JLM: Psych Thread - Professional and Non-Professional Opinions/Theories

[SolVol]

Did you see this article? http://www.wset.com/story/26669474/classmate-of-jesse-matthews-speaks-out

One of JM's classmates from LU say's JM is basically slow and she would help him with his school work.

Coral Eugene Watts killed a lot of women and Watts suffered from mild mental retardation with a I.Q. of 75 and he had a delusional thought process. He also had a 3rd grade reading level when he was 16.

JLM had a lot of street smarts, but not book smarts. Unlearned, but corrupt (covetous, vengeful, angry, greedy) people have victimized their intellectual and moral superiors from the beginning of history. Look at Genesis 4.

The defense will have to prove scientifically that JLM was incapable of right judgment, not culpable for his actions, had brain damage, etc. (PET scans, empirically proven standard psychological examinations) and face an expert to prove JLM didn't know what he did was wrong, legally or morally.

Very unlikely, since he graduated from high school, held down jobs, carefully hid all his bodies, drove across the USA and changed his appearance so not to resemble the first Fairfax rapist sketch.

 

[ILOKAL]

Did you see this article? http://www.wset.com/story/26669474/classmate-of-jesse-matthews-speaks-out

One of JM's classmates from LU say's JM is basically slow and she would help him with his school work.

Coral Eugene Watts killed a lot of women and Watts suffered from mild mental retardation with a I.Q. of 75 and he had a delusional thought process. He also had a 3rd grade reading level when he was 16.

According to the Virginia Penal Code, if I understand it correctly, if Jesse is found to be mentally retarded he cannot receive the death penalty.

 

[MJPeony]

I do not see how a court could find JM mentally impaired- not knowing right from wrong- given his interaction with that man he confronted at the intersection. JM aggressively approached him, punched him, grabbed his phone, and then FELT REMORSEFUL and drove the man to the hospital. I don't know if his lawyers will argue that incident was a long time ago and he's deteriorated mentally (Sorry, I don't have the article in front of me and no link right now- I don't remember the year this occurred), but either way, even if a long time ago, he still had the aggression, provocation, and violence. And yet still knew right from wrong.

eta: ok, here's a link. Looks like this incident was in June of 2009
http://www.pressherald.com/2014/10/04/police-kidnap-suspects-history-rife-with-rage/

 

[ILOKAL]

I do not see how a court could find JM mentally impaired- not knowing right from wrong- given his interaction with that man he confronted at the intersection. JM aggressively approached him, punched him, grabbed his phone, and then FELT REMORSEFUL and drove the man to the hospital. I don't know if his lawyers will argue that incident was a long time ago and he's deteriorated mentally (Sorry, I don't have the article in front of me and no link right now- I don't remember the year this occurred), but either way, even if a long time ago, he still had the aggression, provocation, and violence. And yet still knew right from wrong.

eta: ok, here's a link. Looks like this incident was in June of 2009
http://www.pressherald.com/2014/10/04/police-kidnap-suspects-history-rife-with-rage/

Mentally retarded is now called "intellectually impaired" the basis for which is I.Q. IMO So knowing right from wrong might not be considered - I don't know.

 

[Davidbowiefan]

Perhaps he was just acting slow so she'd do his homework for him.

 

[MJPeony]

Mentally retarded is now called "intellectually impaired" the basis for which is I.Q. IMO So knowing right from wrong might not be considered - I don't know.

Yes, I think there are (at least) two things involved. Although I'm not a lawyer and I don't know for sure. But my understanding is that his IQ/intelligence being a factor in his defense is separate from "insanity" which is knowing the difference between right and wrong. So I guess by mental impairment, I meant legally insane. I'm saying that I can't see how one could legitimately argue he doesn't know right from wrong.

As for the IQ angle... no idea what they'll do with that. B/c yes, it looks like that is a different set of worms.

