Karen Lowe testimony (forensic investigator)

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Jury is still out.

JB reading from the report too quickly. HHBP says there will be no record and nothing to review.

HHBP - to JB - unless you were somewhere different than I was.... The witness was not saying "identical".

JA asks for proffer - says JB's citation is not scientific testimony - it's court case review.

HHBP - journals deal with strictly science

HHBP to JB - don't pull something out and start reading it.

JB questioning witnesses science and methodology

Witness returning to stand.
 
JA: has he indicated what portion he wants to question her about.

HHJP: no he hasn't

JB: no scientifically accepted...(reading from paper)

HHJP: mr Baez if you are going to read at a rapid rate you will not have a record sir, nothing to review.

JB: that micro scop...hair analysis is highly unreliable in places where there is a ...match...the studies alone are of limited probative value...the committe found...nuclear dna....can be used in tandum but must be added to one anothers value but no studies specifically to quantify...

HHJP: you need her to get to recognize it...but she is not trying to say that...she said that she is not saying this came from this person and this person alone. Let's see if she first recognizes it...

JA: it is clearly not scientific...I ask it be proferred...

HHJP: we are not going to talk about what court cases said...a journal...whether she recognizes that...

JB: I want to question her on those topics

HHJP: no one says you can't but you don't pull something out and start reading...you didn't even have the document

JB: ...the lack of science in her methodology...


Hey, do you think Jose can trick this witness into saying that what she does for a living "lacks methodology" and is "non science?"

Let's watch and see! :laughcry:
 
Jose asked a big long question and the witness said she is not aware of such. The judge asked if her lab did that and she said "I don't believe so, no."
 
Jose asks if the witness knows Micheal Malone, and does he still work for the FBI. She says she is familiar with Micheal Malone but does not know if he still works for the FBI. Jose is asking the witness if she is familiar that Micheal Malone testified in a case where the microscopic characteristics came into play where the person was later aquitted.

She does not believe that was improper, she has not seen the transcript...

Jose has found that they are not allowed to say that a hair definitely comes from a person. She has agreed with that. She said we can only say probably. They take a conservative stance.

Jose is bringing up another case where a person who does the same job as the witness, testified in a case and said they could definitely connected the hairs to a certain person and later it was found that you can't do that and so the person on trial got off.

HHJP: got VERY upset and told Jose we won't be having another case on trial here, that Jose can ask her about her methods and whatnot but to stay away from "trying" other cases other than this one.

Jose is back to questioning the witness again.
 
Cross exam of FBI analyst Karen Lowe by JB

Jury still out.

Proffer

HHBP giving witness National Academy of Science report.

She has seen the trace parts of it. Report commissioned by congress to identify the needs of forensic scientists in the community and to give guidance to forensic scientists on how to move forward. Not all members of Academy are scientists.

She is aware of criticisms of microscopic hair analysis - limitations of discipline as opposed to criticism. Identification can't be done without DNA analysis. She agrees. That's what the FBI lab does.

She doesn't believe this article says that the FBI lab made positive identifications based solely on microscopic hair analysis. (Looks like JB is scrolling through his iphone at the podium).

She is familiar with Michael Malone. She doesn't believe he is still an agent.

She is familiar with the Gates case from Washington D.C. A man was convicted based on Mr. Malone's testimony that the hairs found at a rape scene were microscopically indistinguishable from Gates. Case was overturned later by DNA.

Microscopically indistinguishable = exhibits the same characteristics.

HHBP not allowing any testimony given in any other case. Not trying another case in this courtroom. DON'T EVEN GO THERE.

Witness has recognized portion as being authoritative as a scientific treatise, not necessarily a policy.

FBI study by Hock and Adoli (?) page 161. This study looked at correlation of microscopic assessment of hairs and the mitochondrial DNA results of hairs.

Can't say a hair comes from one person to the exclusion of all others.

DNA hair results might differ from microscopic exam. 8 of the hairs were found to be different in this case.

JA asking about relevance - How is it relevant to get the witness to agree that other people agree with her. Results of Adobe study are not relevant to impeach an identification she did not make.

HHBP - if JB wants to bolster the witness's testimony, he will let him do that.

Adobe study can be brought out in redirect.

JA getting testy with JB.

HHBP - I know it's Saturday morning, but I think I've made my self abundantly clear about what should not be done and I firmly believe Mr. Baez heard me.

JB - I will not be discussing any prior cases Judge.

HHBP - You mention the Menendez case. Was there anything particular you wanted to use that for?

JB - No sir. Just for authoritativeness.

HHBP - Okay. All right, lets return the jury.
 
JB: no further questions (yay!)

JA: is making objections.

