In my right hand is the blue pill, in my left the red pill

[DeeDee249]

If I'm not mistaken,JB's funeral dress had a high neck on it.(Deedee is good with things like this,am I right?) It was a used dressed she had never worn before,one which was to be worn in an upcoming pageant.I'm not saying Patsy particularly had that in mind while carrying out this crime,but the neck area isn't difficult to conceal,what with high collars and scarves and such,always being a possibility.

Of course, I haven't seen a photo of JB in her coffin, although it would not surprise me to learn that one exists. But most of the typical pageant dresses do have high necks. While girls wear several costumes at each pageant, most of the frilly (and expensive) dressy dresses have high necks and usually puffy sleeves, as well as the typical very full skirt, with lots of crinolines.
Also, JR allegedly put a scarf in the coffin with JB, don't know if he placed it on her neck or across her throat.
You'd be surprised what mortuary make-up can actually cover, but I do not think PR would have had her appear in the coffin with that mark on her.

 

[BBB167893]

Very succinct, SD.

I'd take that as a compliment if it weren't such a deliberate twisting of what I said.

Thats exactly what I've been trying to say! In each kidnap for ransom case we've discussed, it was one thing that led to another, until finally that one single thing proved their guilt. The 'smoking gun'.

L&L: caught with ransom note typewriter
LaMarca: caught with ransom note handwriting
Lindbergh: caught with ransom money
Mackle: caught with ransom money

You're forgetting several things, HOTYH. First of all, it assumes that there always IS a smoking gun. There isn't. That's just a fact. 90% or cases are solved using exactly the approach I keep hammering at. Secondly, those criminals didn't have the "lived in the house so of course my forensics are there" excuse. Which in turn led to Third, the police in this case did not separately interview the Rs until MONTHS later.

Even though the R's lived in the house, there is not one single thing that proves RDI.

Right: it's only when you look at everything. That's the key part you left out.

There's no 'smoking gun' even thought they lived there.

As I said, most cases don't HAVE smoking guns, and that's especially true in domestic homicide cases. I really don't know why I keep saying this, since it has yet to do me any good, but I might as well keep at it on the off-chance that someone reading this will understand what I mean, so here goes again:

Cases like this are not solved on the forensic evidence. They're solved by separating the two principles and grilling them until one turns on the other one.

Maybe you folks haven't noticed, but that was the whole point I was trying to make when I started the "cross fingerpointing defense thread," which likewise came to less than I was hoping for.

If you ask me, BPD has done an OUTSTANDING job. Keep up the good work.

If that was sarcasm, I agree with you.

 

[BBB167893]

Oh you can use wedding w/death

Okay. Do you want attribution?

You being a sith lord and me being a jedi, I'd prefer a duel to the death

As would I. But we can't always get what we want.

Did the profilers look at PR's biography and reverse-engineered their profile to fit PR and then engaged in group think to convince themselves of its truth?

I'm pretty sure they did NONE of those things. In fact, I believe that doing so is a big no-no in that line of work.

I forget who exactly but didn't some profilers say that JAMESON was a young male or something?

No profilers said that.

There are numerous examples of profilers being completely dead-wrong, including the Unabomber (who was thought to be uneducated, and retarded) and DC sniper (thought to be white male)

I didn't think you'd take the easy way out, voynich. I really didn't.

 

[BBB167893]

Also, JR allegedly put a scarf in the coffin with JB, don't know if he placed it on her neck or across her throat.

THAT's what I was trying to remember! Thank you.

 

[voynich]

Okay. Do you want attribution?



As would I. But we can't always get what we want.



I'm pretty sure they did NONE of those things. It's all in the books (including mine).



No profilers said that.



I didn't think you'd take the easy way out, voynich. I really didn't.

I'd think it'd be awesomely cool and fun to be listed in your book.

So you're saying that the profilers did something like a clean room reverse engineering in that had no idea whatsoever of who PR was as they read the RN and compiled their profile?

I don't see this as the easy way out. They knew who PR was, they read her biography, and they then selectively picked out those parts of the RN that fits her life story to conjure up the missing data tapes.

