JB/wine cellar

[madeleine]

Madeleine, I also don't understand why they would have cleaned the batteries of fingerprints, but I also believe if this flashlight had not belonged to the Ramseys, they would have shouted it from the roof tops.

Yes,I would have asked LE for a copy of the photo,I would have put it online ,see if someone recognizes it I guess.But that's me.

 

[DeeDee249]

I'd like to ask RDI why they think the R's bothered to clean the batteries?It doesn't make sense.IF it was theirs then it would have been normal for their prints to be on it.On the other hand why even leave it there if it's incriminating?Full of dirt?
IMO it wasn't their flashlight.And the lack of prints on the batteries is one + point that favors IDI IMO.

It makes sense if you try to imagine that they knew they had used it that night, either as a bludgeon or to walk around the house. The only way they could distance themselves from the flashlight was to say it wasn't theirs. To do that, the batteries couldn't have their prints. For both IDI and IDI, wiping the flashlight itself fits. But wiping the batteries only fits RDI, because an intruder wouldn't have prints on the batteries, and wouldn't care if the Rs prints were on them. As far as suggesting the BATTERIES were added to that very long list of things the intruder brought in with them- why bring batteries to a flashlight you wouldn't know was there? And if you were going to bring a flashlight, wouldn't you bring a smaller one, that fit in a pocket or something?
Patsy was asked about this flashlight and said theirs "looked like it" but she couldn't say if it was theirs. When LE asked her to point to (in the crime photos) where she kept "their" flashlight, she pointed to an open drawer, which did not have a flashlight in it. When LE pointed this out, Patsy conceded this could have been theirs.
The distancing from the flashlight is like the distancing from the pineapple and tissue. Patsy bought pineapple for JB all the time. Also like distancing from the tissue. Patsy said she usually bought the "other" shaped box (the square boutique box), while the one on the table was the standard rectangular shape. To suggest the intruder brought a box of tissues with him flies in the face of reason.

 

[MurriFlower]

It makes sense if you try to imagine that they knew they had used it that night, either as a bludgeon or to walk around the house. The only way they could distance themselves from the flashlight was to say it wasn't theirs.

But they DIDN'T say it wasn't theirs! PR said it looked like the one JAR gave to JR. Remember, she was looking at a photo (and a not too clear one at that) of the flashlight, not at the actual object.

To do that, the batteries couldn't have their prints. For both IDI and IDI, wiping the flashlight itself fits. But wiping the batteries only fits RDI, because an intruder wouldn't have prints on the batteries, and wouldn't care if the Rs prints were on them.

BUT the IDI didn't leave any prints anywhere, so why did he need to take out the batteries and wipe the R's prints off them? Or are you suggesting that the R's had a flashlight with either no batteries or flat batteries, so the IDI had to bring his own LOL.

As far as suggesting the BATTERIES were added to that very long list of things the intruder brought in with them- why bring batteries to a flashlight you wouldn't know was there? And if you were going to bring a flashlight, wouldn't you bring a smaller one, that fit in a pocket or something?

Hows about the flashlight belonging to the Rs had been taken by someone who was in the house (and who also coincidentally pilfered a few other things like a writing pad and pen just like the ones the RN was written on) put new batteries in (cause there's no point in a flashlight without a light - oh, unless of course, you just want it so you can bash a kid senseless), mindful of not leaving prints and then left it behind when they left in a hurry, cause the whole shebang had gone pear shaped.

Patsy was asked about this flashlight and said theirs "looked like it" but she couldn't say if it was theirs. When LE asked her to point to (in the crime photos) where she kept "their" flashlight, she pointed to an open drawer, which did not have a flashlight in it. When LE pointed this out, Patsy conceded this could have been theirs.

Yep, see above. It probably WAS theirs. Someone took it and then brought it back when they came that night.

The distancing from the flashlight is like the distancing from the pineapple and tissue. Patsy bought pineapple for JB all the time. Also like distancing from the tissue. Patsy said she usually bought the "other" shaped box (the square boutique box), while the one on the table was the standard rectangular shape. To suggest the intruder brought a box of tissues with him flies in the face of reason.

Or she was distanced from it because she didn't buy any of those items. Someone else in the house did.

 

[DeeDee249]

You mean like her husband or 9-year old son? If someone living in my house buys an item instead of me, I at least know it was bought. I don't think an intruder came into my home and left a box of tissues or a flashlight (that looks like mine).
The reason there was absolutely NO intruder prints found in anywhere at all is because there was no intruder.

 

[MurriFlower]

You mean like her husband or 9-year old son? If someone living in my house buys an item instead of me, I at least know it was bought. I don't think an intruder came into my home and left a box of tissues or a flashlight (that looks like mine).
The reason there was absolutely NO intruder prints found in anywhere at all is because there was no intruder.

