???

Thank you for posting this. I'm sure I've mentioned this before but I went to a really small (mainly female) school, and there were still rapes that went unpunished (in every way. IE the victim having to leave the school and the perpetrators being totally let off, even if their excuse was "she was black out drunk! She had fun!"). Many of my friends who went to much larger schools have said that a lot of people were sexually assaulted decided not to report it because of a lack of cooperation from the school. I wouldn't be even slightly surprised if IU has a similar coverup/deal with it inhouse policy. I think (IMO!) that might be why the spierers requested academic records. Any number of POIs (including 5N, JW and many others) may have been accused of rape/sexual assault but it was never brought to LE.

 

[holly18]

Snipped.

For example: If instead of walking LS home, or being initially focused on her condition, what if DR and/or other guest saw her as an <modsnip>? It was JR's place, JR's party, JR's booze, JR's friends and perhaps JR's fill in the blank ------. It goes foul either in JR's place, in a vehicle, etc... But as a result of these forgoing circumstances JR was put into the position to hold the bag so-to-speak. In a Civil Case it's pretty much a matter of $$, so what does JR lose/risk? A judgement that then gets appealed for years and may never get paid? That's pretty much par for the course if you are rich isn't it? I would think the only way he is going to crack is if there is enough evidence that can nail him on criminal charges.

Snipped by me. I've thought about this before. Its awful to consider, as heinous and unforgivable the idea of Lauren ODing and someone not calling 911 is, the idea of this happening (imo) is even more devastating. I still think its something to be considered, but I personally find it hard to think about and others probably also do as well.

Also worthy to note: depending on how the various finances are set up in these families, JR/CR might not be worth much. If they have trust funds, yes they are worth a lot, but if their parents haven't set up trust funds for them, they might have very few assets to seize. Their parents would be able (with the help of a good financial advisor) to set up something where the bulk of the money isn't available to them, or anyone suing them, but they get an interest pay off each year.

 

[ontheclock]

I've always had a strong feeling that Lauren was sexually assaulted that night.

 

[imkeylime]

Thank you for posting this. I'm sure I've mentioned this before but I went to a really small (mainly female) school, and there were still rapes that went unpunished (in every way. IE the victim having to leave the school and the perpetrators being totally let off, even if their excuse was "she was black out drunk! She had fun!"). Many of my friends who went to much larger schools have said that a lot of people were sexually assaulted decided not to report it because of a lack of cooperation from the school. I wouldn't be even slightly surprised if IU has a similar coverup/deal with it inhouse policy. I think (IMO!) that might be why the spierers requested academic records. Any number of POIs (including 5N, JW and many others) may have been accused of rape/sexual assault but it was never brought to LE.

I never thought about that, re: academic records. That's an interesting thought.

I'm really not sure about the parameters of the study, but I feel it's a good effort, regardless. I once worked for the publications department of a regional university ... and I was appalled to learn that our "sister" department, news services, had withheld news about a rape to the local media. That was MANY years ago, but what a bad aftertaste it left. Women felt safe because they hadn't been told the truth!

 

[VeryVeritas]

Snipped by me. I've thought about this before. Its awful to consider, as heinous and unforgivable the idea of Lauren ODing and someone not calling 911 is, the idea of this happening (imo) is even more devastating. I still think its something to be considered, but I personally find it hard to think about and others probably also do as well.

Also worthy to note: depending on how the various finances are set up in these families, JR/CR might not be worth much. If they have trust funds, yes they are worth a lot, but if their parents haven't set up trust funds for them, they might have very few assets to seize. Their parents would be able (with the help of a good financial advisor) to set up something where the bulk of the money isn't available to them, or anyone suing them, but they get an interest pay off each year.

Right Holly... that was my point. When you have millions you know how to protect it very well. First pay the best lawyer in the state to try to crush the case, then if there ever is a judgement (look how many years have passed and now the trial is still 1 year out, and don't be surprised if that gets pushed yet another year out!) there are various kinds of appeals that can push it many years further into the future if it doesn't get dissolved. So someday maybe 5 to 10 years from now there might actually be a judgement. But it's a well known fact that most judgements never get paid. For exactly the reasons you stated, either people are broke, look broke, or keep themselves looking broke. Yes, money in trusts, corporations owned by offshore corporations owned by other offshore corporations, etc... they own nothing have no assets etc... This is what is wrong with Justice in the USA, UK, and other oligarch countries. Essentially $$ makes you above the law.
So, the Spierers should know they will never see money from this.
And I'm sure they could care less about the money.
That's not why they would be going through this.

Pretty much the 2 best things that could happen are:
1) Evidence emerges that convinces a grand jury to indict JR and prosecute criminally. Then JR makes a deal and reveals the truth.
2) Someone anonymously gives a tip that reveals the body location so the Spierers can have some closure

 

[VeryVeritas]

I've always had a strong feeling that Lauren was sexually assaulted that night.

Just curious what facts or aspects of this case caused you to feel that way?

For me it has a lot to do with the hiding of her body, and the length of time it continues to be missing. If the hiding were only for drugs, it's almost like why bother? Even so, not like it should be anything extensive or professional.
But hiding it to destroy DNA linked to rape could be construed as 1st degree murder. So much more motivation to destroy it or to keep it a secret.

 

[kpeacock]

I wouldn't be even slightly surprised if IU has a similar coverup/deal with it inhouse policy. I think (IMO!) that might be why the spierers requested academic records. Any number of POIs (including 5N, JW and many others) may have been accused of rape/sexual assault but it was never brought to LE.

Snipped by me.

I wonder if the academic records (disciplinary actions, grievances, etc.) are connected at all to the request for member info for AEPi:

The Spierers also are seeking documents identifying members of IU's Alpha Epsilon Pi fraternity from 2008 to 2012. Spierer's boyfriend was a member of the fraternity, as were several of her friends.

http://legalpronews.findlaw.com/article/8ae608741683a8360a1f4c2b34dc153b#.U2MvGD1dXD0

In context with the closing of AEPi due to hazing in January 2008: JW started IU in 2007 according to LinkedIn. Not sure when JR started, but it's reported that both were AEPi's in 2008, which means as it was getting shut down. Freshmen? Would that make them part of the initiated/hazed/whatever frats call their first year guys? (http://www.wthr.com/story/7765853/iu-closes-fraternity-for-hazing)

Interesting to me that the first article states they want documents identifying members - are they trying to place other possible guests from the parties that evening? AF?