I thought donald foster said Jameson was JAR or some such nonsense.

 

[voynich]

In my view the Danielle Van Dame story shows that a key RDI premise -- that an IDI could not go in and out of the R's house while they were sleeping, and leaving behind nearly no forensic evidence, fiber, DNA, fingerprints, footprints, forced entry, is falsified by a real world crime counterexample.

Hence, the red pill.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

In my view the Danielle Van Dame story shows that a key RDI premise -- that an IDI could not go in and out of the R's house while they were sleeping, and leaving behind nearly no forensic evidence, fiber, DNA, fingerprints, footprints, forced entry, is falsified by a real world crime counterexample.

Hence, the red pill.

Note to Darth Maul: don't look down!

 

[voynich]

Note to Darth Maul: don't look down!

Haupman pulled of something similar in that he entered Charles Limbergh's premises, left an RN, and he left behind no fingerprints. No fingerprints were recovered in the cs. All fingerprints were wiped down. The only evidence there was a ladder which was obviously staged by Mr. Linbergh to mislead investigators into thinking some German guy did this.

 

[BBB167893]

I'd think it'd be awesomely cool and fun to be listed in your book.

Provided I get it published. But you've got it.

So you're saying that the profilers did something like a clean room reverse engineering in that had no idea whatsoever of who PR was as they read the RN and compiled their profile?

I didn't say that. What I said was that they didn't just read her biography and say, "yeah, she did it." And truth be told, they couldn't have known that much about her. There was considerably more homework done than that. I'd be happy to go over it with you.

I don't see this as the easy way out.

It's a way to avoid thinking about how they arrived at their conclusions in a professional manner.

They knew who PR was, they read her biography, and they then selectively picked out those parts of the RN that fits her life story to conjure up the missing data tapes.

That's a bold accusation, voynich. And it seems to conflict with the facts as I know them.

I thought donald foster said Jameson was JAR or some such nonsense.

One, he's not a profiler. Two, like so many of the stories surrounding his involvement with this case, that one is a kernel of truth wrapped in a big pile of lies.

 

[BBB167893]

In my view the Danielle Van Dame story shows that a key RDI premise -- that an IDI could not go in and out of the R's house while they were sleeping, and leaving behind nearly no forensic evidence, fiber, DNA, fingerprints, footprints, forced entry, is falsified by a real world crime counterexample.

Hence, the red pill.

I think you misunderstand, voynich. It's not so much that someone couldn't have done it. It's the sheer improbability of someone spending more than a few minutes there and doing it. Danielle Van Dam and JB are apples and handgrenades.

 

[voynich]

Provided I get it published. But you've got it.



I didn't say that. What I said was that they didn't just read her biography and say, "yeah, she did it." And truth be told, they couldn't have known that much about her. There was considerably more homework done than that. I'd be happy to go over it with you.



It's a way to avoid thinking about how they arrived at their conclusions in a professional manner.



That's a bold accusation, voynich. And it seems to conflict with the facts as I know them.



One, he's not a profiler. Two, like so many of the stories surrounding his involvement with this case, that one is a kernel of truth wrapped in a big pile of lies.

How many words/pages could you summarize in their arrival at a conclusion "in a professional manner", and how much did they know of PR and allowed that to influence their profile, in say 300 words?

 

[voynich]

I think you misunderstand, voynich. It's not so much that someone couldn't have done it. It's the sheer improbability of someone spending more than a few minutes there and doing it. Danielle Van Dam and JB are apples and handgrenades.

What makes Westerfield's ability to penetrate the shield generator to kidnap an Ewok any less likely than red-5?

 

[JMO8778]

You stand a 99% chance of killing your daughter if you try to out smart [sic] us. Follow our instructions and you stand a 100% chance of getting her back. You and your family are under constant scrutiny as well as the authorities. Don't try to grow a brain John. You are not the only fat cat around so don't think that killing will be difficult. Don't underestimate us John. Use that good southern common sense of yours. It is up to you now John!
​

I can see your reading. I'm not saying it is wrong, but I don't see it conclusively ruling out sentence as alluding to killing JB -- your daughter being omitted since it was understood.