This hardly even warrants a reply, but here goes. Perhaps it was THE HOUSEKEEPER??

 

[ukrberserker]

Same re the flashlight.
Let's say RDI and the flashlight was used in the staging or in the murder.Why wipe it clean?It would have been normal for the R's prints to be there,no one would have questioned them about it I am sure,the suspicion started when the R's didn't recognize it.I think they are telling the truth re this one.
>The flashlight is one + to the IDI theory in my opinion.

It says here on the forum that the flashlight was a gift to JAR from JR. One more thing that places him at the scene, and it would be logical for him to wipe the prints off.

 

[Darlene733510]

The chair that was in front of the wc door had to be moved by someone. I don't recall who moved the chair away from the door. I wonder if that chair was tested for prints. I know that, being in the R's house there could have been many prints on it. Instead of the suitcase being out under the window, I wonder why the chair wasn't put there, if it was to be the means of escape, as LS used in his fairy tale demonstration?

 

[Chrishope]

The chair that was in front of the wc door had to be moved by someone. I don't recall who moved the chair away from the door. I wonder if that chair was tested for prints. I know that, being in the R's house there could have been many prints on it. Instead of the suitcase being out under the window, I wonder why the chair wasn't put there, if it was to be the means of escape, as LS used in his fairy tale demonstration?

The chair wasn't placed under the window because the original plan was not to stage the scene as if there were a forcible break in with the "intruder" coming in/out the window. JR had made sure to tell LE that all windows and doors were locked and that he (JR) had broken the basement window months earlier when he'd been locked out.

The idea that the suitcase was used to stand on was not formulated until LS effectively started playing for team Ramsey, after the murder.

IOWs the "intruder theory" ala LS was cooked up using whatever evidence was available, not what made sense from the actual evidence at the scene. Had the original plan been to claim the "intruder" escaped through the window, the chair would be more plausible than the suitcase - as something to stand on. Therefore the chair would have been under the window.

As far as prints, only those of an "intruder" would tell us anything. If we found any or all R family prints on the chair there would be nothing suspicious about that.

Sine the DA office was acting as an info conduit to team R, we can surmise that if there were stranger prints on the chair, that info would have been leaked.

 

[UKGuy]

The chair wasn't placed under the window because the original plan was not to stage the scene as if there were a forcible break in with the "intruder" coming in/out the window. JR had made sure to tell LE that all windows and doors were locked and that he (JR) had broken the basement window months earlier when he'd been locked out.

The idea that the suitcase was used to stand on was not formulated until LS effectively started playing for team Ramsey, after the murder.

IOWs the "intruder theory" ala LS was cooked up using whatever evidence was available, not what made sense from the actual evidence at the scene. Had the original plan been to claim the "intruder" escaped through the window, the chair would be more plausible than the suitcase - as something to stand on. Therefore the chair would have been under the window.

As far as prints, only those of an "intruder" would tell us anything. If we found any or all R family prints on the chair there would be nothing suspicious about that.

Sine the DA office was acting as an info conduit to team R, we can surmise that if there were stranger prints on the chair, that info would have been leaked.

Chrishope,
How about the original plan had been precisely what you outlined, but once it was abandonded the suitcase was taken off the chair and the chair placed away from the window, so to dispel any suspicion.

As you suggest the rest is Lou Smit's theory, which we all know is nonsense. So the chair probably does not make sense in his theory but will make sense if an R was creating a fake crime-scene, which was then changed?


.

 

[Chrishope]

Chrishope,
How about the original plan had been precisely what you outlined, but once it was abandonded the suitcase was taken off the chair and the chair placed away from the window, so to dispel any suspicion.

As you suggest the rest is Lou Smit's theory, which we all know is nonsense. So the chair probably does not make sense in his theory but will make sense if an R was creating a fake crime-scene, which was then changed?


.

That's certainly a possibility.

My belief is that the staging was incomplete when PR unexpectedly made the 911 call. The chair could have been moved away from the window as part of JR's attempt to downplay the intruder through the window theory.

Of course, we'll never know, and JR's fingerprints -if they are on the chair- aren't telling of anything.

What we do know is JR was pushing the "inside job" theory the morning of the 911 call. He was pushing the intruder through the window after LS got involved.

 

[UKGuy]

That's certainly a possibility.

My belief is that the staging was incomplete when PR unexpectedly made the 911 call. The chair could have been moved away from the window as part of JR's attempt to downplay the intruder through the window theory.

Of course, we'll never know, and JR's fingerprints -if they are on the chair- aren't telling of anything.

What we do know is JR was pushing the "inside job" theory the morning of the 911 call. He was pushing the intruder through the window after LS got involved.

