Jodi Arias; the sequence of events

[Eunoia]

my hubby keeps saying she couldn't drag him and put him in the shower. I say yea she could because look at Shelly Wright and her hubby. She drug him outside. (I think she used something though)

But have they ever said who the guy was that was at the car rental place? How old was her younger brother?

It's amazing the type of strength one could have in the middle of an adrenaline rush. Lucky for her, she had to drag him on a flat, solid, slippery wet, surface. It definitely would have been more difficult on carpet. Maybe why he had so many bruises too... I bet it was really hard to get him in that shower.

With that being said, I have zero doubt that she would be able to do it. She is clearly not the type of girl to just give up!

 

[danzn16]

While shooting him in the shower first makes sense, I still have some questions. Even though he was sitting down he was behind a glass door which she would have had to step back to open (range of shot came from 2 foot or more away so that would make sense), I find it hard to believe he would have sat there and let her shoot him without trying to protect himself with his arm up or his hands. It a normal reflex action he would have done without thinking. The last picture of him shows he knew what was coming, knew what she was capable of doing. The only defensive wounds on him are stab wounds on his hands.

JA could have caught him as he was trying to stand with the knife to the heart. I believe she went for the heart first because of TA's comment about being a sex toy with a heartbeat. It was personal and the remark to her was meant to be hurtful and personal.

When he continued to move around the room she kept stabbing him which is evident by the blood patterns throughout the room. TA then tried to get away from her by stumbling or crawling down the hallway where she continued to stab him in the back and finally cut his throat. Since the bed was stripped I could see her getting a sheet off the bed to use to drag him back into the bathroom. He was still making sounds so she had to make sure he was dead so she used the pillow to shoot him. My guess is he had another pillow for the bed which is missing.

The decorative rope from the pillow was on the stairs because it may have dropped off the pillow when she was removing all the bloody items from the house. Too much to put in the washer so she took those items with her. So she put him in the shower, ran the water while she put him in there and finished washing herself off, Turned off the water, got dressed in clean clothes and left. I would think the water all over the floor that ran into the closet was from the shower running while he was put in there and it overflowed onto the floor.

It's possible blood was on the back seat of her car because items may have been thrown in the back because she was afraid of being seen. She needed to get into the car fast to get away. It would have been still daylight out and the threat of people coming home from work, I imagine she rushed to get away.

JA's statement really does not match with what we know happened so I'm not inclinded to believe anything she might say as to the sequence of events. While there may be some truth in portions of her story I believe her goal was to throw everybody off with what she was telling them.

I agree, also there were no stippling or fouling marks from a close range gun shot wound like would be evident if she shot him close range in the shower.

 

[danzn16]

5. ME testified that the trajectory of the bullet could have caused blood to enter mouth and nose. This fits the blood spray and patterns around the sink which cannot really be explained any other way -- stabbing in the heart would not cause that kind of spray and would not cause blood in mouth and nose. Although I do think there was some testimony that the patterns could have been caused by Travis being stabbed while he was positioned at the sink.

snipped by me

Stabs to the back and chest could puncture a lung causing blood to enter the lung and could cause the blood spray during a cough also. Did the ME talk about what he though caused the spray? I haven't watched the trial so I do not know what the ME said about the stab wounds or spray

 

[danzn16]

http://picturepush.com/public/11992995



Here's an estimation of the bullet's path and what part(s) of the brain may have been affected and what those parts do. We are all shaped a little differently, so this is by no means accurate. It is possible that the bullet tumbled/wobbled a bit after striking/piercing bones, but in my opinion, this was probably its basic path.

Newbie here, can't seem to figure out how to post the picture, but the link is above.