HHJP: if he wants to bolster her testimony he can. ....can be brought out on redirect.

JA: ...If I could finish? (Jose interrupts)

HHJP: I know it is Saturday morning but I think I have made myself abundantly clear and I think Mr. Baez heard me.

JB: I will not be trying other cases...

HHJP: you mentioned something about the menendez case, is there something in particular you want to use that for?

JB: no judge...it is just authoritative in this...

HHJP: okay. all right let's return the jury
 
Jose is talking about how they were discussing the history of micro scopic analysis and then the National Academy of Sciences...

So far the witness has agreed.

JB: you consider them as authoritive?

yes

JB: they were highly critical on the area of micro scopic analysis Were THEY NOT?

hair examinations are never the means of identification. the criticizism is point out with what we agree. hair is not a positive means of idientification. I don't disagree with what is in the report it is a limitation.

JB: nuclear dna and not mitichrondrial dna?

yes(longer but yes)

JB: nuclear is more...than mitichrondrial...

?

JB: ?

objection
sustained

JB: she has certain knowledge...

HHJP: I have sustained the objection

JB: are you aware of...strike that...as we were explaining this to the jury that is the reason why you can not testify and will not testify that one hair comes from one individual...

Jose just said "Pwobwem" for problem...he just did it again while I typed that...anywho...Jose is trying to get the witness to say they do not use hair banding as a way to identify a certain person...

(they do that with other methods I am sure and that will come in but Jose is jumping the gun hoping to get this confused)

and the witness has done nothing but agree with. And so all he can do is keep on asking her about the work she has done and saying things like: You don't know...

you dont know where the red fern grows? you don't know how my cooking goes...you don't know...
 
JB: you don't know how often it comes up

Jose is lost in this questioning...this is based on a handful of studies...

she says and training...Jose is trying to discredit her to make her seem like...

"and all you have done is these few studies..."
 
you have never rendered an opinion...
you have never rode a horse...
in fact you have never done a lot of things

is that not correct?

Did you not?
 
The witness is unshakable. She keeps reasserting that the death band cannot be replicated in other conditions, try as Jose might to imply otherwise.

Jose also wants to express that what she does, does not include using what she finds to 100% identify the person and she has agreed again, and again and again.

He is now badgering her saying that she would say something because it bolsters her opinion.
 
Jose is asking the witness about certain work she has done. Given her dates from her own work. Jose brings up another examination. You examined hair in that report.

I did.

JB: can you tell the jury the results?

no apparent hairs with decomp were found

JB: you were given more items?

correct

JB: you found more hairs?

correct

JA: have him specify where the hairs came from

JB: you found in the trash bags, hairs from that scenerio...can you tell the jury...

no apparent hairs with decomp were found.

Jose is going through ALL of the other evidence and getting the witness to say that there were no decom hairs found in the samples.

Jose works in the negative. What is that? How do you prove a negative?

I am sorry, but my mind will not allow itself to follow him. His thinking and what he is doing is a backward process. It is spin. :hypno: It is not truth. It is the bending of reality to your purposes, taking what is truth and trying to cloud it...

Jose says they are almost done.

All of this will be like a bad dream to the jury, later as they are riveted as the State gives the compelling evidence of that "one" hair and then the evidence of the duct tape is made perfectly clear...as I am sure LDB will do. :luv: :blowkiss:
 
Jose is stressing there was multiple hairs that she was given for her testing.

He has gone through all the other hairs and asked if she found apparent decomp to which she said, no we did not.

That was agreed to about a hour ago, that is still what Jose is asking about. No chit.
 
Jose is saying all this is just opinion, just their opinion, her opinion.

And the witness agrees.

Oh mother of all that is holy...

ERROR RATES.

:eek:
 
Cross exam of FBI analyst Karen Lowe by JB

National Academy of Science report was commissioned by Congress. Put together forensic sciences and individuals from the Court system to look at a better way to put forensics evidence in.

Where they highly critical in the area of microscopic hair analysis? Parts dealt with the limitations of the science - hair can't be a means of id without DNA, but they never are so the criticism is really pointing out a limitation of the science. She agrees. She says that in her reports and testimony. Must have an accompany mitochondrial DNA analysis. Nuclear DNA would be required to say a hair came from a specific individual.

Mitochondrial DNA is inherited maternally

Nuclear DNA is unique to an individual

She cannot testify that one hair comes from one individual. Report suggests doing accompanying DNA comparison.

This is the first time she has testified as an expert witness on hair banding.

She is an expert in the microscopic analysis and comparison of hair. She is not an expert in the physiology of hair.

Her expertise is based on 6 month training, some on the job training, 4 articles, 13 years of case analysis.

