Japan - Miyazawa family of 4 murdered, Setagaya, Tokyo, 30 Dec 2000 #2

[fridaybaker]

This is just a little example highlighting my thoughts above. When my longtime childhood friend and I were about 19, she suddenly starting stealing. This was utterly out of character for her. I was stunned. I had no idea how to handle it. She would go into stores and steal clothing, jewelry, make-up, what-have-you.

She didn’t have a lot in life, but even at my young age I knew that that wasn’t the reason, but that there was something else inside her, emotionally, driving this shocking behavior. (I really can’t quite express what a stunning thing this was to me. I could have understood it more at 12 or 13, but at 19 we were adults. It was so beyond the realm of appropriate behavior. I was just reeling.)

I had no idea what to do about it, and I didn’t feel like there was anyone I could talk to about it, so I just kept my own counsel and hoped it would work itself out. I really thought that it would. No real idea why, but I just thought it would. And it did. She eventually returned to her “old self”.

You see, my friend had some very difficult things she was dealing with in life, including having to “parent” two alcoholic parents. No, she didn’t kill anyone, but life can be so very hard at that age, and we often simply aren’t equipped to deal with it. At some level, I understood this concept of “displacement”. Acting out, in an aggressive way, not at those in immediate proximity to one’s life, but at those outside of it. Substitutes.

I can easily see a scenario involving a young man that started on Yakota Air Force Base, and ended in Setagaya; close enough to get to easily, but far enough away from his “life”. A place, and a vulnerable group of people, wherein to vent the rage inside. Just like my friend didn’t steal from me (part of her “life”). She focused her displaced emotions outside of her daily life and on what were essentially nameless, faceless strangers. Not murdering them, but stealing from them.

 

[Sillybilly]

The choice of hat adds another layer of curiosity; a hat typically associated with an older man seems an unusual selection for a 15 year old. Did he purchase it? The deliberation behind choosing that 'old man' hat could offer insights into his mindset. May be he was older after all, like 20-25 or even older?
The purpose behind acquiring the knife also raises interesting questions.

<rsbm>

Just breezing through the thread so apologies if this has already been discussed.

Bucket hats are/were not just "old man" hats ... and they were fashionable in the 1990s and early 2000s.

from: A Brief History of the Bucket Hat

"In the late 1990s and early 2000s, the hat became a staple in the hip-hop fashion scene, and was worn by many prominent artists, such as LL Cool J, Outkast, and Missy Elliott. The hip-hop community embraced the bucket hat as a symbol of urban culture, and it became a popular accessory among rap and hip-hop fans."

 

[Sillybilly]

ADMIN NOTE:

This post lands at random.

Please move on from speculation around specific mental health conditions. It can be offensive to individuals who do suffer from specific disorders and who are not murderous individuals. "Not all red headed boys ..."

None of us are psychiatrists or mental health experts, and obviously none of us knows the perp, so we are not in a position to diagnose.

Thank you.

 

[FacelessPodcast]

Nothing to move the investigation along here, but thinking about Nic’s description of his POI as “arrogant”. If so, it would sure fit into a scenario as this. Many, if not most, 18 year-olds are ill equipped emotionally to deal with the blows that life throws at one, but if this young guy had to confront a devastating rejection (and let’s face it, a romantic rejection at this age can be overwhelming to the soul and psyche) and on top of that has never been told “no” before, thinks he’s entitled, etc., I can see how this could play out. If he’s arrogant, he likely thinks he’s owed, and when he’s rebuffed, “somebody’s got to pay”.

I also agree that this is just the type of scenario wherein he may never commit murder again. As he ages, he’s better able to deal with the pains and affronts and all the other garbage that life is so full of. Oddly enough, this “mistake”, for him, was likely part of his growth process, just like so many of our mistakes in young life are. His was just on a massively different scale, because he was massively immature, and massively more entitled than most of us.

Whether or not Nic’s particular POI is “the one”, the scenario in general is starting to look more and more like a very good fit all the way around.

Thank you for this post, @fridaybaker. Just to be clear, it was former associates of the POI who described him as arrogant, not me. (I've never spoken with him. However, it did stand out to me that almost every single one of them used the same word. Also, for a little detail -- I did not say, 'what do you think about X?' -- I went through certain groups to try to ensure their answers were organic and unprompted).

