John Ramsey Fabricated Open Basement Window "Evidence"

[Britt]

1:05 PM: John Ramsey and Fleet White, upon the suggestion of Detective Linda Arndt, go into the basement together to look for anything that seems to be out of place. They were told to not touch anything. They checked the broken basement window...

This is when John first explained away the broken window, telling Fleet that he (John) had broken it himself months earlier.

So, right from the get-go, John was trying to prevent a connection between the broken window and the crime. Why?

Was it because the window WAS connected to the crime? Did the perp hit the window during her/his attack on JonBenét?

 

[trixie]

Britt,

I don't know for sure. It should be in the cops' reports if they saw the window was broken but, unfortunately, we don't have access to those reports. However, Fleet found the window broken during his 6:20 AM search of the basement, so it was broken prior to the 5:52 AM 911 call, if that's what you were thinking about. But Fleet did not report the window as being open.

Frankly, I don't believe John visited the basement at all after the cops got there, as he claimed. It appears he made up that story to give credence to his intruder theory. Why would he wait four months before telling anyone about this obviously extremely important piece of information?

However, I do think John was in the basement hours BEFORE the cops arrived. The evidence supporting this is the chair that John says was blocking the trainroom doorway, and hence blocking the way to the window in the trainroom. He said he had to move the chair, and some boxes, to get into the room. But Rick French and Fleet White had entered the trainroom BEFORE John Ramsey claims he had entered it, at 6:05 and 6:20 respectively, and they didn't report any chair, or boxes, blocking the door.
Therefore, John had inadvertently mis-spoke during the interview when he revealed that he had to move the chair. He was obviously in the trainroom prior to the 911 call, even though he denies it.

John Ramsey had lied again.

BlueCrab

Hi Bluecrab, can you tell me where you got the information about what Rick French and Fleet White reported about having to move boxes and chairs that were blocking the door to the train room? I've never read anything like this before and I didn't know their statements were available to the public. This is an important point so I need to see proof of your statement before I can believe it as fact. Thanks.

 

[trixie]

I don't believe anyone came in through that window. I think the killers (plural) had a key. I feel it is possible that one or more left through that window.



Be fair, BC. FW said he was down there in the basement early that morning. FW said he found the window closed and unlatched. JR said that he went down there later, he found it open only 1/8 inch, and he closed it and latched it. The stories are not inconsistent.

You are right that the window was not open when FW first observed it, but they are both in agreement that it was unlatched, but I don't see it as being unlikely that an unlatched window can open and close in a breeze, so neither of them are necessarily lying on this point, and we're only talking about 1/8 of an inch. It could have been open that far when FW observed it, and he still could have perceived it as being "closed."

If it were a part of staging on JR's part, why didn't he open the window all the way and have more broken glass around? He says himself that it was open only 1/8 of an inch.



If he was lying, what was the point of his telling this story? He would have kept it quiet to make it look as if an intruder had broken the window. This indicates to me that he is telling the truth.



As far as JR's sneaking away, it was his house, and he was free to go into any room he wanted to, just as you are now. This does not necessarily indicate guilt, and it is not the Ramseys fault that the police did not follow the correct procedure.


Someone refresh my memory here -- I wasn't able to find this in a cursory search of PMPT. Who was down in the basement with Officer French that morning? Was it JR? Someone had told him that there wasn't an exit from the wine cellar, so neither of them bothered to look. Book and page # would be helpful.



Paradox, I disagree. John didn't lie about the broken window. He told the truth. He said he broke it the previous summer. If he were lying, he wouldn't have brought that up at all, and if someone else did, he would have denied it. That would have been lying. He told the truth about the window.

Now you be fair Shiloh. You know good and well John Ramsey was asked to stay with the group and he did not do that. He was not free to go into any room he wanted to. He was asked not to anyway. Obviously he must have thought the rules didn't apply to him. However, I do agree it with you that it doesn't indicate guilt on his part.

 

[shiloh]

Now you be fair Shiloh. You know good and well John Ramsey was asked to stay with the group and he did not do that. He was not free to go into any room he wanted to. He was asked not to anyway. Obviously he must have thought the rules didn't apply to him. However, I do agree it with you that it doesn't indicate guilt on his part.

No, honestly, I didn't know that. As I said, it's been a very long time since I've followed this case. I suppose that information is in PMPT?

But again I will say, JR did say that it was open only 1/8 of an inch, and that could easily have been observed by someone else as a closed window. It would have been better if he simply said "unlatched."

 

[trixie]

Hi Shiloh, yeah that fact is in just about every book written on this case. And I agree with you about the window. That's not far fetched at all. It's something I had never thought of before.