'your daughter' had already been used 5x in the note..there is no reason at this point to leave it out,per the author's writing style..it was a glaring omission.it was meant to convey a statement to John...by Patsy,IMO.

You stand a 99% chance of killing your daughter if you try to out smart [sic] us. Follow our instructions and you stand a 100% chance of getting her back. You and your family are under constant scrutiny as well as the authorities. Don't try to grow a brain John. You are not the only fat cat around so don't think that killing you or your daughter will be difficult. Don't underestimate us John. Use that good southern common sense of yours. It is up to you now John!


If PR did indeed write this, why wasn't she more clear in her threats on JR? I'd expect more from a journalism major.

she couldn't just come right out and say it,knowing LE was going to be all over it..so she included an inside family joke,so John would make the connection.

You are not the only fat cat around so don't think that killing you as well as your daughter will be difficult.

?

no,if it was about JB,then it would have read:You are not the only fat cat around so don't think that killing your daughter will be difficult.

 

[BBB167893]

How many words/pages could you summarize in their arrival at a conclusion "in a professional manner", and how much did they know of PR and allowed that to influence their profile, in say 300 words?

PMPT and JonBenet: ITRMI contain all of that information, voynich.. But I'm game, so I'll oblige you.

Before we get started, though, I have to ask: you don't necessarily think the intruder HAD to be a stranger, do you?

Let's see. 300 words? Okay, I'll try.

Firstly, they started out only with the physical evidence: the tape, etc. They then figured in JB's social status, her constant supervision, the lack of serious injury to her vagina, the improbability of a foreign faction referring to itself as small or foreign, the fact that JB was not dumped outside, and most interestingly, voynich, they did exactly what you've been doing: comparing it to other cases.

Guess it didn't take 300 words after all!

Oh the other hand, if you want examples where someone read PR's biography and used that to decide they COULDN'T have done it, THAT I can give you plenty of!

 

[JMO8778]

Of course, I haven't seen a photo of JB in her coffin, although it would not surprise me to learn that one exists. But most of the typical pageant dresses do have high necks. While girls wear several costumes at each pageant, most of the frilly (and expensive) dressy dresses have high necks and usually puffy sleeves, as well as the typical very full skirt, with lots of crinolines.
Also, JR allegedly put a scarf in the coffin with JB, don't know if he placed it on her neck or across her throat.
You'd be surprised what mortuary make-up can actually cover, but I do not think PR would have had her appear in the coffin with that mark on her.

I think there was a painting awhile back,maybe just an artist's perception of it though,but Patsy's comment 'she looks perfect',of course no doubt indicates her neck and or the wounds had been hidden.

 

[voynich]

PMPT and JonBenet: ITRMI contain all of that information, voynich.. But I'm game, so I'll oblige you.

Before we get started, though, I have to ask: you don't necessarily think the intruder HAD to be a stranger, do you?

Let's see. 300 words? Okay, I'll try.

Firstly, they started out only with the physical evidence: the tape, etc. They then figured in JB's social status, her constant supervision, the lack of serious injury to her vagina, the improbability of a foreign faction referring to itself as small or foreign, the fact that JB was not dumped outside, and most interestingly, voynich, they did exactly what you've been doing: comparing it to other cases.

Guess it didn't take 300 words after all!

Oh the other hand, if you want examples where someone read PR's biography and used that to decide they COULDN'T have done it, THAT I can give you plenty of!

I plan to write either Revenge of the IDI, or Return of the IDI, but I do not believe the R's knew IDI.


That's what I thought. When I speak of a clean-room, would any profiler, or any critically thinking person, reading only this RN, and reading the movie references and other RN's, but not anything else, conclude a middle age married woman, white, Southern, mother of 2, upper middle class, fondness of French, wrote this note, and that it is more likely that a mother wrote it than an adolescent or young adult white male?

