Kyron Horman Discussion Thread 2020 - 2022 - #2

[Truth Prevails]

And the information about the time the picture was taken still hasn't been released.

But we do have a media link with the victim’s mother saying the picture was taken at 8:45 a.m. and that the time and location were confirmed with technology. In any other case on W/S that would be acceptable.

We have nothing at all saying the picture was taken at 8:15 a.m. Not a single supporting statement we can link.

 

[Truth Prevails]

The eyewitnesses were never mentioned before 2015 either. In the book, it sticks out like a sore thumb - chapter 24, where Desiree is informed about the landscaper by the MCSO. In the middle of the conversation, between them telling her about the MFH plot and the failed sting, it just gets shoved in there - oh, and by the way, there were also witnesses who saw them leave together, here are their names. And then it just isn't touched upon again until chapter 62, which - you guessed it - takes place in 2015.

But there is something interesting about the paragraph in ch 64:



[Pg 420] This was information that the MCSO had initially released, then rescinded, then told Desiree was true. “I didn’t understand why they wanted that detail kept tight,” she said later.

When did the MCSO initially release this information? In chapter 24 she specifies it was a few weeks before Jun 27th. Yet I can't find any trace of it. It seems to have gone completely unnoticed by this forum, which I personally find highly unlikely.

The following quote from Chapter 8 seems to provide the information believed to be missing.

Please see Page 76 of Chapter 8, “’ I’m Happy Now, Momma’ Afternoon June 6, 2010”.

The book opens a window to a private conversation Sheriff Staton had with Desiree and Tony where eyewitnesses were discussed for the first time.

So, eyewitnesses are mentioned for the first time in Chapter 8 (Afternoon June 6, 2010), not Chapter 24 (“It’s Just a Rumor” 24 Days Missing June 27).

Chapter 8 “I’m Happy Now, Momma” Afternoon June 6, 2010

[Pg 76] Privately, Sheriff Staton shocked Desiree and Tony with other news. He told them Kyron had reportedly been seen by a student and an adult as he left the south entrance of the school with his stepmother. Terri and Kyron weren’t holding hands, but they were walking out together with [the baby]. The sheriff later backtracked on the statement, leaving Desiree and Tony confused.

“Boy Missing—The Search For Kyron Horman” by Rebecca Morris​

Enter young Tanner and his media interviews given June 9, 2010, and June 14, 2010—supposedly to keep a face on Kyron’s case.

Note the date on the article below—June 9, 2010. A coincidence? I think not.

Snipped: [June 9, 2010] Gates said a source at the school saw him around 9 a.m. Friday, but declined to provide details. The school does not have video cameras.
Search for Kyron Horman: Scared Parents Keep Kids Out of School

Note that it was confirmed on June 18, 2010, that Terri was the last known person to see Kyron before he disappeared and the first MCSO flyer was simultaneously released. The flyer contained images of Terri, the F250, and Kyron. DeDe was not yet known to law enforcement.

Snipped: [Jun 18, 2010] “Terri is the last-known person to have seen him before he disappeared,” Multnomah County Sheriff’s Capt. Jason Gates said, contrary to previous reports of someone else who might have seen the boy afterward.
Investigators say Kyron’s family cooperating as search continues

Returning to the book and keeping the chapters in order, let's move on to Chapter 24:

Chapter 24 “It’s Just a Rumor” 24 Days Missing June 27

Desiree learned the information that to her was a bombshell. It was confirmed that there were eyewitnesses who saw Terri leave the school with Kyron. There would be no backtracking this time.

Chapter summary in my own words: In Chapter 24, (around page 199 which details June 27th in the search for Kyron) Desiree and Tony are unexpectedly called back to Portland for a meeting with deputy DAs and Kaine and his attorney at the Marriott Hotel. For the first time, Desiree and Tony learned Kaine had taken the baby and left Terri; they learned of murder-for-hire plots; they learned about the failed sting; they learned Terri saw a divorce lawyer before Kyron’s disappearance; they learned the red Mustang was spotted scouting ravines and terrain in the days before June 4, 2010. But what Desiree cared most about, the bombshell news for her was that Kyron was seen leaving the school with Terri. Law enforcement had eyewitnesses who would attest to that fact. The meeting lasted (4) four hours.

Staying with the book, the following quote is actually in Chapter 62—I’m sure referring to it as Chapter 64 was a typo. The bolding is as quoted in the original comment. The book is only now discussing events from 2015. The “he” referred to in the quote is Jason Mattera of True Crime Daily as is made clear in the book. Desiree is being recorded as she answers his questions. In 2015.

Chapter 62 “She Doesn’t Need to See That” 1920 Days Missing September 5—7, 2015

[Pg 420] When he asked her who she believed was responsible for Kyron’s disappearance, Desiree didn’t need to think twice. “Terri Horman, his stepmother.” As proof, she mentioned that several witnesses, including a couple of adults, had seen Terri leave the side entrance of Skyline Elementary with Kyron on June 4, 2010.
[Pg 420] This was information that the MCSO had initially released, then rescinded, then told Desiree was true. “I didn’t understand why they wanted that detail kept tight,” she said later.