 

[BlueCrab]

But again I will say, JR did say that it was open only 1/8 of an inch, and that could easily have been observed by someone else as a closed window. It would have been better if he simply said "unlatched."

shiloh,

But that's like saying you're only a little bit pregnant. The window was OPEN (according to John).

John said he went to the basement to look for a point of entry for an intruder; and found one -- the window was open, he closed it, latched it, and then went upstairs and told no one. Does that make sense? It doesn't make sense to me; and if it doesn't make sense it's usually a lie.

John is the ONLY person who saw the window open, and he didn't say anything about the open window until FOUR MONTHS LATER. John's story simply isn't credible. He obviously made it up to give the imaginary intruder an imaginary point of entry.

But John was tripped up because there are two eyewitnesses who inspected the window BEFORE John inspected it, and the window wasn't open then or else they would have reported it.

BlueCrab

 

[michelle]

JOHN RAMSEY: "And actually I'd gone down there earlier that morning, into that room, and the window was broken, but I didn't see any glass around, so I assumed it was broken last summer. I used that window to get into the house when I didn't have a key. But the window was open, about an eighth of an inch, and I just kind of latched it."
.

BlueCrab

I never understood that, I mean am I getting this right, John actually left all the madness that was going on concerning JBR Kidnapping and seen a window disturbed and opened an didnt call the LE too see it instead he closes it and goes back up stairs???? Hmmm, I dont know about that....

 

[BlueCrab]

Hi Bluecrab, can you tell me where you got the information about what Rick French and Fleet White reported about having to move boxes and chairs that were blocking the door to the train room? I've never read anything like this before and I didn't know their statements were available to the public. This is an important point so I need to see proof of your statement before I can believe it as fact. Thanks.

trixie,

You apparently misunderstood my post.

Neither Rick French nor Fleet White had to move a chair and some boxes out of the way to get into the trainroom; only John Ramsey had to move the chair and boxes. Therefore, simple logic tells us that John Ramsey had to have been in the trainroom BEORE Rick French and Fleet White.

There probably aren't any written statements from Rick French or Fleet White about the chair and boxes because for them it was a non-event. Only if they had to move the chair and boxes would they have had reason to document it.

It reminds me of an official-looking historical marker I once saw along the road. Being a history nut I pulled over to read it. The marker said, "At this spot on March 15, 1834, nothing happened."

BlueCrab

 

[UKGuy]

trixie,

You apparently misunderstood my post.

Neither Rick French nor Fleet White had to move a chair and some boxes out of the way to get into the trainroom; only John Ramsey had to move the chair and boxes. Therefore, simple logic tells us that John Ramsey had to have been in the trainroom BEORE Rick French and Fleet White.

There probably aren't any written statements from Rick French or Fleet White about the chair and boxes because for them it was a non-event. Only if they had to move the chair and boxes would they have had reason to document it.

It reminds me of an official-looking historical marker I once saw along the road. Being a history nut I pulled over to read it. The marker said, "At this spot on March 15, 1834, nothing happened."

BlueCrab

BlueCrab,

Having Rick French or/and Fleet White confirm they did not move anything, would make Johns position untenable.

Even if they assumed the unlatched window was closed, John not reporting it that day or sooner just shouts suspicious behaviour at you!

.

 

[less0305]

Can someone explain to me why you close and latch a BROKEN window? What is the point? If the window is broken - can't anyone reach in, unlatch the damn thing, and open it right up? So why did John feel the need to close a window that was only open 1/8 of an inch and then latch it - and then NOT tell anyone that he did that? None of that makes any sense. Wouldn't John have assumed that if the window was broken then anyone on earth could have reached in and unlatched the window and used it for a point of entry? For that matter, when the police and Fleet saw the broken window - why didn't they assume an intruder could have reached in - unlatched the window and used that window as the point of entry? I'm really confused about this "broken" window. Did John ever explain that if he broke the window out to get in due to not having his key, then did he reach in and unlatch the window, open it, crawl in - and then not turn around and close it and relatch it at that time? It makes no sense to do all that and then once you're in you turn around and pull the window closed to within 1/8 of an inch and just leave it like that and go about your business. If you were going to close the window once you were in - why wouldn't you close it all the way and latch it with the intention of getting the glass repaired as soon as possible so no one else would be able to easily come in that window? John's lying, lying, lying!! Trying to explain the window dug his hole and was ludicrous. He just wasn't smart enough at the time to realize that. Kudos Blue Crab for bringing this up.