Chrishope,

What we do know is JR was pushing the "inside job" theory the morning of the 911 call.

Which is consistent with JR abandoning an intruder staging, i.e. moving the chair.

He was pushing the intruder through the window after LS got involved.

Which contradicts his prior statements.

All of which suggests JR knew what he was doing.


Why do think the staging was incomplete when PR made the 911 call? What was absent?


.

 

[Chrishope]

Chrishope,

Which is consistent with JR abandoning an intruder staging, i.e. moving the chair.

Yes.

Which contradicts his prior statements.

Yes.

All of which suggests JR knew what he was doing.

Yes.

Why do think the staging was incomplete when PR made the 911 call? What was absent?

The grate still in place is one item still "absent" it should have been out on the lawn if an intruder through the window theory were being planned. Likewise the intact spider web, which would of course have been torn after removing the grate. If the chair were originally part of an intruder through the window scenario, then the grate and web had not yet been taken care of.

We know (or can reasonable surmise, if you prefer) that the plan was incomplete because PR called 911 before the body was dumped.

Inviting the police to find a RN and a dead body makes zero sense, so the plan must have included dumping the body. If PR were the co-conspirator there is no way she'd have made that call when she did.

 

[UKGuy]

Yes.



Yes.



Yes.



The grate still in place is one item still "absent" it should have been out on the lawn if an intruder through the window theory were being planned. Likewise the intact spider web, which would of course have been torn after removing the grate. If the chair were originally part of an intruder through the window scenario, then the grate and web had not yet been taken care of.

We know (or can reasonable surmise, if you prefer) that the plan was incomplete because PR called 911 before the body was dumped.

Inviting the police to find a RN and a dead body makes zero sense, so the plan must have included dumping the body. If PR were the co-conspirator there is no way she'd have made that call when she did.

Chrishope,
Ok so lets assume JR had broken the web up and moved the grating away from its position, then what?

Lets assume Patsy plays ball, reads the RN and asks JR what can we do, and JR says well we will have to play it safe for the sake of JonBenet, then what?

In the lone JDI theory just what was his plan, he presumably had been up most of the night, it was close on flight time, and he still had not finalized his staging, why so?

What the lone JDI theory seems to be saying is that John made a very large mistake, i.e. he placed the RN in the open, before finishing the rest of his staging, thereby curtailing any further advances?

.

 

[Anyhoo]

I still don't understand how one didn't see anything and the other saw her instantly.This will bug me until I drop dead.

The other lied about seeing her instantly. The other already knew where she was because he put her there. Do you really believe anything JR said, and if so why?

 

[Anyhoo]

Right. It was his biggest regret, he said later. He knew that not only did it allow irrevocable contamination of the crime scene, but he was aware that when children are reported missing and later found dead in the family home, that a family member is usually responsible.

As far as the mystery of why FW didn't see her and JR rushed right up to her (allegedly before the light was even switched on)- here's how I see it.
FW didn't know where the light switch was because it was in an odd place down low on the wall just outside the room. If he looked in a room that dark (remember- no window) he may NOT have seen her. The room was "L" shaped slightly and to see the body, you'd have to bend IN and look to the left or step into the room. Tests were done in the basement to see if there was enough light coming from the area just outside the wineceller to see inside the dark room. There was enough light that he should have seen her, especially covered with a white blanket- the wineceller wasn't THAT big. But still, unless he had his head bent INTO the room, he may not have seen her.

I don't think she was moved from another place. Only one livor pattern, and too risky once other people were in the house. BUT I do think that she may have been deeper in the room and JR went during his 2 hour disappearance where Arndt said she "thought" he went to get his mail (not true- the mail came into a slot in the front door- not a 2 hour job) and moved her body closer to the door. If you look at the pics of that room, JB's body where it was found was pretty close to the door. Even in the dark, she'd have been seen.
So to answer the last part about why JR saw her immediately- well- he knew where she was.
Think about it- JR supposedly was kidnapped from her own bedroom. When Arndt told JR to take another look around-, wouldn't you have rushed right up to her room first? Arndt said to see is anything of note was missing- a familiar doll or toy or some clothing. These things wouldn't be kept in the basement, and certainly not in the wineceller. Another suspicious thing is that the wineceller was still latched with the small wood latch (that nobody knew about unless they were familiar with that wineceller). The door could not be locked from the inside, so it's not like JB would have locked herself in there (or anyone else). The fact that JR went RIGHT to that room makes me believe he knew right where she was. And by this time, it was 1 PM- about 12 hours after her death. She already had an odor of decomposition. She NEEDED to be found. Waiting for cadaver dogs was not something that the Rs wanted to have happen.