 

[BBB167893]

I plan to write either Revenge of the IDI, or Return of the IDI, but I do not believe the R's knew IDI.


So they didn't know this person, correct?


That's what I thought.

Meaning what?

When I speak of a clean-room, would any profiler, or any critically thinking person, reading only this RN, and reading the movie references and other RN's, but not anything else, conclude a middle age married woman, white, Southern, mother of 2, upper middle class, fondness of French, wrote this note, and that it is more likely that a mother wrote it than an adolescent or young adult white male?

I see. Key words: "Reading only this RN." As I said, they looked at a lot more than that. But in all honesty, the way some of them explained it (quoted in the book, as are you), it's a question of finding which habits pop up in certain writings, then seeing who matches up with it, not the other way.

 

[voynich]

Meaning what?



I see. Key words: "Reading only this RN." As I said, they looked at a lot more than that. But in all honesty, the way some of them explained it (quoted in the book, as are you), it's a question of finding which habits pop up in certain writings, then seeing who matches up with it, not the other way.

that's what I thought = they looked at "all" of the evidence, explained DNA as innocent transfer, concluded PRDI, then went on a fishing expedition in the RN, then reverse engineered how the RN supports PR

"which habits pop up in certain writings" does PR quote or show knowledge of list of movies in any written correspondence, email, letter, greeting card? has any RDI shown that certain phrases used in RN show up in PR's previous writings in a way that cannot be explained as chance or coincidence?


Are there any online 300+ words of PR in any written correspondence, quoted in entirety, prior to dec 26, 1996 that I may look at?

Perhaps it'd be best to list it as a new post "samples of PR writing, prior dec 96"

 

[Ravyn]

Now you know we won't fimd no writtings with anything like the RN cause remember they never seen such movies

 

[BBB167893]

that's what I thought = they looked at "all" of the evidence,

That's right.

explained DNA as innocent transfer,

The profilers didn't do that.

concluded PRDI, then went on a fishing expedition in the RN, then reverse engineered how the RN supports PR

You're twisting everything around. I'd be happy to straighten it out.

"which habits pop up in certain writings" does PR quote or show knowledge of list of movies in any written correspondence, email, letter, greeting card?

Not a list of movies, but a few other things.

has any RDI shown that certain phrases used in RN show up in PR's previous writings in a way that cannot be explained as chance or coincidence?

As a matter of fact, I believe I can do that. But this time, I'll do it my way.

Robert Ressler, founder of the Behavioral Sciences Unit:

He also noted that the acronym at the bottom of the note was done with periods between each letter, as was "FBI." Putting periods between letters in acronyms is a grammatical touch that has not been standard since the late 1960s. Patsy was born on December 29, 1956 and would have been a kid learning her English lessons in school before then. In those turbulent times, many organizations came along with "alphabet soup" names, and none of them used periods. There was SDS--Students for Democratic Society; PLO- Palestinian Liberation Organization; NOI-- Nation of Islam; SLA-- Symbionese Liberation Army (the people who kidnapped Patty Hearst and made the term "Stockholm Syndrome" famous); and the list goes on and on. Patsy was known to sign her letters to friends with acronyms with periods in them. One that stood out was "To B.V.F.M.F.A. from P.P.R.B.S.J." That meant "To Barbara V. Fernie, Master of Fine Arts from Patricia Paugh Ramsey, Bachelor of Science in Journalism." Ressler also pointed out the use of the word "attaché." It's a word with French origins. It is usually spelled with the accent over the "e" to denote the sound of an "a." Patsy had studied French and lived in Atlanta, which has a strong undercurrent of French heritage. JonBenet's own name is a pseudo-French version of her father's first and middle names, John Bennett. It is always spelled with the accent over the second "e." Who else would bother with something like that?

I like my way better!

Are there any online 300+ words of PR in any written correspondence, quoted in entirety, prior to dec 26, 1996 that I may look at?

Perhaps it'd be best to list it as a new post "samples of PR writing, prior dec 96"

I can look. But don't hold out a lot of hope.