 

[BlueCrab]

Can someone explain to me why you close and latch a BROKEN window? What is the point? If the window is broken - can't anyone reach in, unlatch the damn thing, and open it right up? So why did John feel the need to close a window that was only open 1/8 of an inch and then latch it - and then NOT tell anyone that he did that? None of that makes any sense. Wouldn't John have assumed that if the window was broken then anyone on earth could have reached in and unlatched the window and used it for a point of entry? For that matter, when the police and Fleet saw the broken window - why didn't they assume an intruder could have reached in - unlatched the window and used that window as the point of entry? I 'm really confused about this "broken" window. Did John ever explain that if he broke the window out to get in due to not having his key, then did he reach in and unlatch the window, open it, crawl in - and then not turn around and close it and relatch it at that time? It makes no sense to do all that and then once you're in you turn around and pull the window closed to within 1/8 of an inch and just leave it like that and go about your business. If you were going to close the window once you were in - why wouldn't you close it all the way and latch it with the intention of getting the glass repaired as soon as possible so no one else would be able to easily come in that window? John's lying, lying, lying!! Trying to explain the window dug his hole and was ludicrous. He just wasn't smart enough at the time to realize that. Kudos Blue Crab for bringing this up.

less0305,

The hole in the window glass wasn't very big; about the size of a softball. There were thre panes of glass and the hole was in the center pane.

It appears to me that the entire broken window scenario, including the actual breaking of the glass, took place early on the morning of the 26th.

It's clear the "chair blocking the door" comment by John places him in the basement BEFORE Officer French and Fleet White searched the basement at 6:05 AM and 6:20 AM respectively, even though John denies he was in the basement and never searched for JonBenet in the basement prior to the cops getting there. And since John was likely in the basement very early that morning, then he certainly would have found JonBenet at that time. My guess is it was about 3 or 4 AM when John found JonBenet dead.

I pick 3 or 4 AM because the Ramseys claim they had set the clock alarm for 5:30 AM, yet they had to be at the airport at 6:30 AM. One hour would be an unnecessary and probably an unachievable timeline to achieve. They had to have set the alarm for a time earlier than that -- more likely some time around 3 or 4 AM.

I think John Ramsey or another family member broke the window and set the suitcase under it as part of the staging very early that morning. Why would a broken window go unrepaired in the winter, with temperatures regularly reaching near zero. The housekeeper, Linda Hoffman-Pugh, says she doesn't remember seeing a broken basement window.

Moreover, the Ramseys never used a key to get into the house; they entered through the garage door which opened automatically with a garage door opener. Thus, John's summer story of breaking the window to get into the house does not seem credible.

BlueCrab

 

[BBB167893]

Don't know who wrote this: could have been BlueCrab!

"But his story is totally unconvincing. He can't remember when this earlier incident happened, can't explain why he couldn't have gotten a key from a neighbor who had a copy, can't explain how he could have managed to place his hand and arm through a baseball sized hole in the glass to unlatch the window, and can't recall whether or not the window had been subsequently repaired. The housekeeper, Linda Hoffmann Pugh, is on record as stating she knew nothing about any broken window and has flatly contradicted Patsy's claim that both of them cleaned up the glass. All of the above is consistent with a plan gone wrong, an attempt to stage a kidnapping and dump the body before calling the police, a plan that was foiled when Patsy called them despite the warnings in the note. With his plan foiled, John might well have felt uneasy about the window, which he seems to have staged as an entry point for an intruder. Realizing the police, called in before he'd had a chance to complete his staging, might see through it and arrest him on the spot, John may well have decided to UNstage by closing the window, pocketing most of the glass, and claiming he'd broken it months earlier."

 

[Britt]

It's clear the "chair blocking the door" comment by John places him in the basement BEFORE Officer French and Fleet White...

Except that... since no one but John saw this alleged blocked door, he could've made it up, like he made up the ridiculous broken window story.

Just like the broken window, he obviously didn't want the train room connected to the crime or an intruder. John's message was: no intruder broke the window and no intruder used the room for access because the door was blocked. The unlatched window wasn't even cause for alarm.

Why was John "protecting" the train room? If he was trying to un-do Patsy's prior staging, why would he? Why not just keep all options open and all potential diversions in play?

 

[trixie]

trixie,

You apparently misunderstood my post.

Neither Rick French nor Fleet White had to move a chair and some boxes out of the way to get into the trainroom; only John Ramsey had to move the chair and boxes. Therefore, simple logic tells us that John Ramsey had to have been in the trainroom BEORE Rick French and Fleet White.

There probably aren't any written statements from Rick French or Fleet White about the chair and boxes because for them it was a non-event. Only if they had to move the chair and boxes would they have had reason to document it.

It reminds me of an official-looking historical marker I once saw along the road. Being a history nut I pulled over to read it. The marker said, "At this spot on March 15, 1834, nothing happened."

BlueCrab

No I don't think I misunderstood your post at all. In your post before you were talking about things that were not reported. That would mean there were reports and you gave the impression that you knew what was in them. And you still haven't answered my question. How do you know what Fleet White and Rick French said or didn't say about moving boxes, etc.? I understand that if it didn't happen there would be no mention of it, all I want to know is how do you know it didn't happen, for a fact? If you have access to material we've never seen you should let us know what that material is. If you don't and you are merely speculating, you should also let us know that and not state these things as fact. Thanks!