With all due respect I don't think it's accurate to use a drawn picture to show the proximity of the brain to the front of the skull. I have attached my own brain MRI. As you can see from the front of the skull to the frontal lobe is mere centimeters. It was said the bullet entered from the right forehead above the brow and lodged in the left cheek. If you did a trajectory on an actual anatomical depiction of a brain MRI it would seem that it would have to enter the brain, as the medical examiner stated. Also if it did not it would pierce through the optic nerves leaving TA unable to see. Also gun shot wounds cause skull fractures upon entry and it's a high impact force causing concussive damage and shock to the brain that injures parts of the brain that were never touched by the bullet. I just think TA would have been unable to travel as far as he did with a gun shot wound to the face at such close range. Also if you study forensic pathology close range gun shot wounds leave burnt on shoot and burn wounds to the skin around the site of entry. It is debatable how close she would have shot him though I guess. I also think it's very telling that the medical examiner didn't find much blood inside the cranial cavity which would be indicative of the victim having bled out prior to the shot as otherwise much bleeding would have occurred as the scalp, facial area, eyes, and frontal lobe have extensive blood supply. Also I believe the medical examiner is the person that would know for certain whether the bullet entered the brain or not. He has seen inside of TA's cranial cavity. Even though the brain was too decomposed to examine the bones do not decompose. He would have been able to see the trajectory through the bones, it would have had to enter the cranial cavity and exit the cranial cavity into the cheek to hit the brain. I just can't imagine that it would just go through TA's sinuses and not enter his cranial cavity at all and this ME not be able to tell the difference in bony trajectory that never decomposes. There can be no error in that. This is why I believe TA was shot last. All MOO and JMO. I don't care about that spent cartridge, it could have been washed off, etc. It's all about forensically the bullet trajectory, blood loss, and ability of movement after a gun shot wound.

I hope one day after JA is convicted she decides to tell the details of what she did to TA!

 

[TaRazza]

With all due respect I don't think it's accurate to use a drawn picture to show the proximity of the brain to the front of the skull. I have attached my own brain MRI. As you can see from the front of the skull to the frontal lobe is mere centimeters. It was said the bullet entered from the right forehead above the brow and lodged in the left cheek. If you did a trajectory on an actual anatomical depiction of a brain MRI it would seem that it would have to enter the brain, as the medical examiner stated. Also if it did not it would pierce through the optic nerves leaving TA unable to see. Also gun shot wounds cause skull fractures upon entry and it's a high impact force causing concussive damage and shock to the brain that injures parts of the brain that were never touched by the bullet. I just think TA would have been unable to travel as far as he did with a gun shot wound to the face at such close range. Also if you study forensic pathology close range gun shot wounds leave burnt on shoot and burn wounds to the skin around the site of entry. It is debatable how close she would have shot him though I guess. I also think it's very telling that the medical examiner didn't find much blood inside the cranial cavity which would be indicative of the victim having bled out prior to the shot as otherwise much bleeding would have occurred as the scalp, facial area, eyes, and frontal lobe have extensive blood supply. Also I believe the medical examiner is the person that would know for certain whether the bullet entered the brain or not. He has seen inside of TA's cranial cavity. Even though the brain was too decomposed to examine the bones do not decompose. He would have been able to see the trajectory through the bones, it would have had to enter the cranial cavity and exit the cranial cavity into the cheek to hit the brain. I just can't imagine that it would just go through TA's sinuses and not enter his cranial cavity at all and this ME not be able to tell the difference in bony trajectory that never decomposes. There can be no error in that. This is why I believe TA was shot last. All MOO and JMO. I don't care about that spent cartridge, it could have been washed off, etc. It's all about forensically the bullet trajectory, blood loss, and ability of movement after a gun shot wound.

I hope one day after JA is convicted she decides to tell the details of what she did to TA!

Thank you so much for posting your MRI. That's really a huge help, and yes, I agree with the extent of injuries you've described, as well as the gunshot occurring last. I hope with all my heart that Arias is convicted--and that she does come clean with what she did to Travis, as well as a truthful reason why. (Although I'm not holding my breath on her telling the truth. By now we have a pretty accurate suspicion of the reason why she slaughtered him.) May justice prevail.

 

[Madeleine74]

I don't know the sequence of the wounds (stab first versus shot first) and it doesn't matter. It's first degree murder either way, the victim suffered either way, and regardless of what order she did it the judge ruled the murder counts as "heinous and cruel" and DP eligible.

Besides, who is going to let us know which scenario is the correct one?

 

[CJsmommy79]

Hi everybody!

This is my first time posting here so please forgive me if I make any mistakes! I am SO intrigued by this case and I think I agree with those of you think that Travis was stabbed first. This is what I think happened.