"Insanity is distinguished from low intelligence or mental deficiency due to age or injury.....The traditional test of insanity in criminal cases is whether the accused knew "the difference between right and wrong..." http://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=979

 

[MJPeony]

Perhaps he was just acting slow so she'd do his homework for him.

Bingo. Very likely possibility IMO.

 

[ILOKAL]

Yes, I think there are (at least) two things involved. Although I'm not a lawyer and I don't know for sure. But my understanding is that his IQ/intelligence being a factor in his defense is separate from "insanity" which is knowing the difference between right and wrong. So I guess by mental impairment, I meant legally insane. I'm saying that I can't see how one could legitimately argue he doesn't know right from wrong.

As for the IQ angle... no idea what they'll do with that. B/c yes, it looks like that is a different set of worms.

"Insanity is distinguished from low intelligence or mental deficiency due to age or injury.....The traditional test of insanity in criminal cases is whether the accused knew "the difference between right and wrong..." http://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=979

No, I'm not an attorney either, but I "think" insanity is a defense and the "intellectually disabled" would be part of the sentencing phase of a capital case. JMO

 

[jrporter]

Legal insanity has to do with understanding right from wrong at the time of the offense....

 

[ILOKAL]

Legal insanity has to do with understanding right from wrong at the time of the offense....

Yes, at the time of the offense.

 

[Ollie]

Obviously he abducted HG,assaulted her and hid the body and didn't tell anyone (because he knew what he did was wrong). If he was insane he would probably be bragging about it. My opinion is he's a psychopath ;planning and executing rape and murder; I don't think he's insane.

 

[teeandcee]

I do not see how a court could find JM mentally impaired- not knowing right from wrong- given his interaction with that man he confronted at the intersection. JM aggressively approached him, punched him, grabbed his phone, and then FELT REMORSEFUL and drove the man to the hospital. I don't know if his lawyers will argue that incident was a long time ago and he's deteriorated mentally (Sorry, I don't have the article in front of me and no link right now- I don't remember the year this occurred), but either way, even if a long time ago, he still had the aggression, provocation, and violence. And yet still knew right from wrong.

eta: ok, here's a link. Looks like this incident was in June of 2009
http://www.pressherald.com/2014/10/04/police-kidnap-suspects-history-rife-with-rage/

I have no doubt they could successfully spin this incident. That hair trigger temper followed by remorse reminds me a lot of a mentally retarded boy in our class when I was a kid. He had impulse control issues and knew immediately he'd been "bad" and would then feel sorry about it. Mind you, I don't think JM is slow in that way at all, but I can see his lawyers spinning it, especially if they get someone on the jury who has or knows a mentally challenged person like that. I've seen it here a gazillion times that if someone dares to even remotely connect any type of disorder to a criminal inevitably someone will take it personally because of their child/spouse/friend/relative who has said disorder and announce that not all "whatever" people are criminals and will then, usually successfully, shut down open discussion. Get someone like that on the jury and JM gets away with it.

 

[ILOKAL]

I have no doubt they could successfully spin this incident. That hair trigger temper followed by remorse reminds me a lot of a mentally retarded boy in our class when I was a kid. He had impulse control issues and knew immediately he'd been "bad" and would then feel sorry about it. Mind you, I don't think JM is slow in that way at all, but I can see his lawyers spinning it, especially if they get someone on the jury who has or knows a mentally challenged person like that. I've seen it here a gazillion times that if someone dares to even remotely connect any type of disorder to a criminal inevitably someone will take it personally because of their child/spouse/friend/relative who has said disorder and announce that not all "whatever" people are criminals and will then, usually successfully, shut down open discussion. Get someone like that on the jury and JM gets away with it.

If JLM is found competent to stand trial then I don't believe any mental retardation can be part of the defense. Probably (I don't know) the issue of any mental retardation (now referred to as intellectual disability) won't be allowed until the sentencing phase, AFTER a finding of guilty by the jury. Now a sanity defense is an entirely different thing. ALL IMO!