 

[rashomon]

less0305,
It's clear the "chair blocking the door" comment by John places him in the basement BEFORE Officer French and Fleet White searched the basement at 6:05 AM and 6:20 AM respectively, even though John denies he was in the basement and never searched for JonBenet in the basement prior to the cops getting there. And since John was likely in the basement very early that morning, then he certainly would have found JonBenet at that time. My guess is it was about 3 or 4 AM when John found JonBenet dead.
BlueCrab

If no chair was blocking the door to the trainroom when Officer French and Fleet White entered it, John Ramsey was either lying (but why should he lie about those boxes?) or it was like you said, BC: that he was in the basement even before French and White.
This is extremely damaging evidence meaning that John was implicated in the crime imo. Either as the perp or as a helper in the cover-up.

I believe John was in that basement way before 3 or 4 am. I think he had to remove the chair and boxes from the train room door as he carried the dead JonBenet down into the basement when helping Patsy to cover up what she had done to JB in a rage.

[edited to add]: BC, I just read Trixie's prior post where she asked about Officer French's and Fleet White's testimonies re the train room door - have they been asked (maybe later when John's testimony was compared to theirs) about anything blocking the door?

 

[Becba]

Remember, around the time he supposedly went and found the window unlatched he was waiting on a call from the kidnappers. They had said they would call between 8 and 10. Personally I would have sat right next to the phone long after the call was overdue on the chance they were still going to call.

 

[Britt]

This is extremely damaging evidence meaning that John was implicated in the crime imo. Either as the perp or as a helper in the cover-up.

Sure looks that way. So much for John getting a pass. His shirt fibers on JB don't help him either. Also, he is the one who hustled Burke out of the house early on, so IMO he was obviously participating in the cover-up by then and knew JB's body would be found soon... if he weren't in on it, why would he get Burke out of there?

 

[Toltec]

Trixie is right in asking the questions....where is it written that Fleet and Officer French spoke about the chair, boxes, and open window?

BlueCrab...there are no sources out there confirming this: at least none that I've seen.

I believe the window was never repaired after John broke it....and the black skid mark on the wall proves that John did come in through the window that previous summer. He stripped down to his undies...and was also wearing a pair of black dress shoes, hence the black skid mark.

I also believe John was down in the basement prior to calling the police. This is the smoking gun....

PR: It just happened so fast, and I, you know, read that letter and said "We have your daughter," your mind goes berserk. I mean I was - and then I went up there and my child is not in the bed. You know, I didn't, nothing against your questioning, but no, I didn't stand around and say I wonder if she is in here, I wonder if she is in there. I screamed for John...I mean my knees were like, you know, buckling. And oh, God, and he came down and I said, "She's gone, she's gone, there is a note, she's been kidnapped."

TH: Do you remember exactly what words you used, was it more than just John or -

PR: I remember my voice was just cracking. I mean it was like "JOHN," like that. I mean like, I can't even, you know, I hear my scream and I hear his scream when he came up from the basement, I mean it was just a horrible thing....he comes down those stairs there and...I am pacing.

 

[UKGuy]

PR: I remember my voice was just cracking. I mean it was like "JOHN," like that. I mean like, I can't even, you know, I hear my scream and I hear his scream when he came up from the basement, I mean it was just a horrible thing....he comes down those stairs there and...I am pacing.

This is like a jigsaw with pieces missing, so I am skeptical about assuming John is implicated on the basis of a bad memory event, as opposed to the usual amnesic explanation.

there are other examples even in the staging theories where stuff does not seem to fit, but I gloss over it, since the essence seems correct.

There is one in the above quote where Patsy has a confessional lapse:

I hear my scream and I hear his scream when he came up from the basement, I mean it was just a horrible thing

Something does not fit here, or is Patsy trying to implicate John in advance of an assumed court appearance?

Why should John be screaming, especially returning from the basement?

Scream down in the basement maybe, but why upstairs, I dont get it!


.

 

[IrishMist]

In reading the link supplied upthread, I ran across something that strikes me as odd:



Q. When you were looking at the ransom note, was there anything in the language of the ransom note that struck you as peculiar? A. The whole thing was peculiar. We were addressed as "Mr. and Mrs. Ramsey," and then they switched to "John" personally. They asked for twenty dollar bills and hundred dollar bills, as I recall. The amount was a very odd amount. The way the note was signed was very odd.The cruelty that they threatened was bizarre. It was a very sick mind that wrote that note.


Wasn't it the practice note that was addressed to both? The actual note was addressed to Mr. Ramsey only.

He remembered other phrases and whatnot... does this seem odd to anyone else?