I think that while he was sitting in the shower that she made her first strike while he was in that position or getting out of that position. I wonder if maybe she offered to help him get up and while doing so stabbed him right in the chest. He stumbles out and over to the sink and she starts stabbing him in the back. He crawls out into the hallway where she stabs him some more in the back and slits his throat there in the bedroom area where that large stain is near the hallway. I think she shot him in the same spot she slit his throat. She drags him out and back into the shower. All in under what, 3 minutes? I can only imagine the rage and frenzy she was in and the terror that poor man felt

Unless Jodi decides to come clean no one will ever know the truth.

 

[Tiger09]

I think she stabbed him first, but she clearly had the gun and knife taped to her body under a shirt. She showed it to him and must have asked something like "Are you sure you're not taking me to Cancun?" That look on his face was like "No, I told you no" or "Wtf, you're crazy." And he really looked scared. She probably stabbed him, he came after her, did not change his mind like she thought he would, and he actually died. Well, no one else got him. She eventually shot him because he wouldn't stop coming after her because he was fighting for his life, which makes the twisted self-defense plea in her sick mind. Yeah, self-defense on Travis Alexander's part since he was fighting for his life that you stole from him.

 

[geokaren]

Hi, I'm a newbie but longtime 'lurker'. I have read all your posts on this topic and am conflicted. From a "Jodi logic" perspective (if I may be permitted a loose interpretation of the term) the shooting first makes sense. What perplexes me is the ME testimony and the previous poster's discussion using the MRI. So from a physical standpoint, shooting last makes sense but it doesn't jibe in terms of how she would be most likely to commit the crime.

Interesting that the previous poster mentions having weapons taped to her body. I have been wondering why the prosecution introduced the photo of the duct tape but then never mentioned it.

Guess that doesn't help in your discussion and I hope to learn more from your ongoing theories!

 

[SkiptomyLu]

With all due respect I don't think it's accurate to use a drawn picture to show the proximity of the brain to the front of the skull. I have attached my own brain MRI. As you can see from the front of the skull to the frontal lobe is mere centimeters. It was said the bullet entered from the right forehead above the brow and lodged in the left cheek. If you did a trajectory on an actual anatomical depiction of a brain MRI it would seem that it would have to enter the brain, as the medical examiner stated. Also if it did not it would pierce through the optic nerves leaving TA unable to see. Also gun shot wounds cause skull fractures upon entry and it's a high impact force causing concussive damage and shock to the brain that injures parts of the brain that were never touched by the bullet. I just think TA would have been unable to travel as far as he did with a gun shot wound to the face at such close range. Also if you study forensic pathology close range gun shot wounds leave burnt on shoot and burn wounds to the skin around the site of entry. It is debatable how close she would have shot him though I guess. I also think it's very telling that the medical examiner didn't find much blood inside the cranial cavity which would be indicative of the victim having bled out prior to the shot as otherwise much bleeding would have occurred as the scalp, facial area, eyes, and frontal lobe have extensive blood supply. Also I believe the medical examiner is the person that would know for certain whether the bullet entered the brain or not. He has seen inside of TA's cranial cavity. Even though the brain was too decomposed to examine the bones do not decompose. He would have been able to see the trajectory through the bones, it would have had to enter the cranial cavity and exit the cranial cavity into the cheek to hit the brain. I just can't imagine that it would just go through TA's sinuses and not enter his cranial cavity at all and this ME not be able to tell the difference in bony trajectory that never decomposes. There can be no error in that. This is why I believe TA was shot last. All MOO and JMO. I don't care about that spent cartridge, it could have been washed off, etc. It's all about forensically the bullet trajectory, blood loss, and ability of movement after a gun shot wound.

I hope one day after JA is convicted she decides to tell the details of what she did to TA!

I am a newbie on here. Thanks for letting me on board!
Thank you for the very insightful post! These are the precise reasons I do not think TA was shot first, though I do not have the technical prowess to explain it the way that you did. It seemed impossible to me that he would be able to function after a head wound, and I saw no way that it would not effect his mental capacity severely, and vision as you described, in order for him to move about as he did.

I have been the victim of an assault via a mugging in which the perp saw fit to hit my head against a sidewalk curb over and over until intervened/stopped. I had an open wound in the back of my head that required 3-4 staples, hence, not that big of a gash. What I do remember is how much it bled! It looked 1000 times worse than the wound really was. Head wounds are notoriously bloody. My point is that if the ME stated that he had apparently already "bled out" due to the lack of blood/bleeding witnessed from this gunshot wound, he was not shot first, IMO.