 

[SolverGameChanger]

Yes, I think there are (at least) two things involved. Although I'm not a lawyer and I don't know for sure. But my understanding is that his IQ/intelligence being a factor in his defense is separate from "insanity" which is knowing the difference between right and wrong. So I guess by mental impairment, I meant legally insane. I'm saying that I can't see how one could legitimately argue he doesn't know right from wrong.

As for the IQ angle... no idea what they'll do with that. B/c yes, it looks like that is a different set of worms.

"Insanity is distinguished from low intelligence or mental deficiency due to age or injury.....The traditional test of insanity in criminal cases is whether the accused knew "the difference between right and wrong..." http://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=979

I believe this is an informative reference about Psychologists roles within the court system.

http://psychologyinfo.com/forensic/criminal_court.html

There is a link at the side for Forensic Psychology. I believe there is a request for JLM to have a forensic phychology evaluation.

http://psychologyinfo.com/forensic/criminal_court.html

 

[SolverGameChanger]

And so based on the reference for forensic psychology, it may mean that JLM's lawyer is attempting to get a report from the court concerning JLM's past (child/adult who knows when) psychological trama to support their case.

Let me know, I might be wrong.

http://psychologyinfo.com/forensic/index.html

 

[HMSHood]

My thinking about Jesse Matthews is that he feels like a failure in life. He was recruited by Liberty University to play football, but was kicked out following allegations of rape.

I suspect he is driven by revenge and blames females for his problems in life. If I use analogs, Matthews comes off like a Ted Bundy, Coral Eugene Watts, Joel Rifkin, and Rodney Alcala. However, he is no that charming like Bundy or Alcala.

To get us back on track to the purpose of the thread.

Can anyone share information about JLM and perhaps noted reasons a psych eval would be considered?

Does anyone know if his lawyer knows the family from either his father or from when JLM was youth?

From news interviews of JLM acquaintances,

we believe is not too bright academically, friend said his ability to grasp basic reading ? or something other than that.

he can be very sensitive to rejection (friend said he was declined by a date in High School and cried),

Perhaps there is a history of poor decision making, evaluations, etc the lawyer can bring up to justify a psych eval let alone what he had done.

Had a bit of anxiety or insecurity because ( his friend said his feelings were easily noted

If he is sensitive to rejection, Matthews could have traits for Borderline Personality Disorder. The sensitivity to rejection is something I have seen in someone like Lori Drew, Casey Anthony, and Jodi Arias.

Many serial killers and psychopaths in general are deeply insecure and severely repressed.

 

[SolverGameChanger]

Perhaps he was just acting slow so she'd do his homework for him.

There are a lot of other people that knew him that also say he was a bit slow. I am trying to remember how a child remains quite when you are talking to them and they just nod their heads or smile when they actually don't know what you are saying, or they are trying to get away with something.

Has anyone had any kind of bad thoughts (which ever ones that make you feel guilty) but don't share them and don't know what to do with them ?

I can see JLM having these general thoughts about girls/women as a young teen. Then, as he grew older and more independent his thoughts became more specific and more frequent, then a few uncontrolled actons, those actoins lead into other actions that continue to be driven by his need to act in order to saticefy his mental pressure for a while.

I am sure a pschologist can do a better job a stating this.

 

[PricklyPear]

There are a lot of other people that knew him that also say he was a bit slow. I am trying to remember how a child remains quite when you are talking to them and they just nod their heads or smile when they actually don't know what you are saying, or they are trying to get away with something.

Has anyone had any kind of bad thoughts (which ever ones that make you feel guilty) but don't share them and don't know what to do with them ?

I can see JLM having these general thoughts about girls/women as a young teen. Then, as he grew older and more independent his thoughts became more specific and more frequent, then a few uncontrolled actons, those actoins lead into other actions that continue to be driven by his need to act in order to saticefy his mental pressure for a while.

I am sure a pschologist can do a better job a stating this.