She does not know what causes port mortem banding. Studies show that it is seen as early as 8 hours after death. She doesn't know how long it takes to develop, as early as 8 hours. Not everyone who is deceased has post mortem banding. Doesn't know the frequency.

Post mortem root banding has not been replicated in conditions other than from someone who is deceased.

She requested the case agent to find more hairs.

She was informed that there might be hair from the vacuuming of the trunk. She requested them. "If we find more than one hair with decomp, the significance increases". She did not have doubts.

She did receive more hairs.

Starting with 8/1/08 report - she was given 12 items that were identified as coming from the vehicle. Some were hairs. Hairs had different characteristics. the only hair she compared to known samples was the hair showing decomp. 11 of the 12 items she received had some hairs. None showed characteristics of decomp.

8/6/08 report - the items submitted were pieces of trunk liner and other items from the car. None of the hairs showed decomp.

8/13/08 report - she received items of clothing from ICA.

10/6/08 report - she received items and hairs to inspect, vacuum sweepings from the car. Results showed none of these hairs showed decomp.

10/15/08 report - she received a single item. Results showed no hairs with decomp.

10/21/08 report - she received additional hair. Results showed no hairs with decomp.

11/6/08 report - she received additional hairs found in the trash bag and paper towels from the vehicle. Results showed no hairs with decomp.

6/25/09 report - regarding items found in the car, Q 319-337, results showed no hairs with decomp.

Even after she requested additional hairs after the original submission - and receiving multiple additional hairs, there were no additional hairs found associated with the car with signs of decomp. Only Q-12. Relative to this one hair she cannot absolutely say death is the reason for the characteristics.

JB conferring with DS.

No standards in identifying root banding. It's visual. It is one person's opinion. This conclusion in this case was verified by someone else in her unit.

On 7/31 she did a comparison to ICA sample.

Post mortem root banding should be in the root portion of the hair. In this hair, the banding is slightly above the root. Did not show Jury a photo of this hair.

JA objects.

Sidebar
 
Cross exam of FBI analyst Karen Lowe by JB

Photo of this hair never shown to Jury.

JA objects to JB referring to photo not in evidence. JA had no objection to JB entering it (haha - bet you don't)

In looking at the photo, she would rather look microscopically. It would be difficult to determine where the root starts from the photo.

It is difficult to determine characteristics of hair changes along the length from a photo if the hair is in the andogen phase.

Photos she brought are demonstrative.

Yearly proficiency test. She agreed she failed her first one in 2000.

Her depo was 4/10. After that - did your lab develop a paper on post mortem hair banding?

JA objects.

Sidebar.
 
JB: let me make this easier. :eek: Is it hard to compare a hair with just a photograph.

you would be limited

JB: so it is hard to see in a photograph and know where the root of a hair ends

it is less difficult with Q10 hairs you can tell more but in the andogyn phase it is more difficult to determine with a photograph.

JB: so knowing this is difficult you still brought photographs with you today?

yes

JB: they don't give you hairs to train with do they? they give photos

yes

JB: after you are done with training you get a profesancy test? and you failed it didn't you?

I did fail one.

JB: after your depo was taken your lab created a study on post mortum hair banding...

JA: objection

side bar

this is some big time desperate lawyering. I can't imagine that Jose is coming off any less desperate to the jury.
 
Jose tried bringing up that using a photograph to make a determination about what kind of hair you are seeing is not as good as looking under a microscope at a real hair. The witness agreed and then Jose moved in for the kill...

So, why did you bring pictures with you TODAY?

The witness calmly said so that she could illustrate what she was discussing.

:thumb:
 
None of her testimony has been based on the study by Steven Shaw. JA says they have a later witness who will testify to it.

HHBP sustained objection as beyond the scope of the direct examination

5 minute break
 
HHJP: what is the name of this study?

JA: the study is not finished yet, steven shaw will testify about that later

HHJP: witness, do you know this study?

yes

HHJP: has any of your testimony been based on that report?

no

HHJP: objection is sustained (in a big way, HHJP cited case law) While the jury is out take a recess for five.
 
Jose is now getting Ms. Lowe in on the plot against Casey. He is suggesting she knew things before the investigation was over, ways she did not do what was right to do. Ways she messed things up and followed science and instructions that were not what was right and all of her tests are wrong but yet she still gives her opinion.

He is saying she did not send this sample out, she is not the person who does this or that, he is asking if all the work she did and everything she is telling us isn't all wrong.

Jose has asked if she failed tests and if she is any good at any of this, and that the science we have about people being dead and how we determine that stuff is not valuable, that it means nothing.
 
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