What amazes me is that JA, who I see as entirely narcissistic and a sociopath (for starters) would actually risk being A) overpowered by TA and thus caught, and B) injured and in pain herself had she been, again, overpowered. Except if JA had tied him up, restraining him with TA under the impression that JA was insinuating she was going to do something kinky to him, hence all of the fiber evidence at the crime scene.

Then again, it is absolutely impossible for me to understand the motives behind such heinous crimes… It gives me the 'heebie-geebies'. Granted, this is how I believe it happened IMO: stabbed, throat sliced when he had lost enough blood to relax enough for her to accomplish that horrifying near decapitation, and then shot.

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

Hi, I'm a newbie but longtime 'lurker'. I have read all your posts on this topic and am conflicted. From a "Jodi logic" perspective (if I may be permitted a loose interpretation of the term) the shooting first makes sense. What perplexes me is the ME testimony and the previous poster's discussion using the MRI. So from a physical standpoint, shooting last makes sense but it doesn't jibe in terms of how she would be most likely to commit the crime.

Interesting that the previous poster mentions having weapons taped to her body. I have been wondering why the prosecution introduced the photo of the duct tape but then never mentioned it.

Guess that doesn't help in your discussion and I hope to learn more from your ongoing theories!

Travis has duct tape on his right bicep in both photos of him on the bed, and you can see where it had been in the shower photos. None of us can figure out why.

 

[Tiger09]

The duct tape could have been used both sexually and it could have been somehow transferred onto him during the struggle. I usually don't mind looking at crime scene photos, but these just bother me. He looks a lot like my older brother. Arias also could have planted duct tape as well to go with her "ninja intruder" theory, but I really don't think she's that smart. Everyone knows she's not that great of a liar.

 

[SkiptomyLu]

Travis has duct tape on his right bicep in both photos of him on the bed, and you can see where it had been in the shower photos. None of us can figure out why.

I do not see the duct tape in the crime scene photo of the shower? Did they mention it during the trial, or anywhere else? I saw the lone picture of duct tape. I have only watched the very end (until the defense rests) and the fist 2 days.

Here is the video of Homicide detective Esteban Flores talking about the ornamental trim like fiber that was found in several places at the crime scene. It is in one of the images mixed in blood on the floor in the bathroom:

Jodi Arias Trial Day 2 (Part1) - Thurs. Jan 3, 2013
States witness, Esteban Flores, Case Agent, Homicide Detective, City of Mesa
http://youtu.be/qdiZADvLaEY

 

[darcedarce]

While she was taking pics of him, I am not sure he knew she was there at first. I think once he did, he told her to leave. He may have already thought she left the house. I think this is when she pulls out the gun, and tells him to sit down in the shower. She had this planned. She knew he would want to have a shower after their afternoon activities, and she may have got one to in another bathroom. ( this is why she is dressed). I think she has the gun on him, and he is scared. She opens up the shower door and shoots him in the head. The trajectory of the bullet seems to match a seated position and someone standing pointing the gun. I don't think it killed him. I think he pushed his way out of the shower, and that is the pic of the ceiling light. She tries to shoot him again and gun jams. I think their are truths in some of her lies. She thinks if she mixes truths in with her lies, they will be more believable. The only thing I am not understanding is the knife. Why did she have a knife AND a gun? I would think if she took the gun, that would be all she would do. Go in shoot him in the shower and leave. Was the knife a back-up?:waitasec: The rest of what happened I think everyone agrees on. He staggered around bloody while she stabbed him in the back. He turns to defend himself and she hits him from the front. By the time he gets to the end of the hall,she cuts his throat. I am guessing that he was screaming a lot. It appears that this poor man fought for his life. I do believe she went with a plan, and it would have worked out if the gunshot would have killed him.

Yep. I agree completely.

 

[LambChop]

The duct tape could have been used both sexually and it could have been somehow transferred onto him during the struggle. I usually don't mind looking at crime scene photos, but these just bother me. He looks a lot like my older brother. Arias also could have planted duct tape as well to go with her "ninja intruder" theory, but I really don't think she's that smart. Everyone knows she's not that great of a liar.