RE: your point about 18-year-olds, absolutely, that's my reading too. In the case of this POI, it wasn't just rejection but also things outside of his control that then maybe sparked that rejection.

And to reference the words of David Canter, in many cases, those that commit murder, once they realise what they've done, feel the fear of God in them at their actions. It is such a powerful fear, that they never act out again.

 

[FacelessPodcast]

This is just a little example highlighting my thoughts above. When my longtime childhood friend and I were about 19, she suddenly starting stealing. This was utterly out of character for her. I was stunned. I had no idea how to handle it. She would go into stores and steal clothing, jewelry, make-up, what-have-you.

She didn’t have a lot in life, but even at my young age I knew that that wasn’t the reason, but that there was something else inside her, emotionally, driving this shocking behavior. (I really can’t quite express what a stunning thing this was to me. I could have understood it more at 12 or 13, but at 19 we were adults. It was so beyond the realm of appropriate behavior. I was just reeling.)

I had no idea what to do about it, and I didn’t feel like there was anyone I could talk to about it, so I just kept my own counsel and hoped it would work itself out. I really thought that it would. No real idea why, but I just thought it would. And it did. She eventually returned to her “old self”.

You see, my friend had some very difficult things she was dealing with in life, including having to “parent” two alcoholic parents. No, she didn’t kill anyone, but life can be so very hard at that age, and we often simply aren’t equipped to deal with it. At some level, I understood this concept of “displacement”. Acting out, in an aggressive way, not at those in immediate proximity to one’s life, but at those outside of it. Substitutes.

I can easily see a scenario involving a young man that started on Yakota Air Force Base, and ended in Setagaya; close enough to get to easily, but far enough away from his “life”. A place, and a vulnerable group of people, wherein to vent the rage inside. Just like my friend didn’t steal from me (part of her “life”). She focused her displaced emotions outside of her daily life and on what were essentially nameless, faceless strangers. Not murdering them, but stealing from them.

This is a very sad story, @fridaybaker. I'm glad your friend found her way out of that period.

In relation to your point about the POI, I see it the same way. I cannot put my hand on my heart and say it is definitely him who is the culprit. But, ignoring that there is no other suspect in 23 years, he fits this crime and killer in almost any conceivable way so far.

 

[Dr. Snoop]

To be clear; the TMPD are able to use DNA in their investigations. And that is to compare it to the existing DNA database. If there is a match, then they have their culprit.

That’s as far as DNA can go due to the lack of a legal framework for any other use. This is why Chief Tsuchita is campaigning for the laws to change. If the TMPD were able to use newer DNA investigative techniques such as genetic genealogy, there would be no need for him to do so.

From what I can gather, the limitations pertain to the public dissemination of DNA based facial images. As reported in the JT article Police still hoping killer's DNA will break 20-year-old Setagaya multiple murder case :

But Japan lags behind other countries in these techniques, and in addition, the law prevents exploratory profiles of crime suspects from being made public. For authorities to make public the names and photographs of murder victims but protect suspected perpetrators strikes Tsuchida as highly inequitable.
"If we could generate a montage photo (composite image) based on the DNA, perhaps someone in the neighborhood might recall having seen him, and provide some useful clue," he says.

However, the police can proceed with using all currently available techniques and tools for their internal operations. I'm fairly certain they have already done so, but this information is not accessible to the public (or retired police officers.)

 

[FacelessPodcast]

From what I can gather, the limitations pertain to the public dissemination of DNA based facial images. As reported in the JT article Police still hoping killer's DNA will break 20-year-old Setagaya multiple murder case :


However, the police can proceed with using all currently available techniques and tools for their internal operations. I'm fairly certain they have already done so, but this information is not accessible to the public (or retired police officers.)

No, they pertain to all uses of DNA beyond the standard method I’ve stated. These limitations span genetic snapshots, familial DNA, so on, so forth. There is no legal framework for their use. I know this first-hand based on, among various other sources, the very Chief quoted in this article you have just posted — a man who I have interviewed at length.

 

[Janitor101]

I haven't started reading through the threads yet, but I have been intrigued by this case for years!

 

[FacelessPodcast]

I haven't started reading through the threads yet, but I have been intrigued by this case for years!

Welcome, @Janitor101. We are both very much in the same intrigued boat!

 

[Janitor101]

Welcome, @Janitor101. We are both very much in the same intrigued boat!