OK, I'm going to repeat what my therapist and psychiatrist both have told me about OCD: Having intrusive/bad thoughts that make you feel guilty/upset/horrified but that you can't stop thinking is a hallmark of OCD, and people with OCD hardly ever commit the crimes they obsess about.

In the reading I've done, psychologists are very specific about differences between obsessions and fantasies. The simplest version, as I understand it: Obsessions are thoughts people are disgusted by and don't want to act on, but can't stop thinking. Fantasies bring pleasure. Most violent criminals fantasize about their crimes. Most people who have violent or sexual obsessions do everything they can do avoid following through on their obsessions. Speaking from my own experience with OCD, whenever I have had obsessions about hurting anyone, I avoid any kind of situation that might allow me to carry them out. I've read about people who compulsively self-injure to relieve their obsessions of harming someone else.

That said, I'm not a psychologist or an expert of any kind. I can't say it never would (or never has) happened. If someone has obsessive thoughts plus some other problem that might damage or remove their self-control (like some kind of psychotic break, another mental illness on top of OCD, head trauma - which actually could be the case for JLM, drug and alcohol use, etc.), maybe it could/does happen.

But what I'm getting at is that if JLM had thoughts about hurting or killing women, they were probably more likely to be fantasies than obsessive/intrusive thoughts. I can't speak for everyone with OCD, but I know if I ever followed through on one of my obsessions, I'd either turn myself in immediately or commit suicide so I could never do it again. From what I've read, both by psychologists and other people with OCD, that feeling is pretty common. I definitely wouldn't hang around for 12 years repeating it as often as I could get away with, which is what JLM appears to have done.

Some links:
http://iocdf.org/expert-opinions/expert-opinion-violent-obsessions/
http://ocd.about.com/od/livingwithoc1/a/Sexual-Obsessions-In-Ocd.htm

 

[Ollie]

Since JM has been moved to Fairfax( per Coy Barefoot),I think the legal wheels are moving . I think Camblos is trying for a psych exam to stretch for time, and try to gain some defense momentum;I would suspect the attys would try and move the case to a different venue (too much pre-trial media coverage?) again stretch for control. It gives me some satisfaction to know JM days won't be easy;he's in DC with a bunch of tough players around him 24/7; he won't be popular for sure.

 

[jrporter]

My thinking about Jesse Matthews is that he feels like a failure in life. He was recruited by Liberty University to play football, but was kicked out following allegations of rape.

I suspect he is driven by revenge and blames females for his problems in life. If I use analogs, Matthews comes off like a Ted Bundy, Coral Eugene Watts, Joel Rifkin, and Rodney Alcala. However, he is no that charming like Bundy or Alcala.



If he is sensitive to rejection, Matthews could have traits for Borderline Personality Disorder. The sensitivity to rejection is something I have seen in someone like Lori Drew, Casey Anthony, and Jodi Arias.

Many serial killers and psychopaths in general are deeply insecure and severely repressed.

Attributing Borderline Personality Disorder based on sensitivity to rejection is way off base in my opinion, and LJ does not play out like any BPD person that I've dealt with in mental hospitals or prison. I think that the possible social skills issues that can be comorbid with LD are much more likely...

According to Rick Lavoie:

The research indicates that individuals with learning disabilities:
•are more likely to choose socially unacceptable behaviors in social situations
•are less able to solve social problems
•are less likely to predict consequences for their social behavior
•are less likely to adjust to the characteristics of their listeners in discussions or conversations
•are less able to accomplish complex social interactions successfully (i.e.. persuasion, negotiation, resisting peer pressure, giving/accepting criticism, etc.)
•are more likely to be rejected or isolated by their classmates and peers
•are more often the objects of negative and non-supportive statements, criticisms, warnings and negative nonverbal reactions from teachers
•are less adaptable to new social situations
•are more likely to be judged negatively by adults after informal observation
•receive less affection from parents and siblings
•have less tolerance for frustration and failure
•use oral language that is less mature, meaningful or concise
•have difficulty interpreting or inferring the language of others