Another poster earlier suggested she might have had the knife taped to her skin under the top she was wearing. I would think the gun would be too heavy to duct tape to her skin. jmo

 

[pnkfreud]

Has anyone entertained the idea that JA had an hours long hostage situation with TA (as opposed to an hours long sexual marathon)? I may have missed a photograph, but not one of the photographs I've seen of TA strikes me as "posing." He seems humiliated and like he's trying to look away from the camera in every picture. Of the two pictures where his eyes are visable, one looks like he is mortified, and the other looks like he is desperate. The picture that NG keeps describing as TA flexing his bicep looks more like a man wringing his hands or trying to cover himself to me.

I can imagine JA holding him at gunpoint for hours taunting him with threats like, "bet your girlfriend won't be going on any trips with you after she sees these pictures," and "we'll see what the church elders think of you now," etc. She may have even set out thinking she could force him back into a relationship this way...who knows? I don't even believe TA took the pictures of JA. I think she took them using the timer (easy enough to pull off with TA duct taped).

Bottom line for me is that, because I honestly believe she was taking those pictures at gunpoint (even she said TA would never "allow" such pictures to be taken), it would be logical that she shot him first, and when the gun jammed on the second shot, she had to run to the kitchen for a knife. From that point on, the blood evidence pretty much tells the story.

JMHO

 

[geokaren]

I have seen the photo with Travis having the duct tape around his bicep and the one in the shower where you can clearly see where it had been. What I didn't get was why the prosecution introduced the photo of the duct tape but then never addressed it with any of the witnesses?

I suppose it is immaterial to the sequence, though. Just a random side question.

 

[SkiptomyLu]

I see Duct tape/Duct tape marks now….
So they have a thing for tying each other up… Possibly a ploy during the day in making it a good experience so that he would be at ease later on when she put him in restraints?

I never understood these ankle/foot injuries in the photo I'm linking until I was listening to the trial with testimony about the ornamental decorative rope - - The kind that pillows are trimmed with, tassels are made of, etc.

http://s1321.beta.photobucket.com/u..._865727365_n_zps0cfb600c.jpg.html?sort=3&o=11

I've worked with textiles and that fiber is usually synthetic, does not break easily at all, but if cut by scissors or knife are really slippery and separate all over the place just like it is in the crime scene pics.

Speculating that she could have restrained him in part with this material, creating the shallow wounds on his ankles?

I have no idea why the prosecution did not bring this up, while showing the images as evidence? Possibly they are waiting for the defense to bring it up to disprove their theory??

Sorry for getting off topic from the question on this thread.

 

[minor4th]

Another expert's explanation about how the gunshot could have come first:

http://www.hlntv.com/article/2013/01/22/what-really-killed-travis-alexander

 

[danzn16]

Another expert's explanation about how the gunshot could have come first:

http://www.hlntv.com/article/2013/01/22/what-really-killed-travis-alexander

Thanks for the alternate opinion! It's interesting to read!

Personally I don't think it makes any medical sense. Here's what he said:

Dr. Terry says, "If soon after receiving this gunshot wound, Mr. Alexander sustained a more significant injury that results in loss of blood, such as that cut across the neck or the stab wound of the heart then there might not be a whole lot of blood flowing up to the head to allow more bleeding into those soft tissues."

Ok, so if he was shot in the head and his throat cut immediately afterwards there would still be significant bleeding in his brain. This is because there is already blood in the brain and face already. There is also blood that enters the brain from the posterior part of the body through the spinal column that would still be intact and would still allow blood into the brain until the heart stops beating and until TA had no blood left in his body. So no this doesn't account for little blood in the brain issue. This is scenario is semi-plausible, not ridiculous but not possible IMO.

The other scenario Dr. Terry provided was if he was stabbed in the chest immediately after the shot to the head. OK what?!?!?! Then you have all your blood in your body that can go into your brain until your heart stops beating. There would be a even more significant amount of blood in the brain this way. If you puncture your heart you don't bleed out as fast as the throat slice through the carotids and jugulars. It can still function but not efficiently and it will fail. This scenario is ridiculous IMO.

And then if either of these scenarios were the case, the gun shot and then the immediate throat slice or stab to the chest, that caused so little blood flow to the brain that the brain couldn't even bleed from it's injury. Then there would be no blood in the brain for it to function, then how exactly did TA lean over a sink and then crawl out to a hallway? The brain needs blood and oxygen to function, to be conscious, to make your muscles move.

Uhh where did they get this guy??