Thank you! The last time I delved into it was a few months ago so its time to refresh myself then tackle these threads. Cheers!

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

As I understand it, Japanese LE can only make comparisons to the DNA of criminals who have already been arrested and had their DNA entered into the *LE* database. Any other DNA databases are completely off limits, and likewise familial DNA comparisons are completely off limits.

Japanese law simply doesn't allow for testing a DNA sample against millions of innocent, random people.

And to be honest, whilst familial testing has solved many cases which otherwise wouldn't have been solved, I do think it could be argued the method is in a morally grey area. So I can see where the Japanese are coming from with their concerns, even if I personally have no objection to it.

 

[Incoherent]

As I understand it, Japanese LE can only make comparisons to the DNA of criminals who have already been arrested and had their DNA entered into the *LE* database. Any other DNA databases are completely off limits, and likewise familial DNA comparisons are completely off limits.

Japanese law simply doesn't allow for testing a DNA sample against millions of innocent, random people.

And to be honest, whilst familial testing has solved many cases which otherwise wouldn't have been solved, I do think it could be argued the method is in a morally grey area. So I can see where the Japanese are coming from with their concerns, even if I personally have no objection to it.

Correct on all counts.
This is why they’re relying on a fingerprint match coming up so much. Unless things change on this front here in Japan, the DNA they have simply can’t be legally used in any other way than they’ve already used it.

 

[Incoherent]

Thank you for this post, @fridaybaker. Just to be clear, it was former associates of the POI who described him as arrogant, not me. (I've never spoken with him. However, it did stand out to me that almost every single one of them used the same word. Also, for a little detail -- I did not say, 'what do you think about X?' -- I went through certain groups to try to ensure their answers were organic and unprompted).

SBM: in this case do you think your POI is aware of the questioning and that someone is asking about him? I know you’re unable to divulge too much info to us, but I’m curious under what pretext you questioned the associates if you can say?

 

[Charlot123]

Nothing to move the investigation along here, but thinking about Nic’s description of his POI as “arrogant”. If so, it would sure fit into a scenario as this. Many, if not most, 18 year-olds are ill equipped emotionally to deal with the blows that life throws at one, but if this young guy had to confront a devastating rejection (and let’s face it, a romantic rejection at this age can be overwhelming to the soul and psyche) and on top of that has never been told “no” before, thinks he’s entitled, etc., I can see how this could play out. If he’s arrogant, he likely thinks he’s owed, and when he’s rebuffed, “somebody’s got to pay”.

I also agree that this is just the type of scenario wherein he may never commit murder again. As he ages, he’s better able to deal with the pains and affronts and all the other garbage that life is so full of. Oddly enough, this “mistake”, for him, was likely part of his growth process, just like so many of our mistakes in young life are. His was just on a massively different scale, because he was massively immature, and massively more entitled than most of us.

Whether or not Nic’s particular POI is “the one”, the scenario in general is starting to look more and more like a very good fit all the way around.

I understand that people mature differently, and yet if in Florida Derek Rosa is arrested and charged for murdering his mother, and he is only 13. TBH, I do feel sorry for Derek. And yet maybe in such cases, when we feel compassion, we have to admit that many such killers are a menace to the society, and judge them simply for the harm they’ve done.

Same with the Setagaya murders. I don’t care if four murders were the part of the perp’s growing process. He smothered a 6-year-old child. The father was butchered when trying to protect his family. The daughter ended up with broken vertebral column. He butchered the mother protecting her child. Thinking of all the pain and fear that these people had to experience before death, I can not be sure he will not commit murder again. I think he is afraid to try again, but that’s all to it.

 

[FacelessPodcast]

SBM: in this case do you think your POI is aware of the questioning and that someone is asking about him? I know you’re unable to divulge too much info to us, but I’m curious under what pretext you questioned the associates if you can say?

I approached people who belonged to a certain group and asked them generalities. They knew only that I have interest in a crime which may connect to that time period and that group. Also, they knew that I could not answer or clarify any of their questions. Within that group, I expressed interest in people, or couples, mentioned by the interviewee that I had no actual interest in. That way, when they organically mentioned the POI, my follow-up questions would not tip my hand. Moreover, I picked people that I knew had interacted and shared groups with my POI, but strove to avoid those that had a solid likelihood of being close to him to this day. I can't really give any more detail than that, I know this all sounds very vague.