Let me say what so badly needs to be said here: Had the police found the body it would not have made any difference in the outcome of this case. Whatever staging was done had been completed before the 911 call. The Ramsey's had no control over what the police did once they were at the house. The Ramsey's wanted the police to find the body. They expected it. When they didn't find it, JR had to bring it up for them. The 911 call's true purpose was to get the dead body out of the house. It is so obvious that both parents knew the score and were looking for a way out of the predicament they found themselves in. They were desperate to have her body found. Does this even need to be said?

 

[DeeDee249]

Let me say what so badly needs to be said here: Had the police found the body it would not have made any difference in the outcome of this case. Whatever staging was done had been completed before the 911 call. The Ramsey's had no control over what the police did once they were at the house. The Ramsey's wanted the police to find the body. They expected it. When they didn't find it, JR had to bring it up for them. The 911 call's true purpose was to get the dead body out of the house. It is so obvious that both parents knew the score and were looking for a way out of the predicament they found themselves in. They were desperate to have her body found. Does this even need to be said?

If you read my post, that is exactly what I did say. JR had to bring her up because she needed to be found. But I disagree that having police find her would not have made a difference. Had JR not been allowed to find (and handle) the body, there would have been no way to innocently explain the parents' fibers on her, or the tape. Had Patsy not been allowed to throw herself on the body, there would be no way to try to say that is how her fibers got into the cord. Had Officer French found her the crime scene would be untouched by anyone except the people who put her in there.

 

[txsvicki]

I've been wondering something about Patsy's clothing that morning. She is said to have worn a red sweater and black pants to the White's which she wore the next morning. But, Kolar's book mentions the jacket fibers being in the tray and on the cords. Was Patsy wearing that jacket when she threw herself onto JonBenet or just the sweater?

 

[BBB167893]

I've been wondering something about Patsy's clothing that morning. She is said to have worn a red sweater and black pants to the White's which she wore the next morning. But, Kolar's book mentions the jacket fibers being in the tray and on the cords. Was Patsy wearing that jacket when she threw herself onto JonBenet or just the sweater?

Just the sweater, that I know of.

 

[TroyinTX]

I wonder if the Ramsey's had knowledge of Janet McReynold's play "Hey Rube" in which a young girl is abused and tortured in a basement.?

I ask because it seems like a conscious attempt was made at making the perpetrator seem like someone who had an association with the Ramsey's. From the $118,000 ransom request, to specific things mentioned in the note, to JR saying it was an "inside job." I just wonder if knowledge of the play had anything to do with the choice of where the body was "discovered."

 

[DeeDee249]

I wonder if the Ramsey's had knowledge of Janet McReynold's play "Hey Rube" in which a young girl is abused and tortured in a basement.?

I ask because it seems like a conscious attempt was made at making the perpetrator seem like someone who had an association with the Ramsey's. From the $118,000 ransom request, to specific things mentioned in the note, to JR saying it was an "inside job." I just wonder if knowledge of the play had anything to do with the choice of where the body was "discovered."

Most people who knew the McReynolds knew about the book and knew that their OWN daughter was kidnapped (with a friend) and forced to watch as the friend was sexually assaulted. Both young girls were "returned home". I have always wondered why nothing more on this was revealed. I mean...sexual predators don't usually return their victims unharmed. This is the kind of incident that suggests the girls knew their abductor/abuser. Odd that it wasn't made more of at the time.
Obviously the housekeeper LHP had intimate knowledge of the R family. The spiral staircase (where the RN was left) was used as a "communications area) between Patsy and LHP- they left notes for each other on those stairs. A stranger would have left that note in the child's room- on the bed or someplace the parent would see right away. In the foyer or kitchen counter. That back stair is an unlikely place unless you knew the family's habits.
Now, both McReynolds were cleared early on after giving saliva, hair and writing samples. But I have always found them creepy, especially Janet. I mean, as a mother myself, I cannot imagine a mother writing a story like that. I do not know whether her daughter was abducted before or after she wrote that story, but either way it creeps me out. I mean, how do you pull that stuff out of your brain?
I do think the Rs chose LHP as their first "suspect". She needed money (had asked Patsy for a $2000 loan) knew the house well, as well as the wine cellar- she had her husband help drag the R artificial Christmas trees out of the wine cellar (where they were stored) so they knew about that room. She had a key to the house.
I think the Rs also felt LHP did not have the financial, educational or other resources to fight the accusations. LHO was interviewed right after the crime and gave writing, saliva samples, as did her husband. LE ruled them out right away, despite the obvious finger-pointing by the Rs. I think when JR uttered his comment to Arndt immediately after bringing her body up "This is an inside job" that LHP was exactly who he meant to suggest.