It's entirely possible the POI is aware of my interest in him. However, given FACELESS, he would know that much already as a broad concept. If one of these classmates were to somehow mention to him that I had been sniffing around, I would imagine there's enough doubt for him to definitively put two and two together. Unless, I happened to have questioned one of his friends who was aware of the POI's involvement in the murders. At any rate, even if he knows, I don't really think it would change anything a great deal. His best bet is to continue flying under the radar. Especially now that he has a career, a family, etc.

 

[FacelessPodcast]

I understand that people mature differently, and yet if in Florida Derek Rosa is arrested and charged for murdering his mother, and he is only 13. TBH, I do feel sorry for Derek. And yet maybe in such cases, when we feel compassion, we have to admit that many such killers are a menace to the society, and judge them simply for the harm they’ve done.

Same with the Setagaya murders. I don’t care if four murders were the part of the perp’s growing process. He smothered a 6-year-old child. The father was butchered when trying to protect his family. The daughter ended up with broken vertebral column. He butchered the mother protecting her child. Thinking of all the pain and fear that these people had to experience before death, I can not be sure he will not commit murder again. I think he is afraid to try again, but that’s all to it.

To be clear, I want to understand him. I do not want to sympathise with him.

Having seen Setsuko's pain, alone in her 90s, at the loss of her family; having spent so many years deep in this case, my overriding emotion is outrage. If / when a second podcast comes together and if / when I set eyes on the POI (if he turns out to be the culprit) that is an emotion I will have to control. The temptation to make him feel a fraction of the terror the Miyazawas must have suffered that night will be very present.

 

[Incoherent]

I approached people who belonged to a certain group and asked them generalities. They knew only that I have interest in a crime which may connect to that time period and that group. Also, they knew that I could not answer or clarify any of their questions. Within that group, I expressed interest in people, or couples, mentioned by the interviewee that I had no actual interest in. That way, when they organically mentioned the POI, my follow-up questions would not tip my hand. Moreover, I picked people that I knew had interacted and shared groups with my POI, but strove to avoid those that had a solid likelihood of being close to him to this day. I can't really give any more detail than that, I know this all sounds very vague.

It's entirely possible the POI is aware of my interest in him. However, given FACELESS, he would know that much already as a broad concept. If one of these classmates were to somehow mention to him that I had been sniffing around, I would imagine there's enough doubt for him to definitively put two and two together. Unless, I happened to have questioned one of his friends who was aware of the POI's involvement in the murders. At any rate, even if he knows, I don't really think it would change anything a great deal. His best bet is to continue flying under the radar. Especially now that he has a career, a family, etc.

And why would he do anything different now right? It’s been 23 years, and he’s arguably one of the luckiest murderers to date. Especially in Japan. Potentially sitting tight and cosy away from here and not changing a thing is in his best interests.

What you explained and the way you did it, rather than just vague, makes complete sense in the way you approached it.

I don’t doubt for a second the lengths the TMPD have gone, and still continue to, to find this man - but I’m as equally grateful for the Miyazawa family that there is someone as invested as you are in the case and pursuit of the murderer.

 

[dotr]

Wondering if the POI would be considered attractive or not, what about his family, both at the time of the murders and now?
Does anybody think that the killer reads and/ or posts here? speculation.

 

[Incoherent]

Wondering if the POI would be considered attractive or not, what about his family, both at the time of the murders and now?
Does anybody think that the killer reads and/ or posts here? speculation.

The case is incredibly well known in Japan. It’s also covered extensively by YouTubers in the West as well as True Crime enthusiasts. If the POI has any kind of online presence I don’t doubt he is somewhat aware of his infamy.

 

[FacelessPodcast]

Wondering if the POI would be considered attractive or not, what about his family, both at the time of the murders and now?
Does anybody think that the killer reads and/ or posts here? speculation.

He's not a bad-looking guy. Certainly, when he was younger, it seems he was desirable. And he's now married etc. When you say what about his family, what do you mean @dotr?

As for whether or not he reads here, I guess it's possible. It wouldn't shock me if he likes to stay up with the latest in this case (it would make sense for his own personal interests). Alternatively, he has blocked it out of his mind. Dissociated his past self / past actions from who he is today. I could see either being true.