“Boy Missing—The Search For Kyron Horman” by Rebecca Morris​

In the chapter, author, Rebecca Morris, has given an accurate summation of the interview which we can hear for ourselves at the link below—if we have any doubts or feel the need to confirm.

Basically, the chapter is about Desiree’s interview. New information was provided to “we, the viewing public”, in 2015, but the information was not new to Desiree. She chose to release it at that time. She didn't have to.

In summary, as the book details, Desiree first heard about eyewitnesses on June 7, 2010; then the information was rescinded so law enforcement could sort TP’s statements; then on June 27, 2010, deputy DAs confirmed for Desiree and Tony that there were indeed witnesses who had seen Terri leave the school with Kyron. In 2015, Desiree decided to share a few of those details with us.

I don’t believe Desiree has revealed everything she knows about her son’s case to anyone, except maybe her husband, Tony. There is more—more than has been released to the media and more than has been written in the book. I don’t know why we are so surprised when she decides it’s time to reveal a bit more. I guess it’s because the truth is inconvenient sometimes.

This is a well-written, well-researched, easy-to-follow book, folks. My opinion only.

The search for missing Oregon boy Kyron Horman

There's so much of that in the book. We see the information given to the media, and then some unidentified detective talks to Desiree alone and says "actually it was like this", always confirming her priors.

BBM The above appears to be selectively worded. Are we talking about Desiree’s prior statements or something unfounded? It is not clear but is suggestive.

We do know Terri has priors.

As always, in my opinion.

 

[Vern]

But we do have a media link with the victim’s mother saying the picture was taken at 8:45 a.m. and that the time and location were confirmed with technology. In any other case on W/S that would be acceptable.

We have nothing at all saying the picture was taken at 8:15 a.m. Not a single supporting statement we can link.

<modsnip>

The issue that I have with Desiree's statements is that some of her points regarding evidence, timings etc have changed over time. The other issue that I have is that Kaine <modsnip>has stated that Kiara was there yet people still want to claim that the baby wasn't there as Terri hunckered down for a serreptitious phone call outside of the school for example.

So, we get to guage what we take based upon how things go (or change as it were). That's acceptable.

For me, I give less weight to matters when the info has changed and morphed over the course of time and stay with actual facts and actual evidence release by actual authorities. That is sadly lacking from them in this case so we are stuck with suppositions, implications, changing facts and times.

So we end up with 'what people believe' rather than what we/people know. There is a huge difference between the two.

 

[FergusMcDuck]

The science fair was that morning, though. That’s why the first roll call wasn’t taken until 10:00 a.m. The statements from TP and KH support the teacher being in her classroom at that time.

The leaders of the parent-led groups were in Kyron’s classroom gathering the kids to be in their respective groups between 8:45 a.m. and 9:00 a.m. The group tours started at 9:00 a.m. I believe they ended at about 9:45 a.m., giving everyone time to return to their homerooms and settle for roll call.

Yes, all of this is correct, to my knowledge.

Terri left Kyron’s classroom somewhere between 8:45 a.m. and 8:50 a.m., leading Kyron and the baby. She wouldn’t have had to wait for the official start of the tour like the others. And even a 5-minute head start would mean fewer people in the hallway to see the three leaving.

I don’t think the homeroom teacher had to be in her classroom between 8:45 a.m. and 9:00 a.m. as on a normal day. She may have been in her classroom earlier but left at the sound of the bell to go to an assigned station in the gym.

It is my understanding that the gym was for the older students, the actual IB expo. That's why TK (grade 8) was set up there, while Kyron's class was in its classroom. So the teachers in the gym would be the teachers for the older grades, while the teachers for the younger grades would be in their classrooms as there were still exhibits there to be looked at by the touring groups. It's also odd that the teacher would be in her classroom for the groups returning, but not for the forming and sending off.

So, it’s possible the teacher was in the gym which is by the door where Terri exited around 8:55 a.m. We know from TK’s media interview there were science projects in the gym. The teacher may have been scheduled to supervise the projects in the gym as the parent-led groups went through on their tour.

Extremely unlikely. The teacher would be in her classroom with the projects of her class, not in the gym.

But we do have a media link with the victim’s mother saying the picture was taken at 8:45 a.m. and that the time and location were confirmed with technology. In any other case on W/S that would be acceptable.

We have nothing at all saying the picture was taken at 8:15 a.m. Not a single supporting statement we can link.

No, but a clear reading of the statements given puts the taking of the picture during the first part of the visit. To put the picture-taking at 8:45 you have to postulate a convoluted and contrived scenario with multiple visits to the classrooms, which none of the witnesses nor the LE have ever attested to.

Kyron's mother is sadly not reliable. She is not law enforcement and she has changed stories publicly, as this thread has demonstrated.

The following quote from Chapter 8 seems to provide the information believed to be missing.

Please see Page 76 of Chapter 8, “’ I’m Happy Now, Momma’ Afternoon June 6, 2010”.

The book opens a window to a private conversation Sheriff Staton had with Desiree and Tony where eyewitnesses were discussed for the first time.

So, eyewitnesses are mentioned for the first time in Chapter 8 (Afternoon June 6, 2010), not Chapter 24 (“It’s Just a Rumor” 24 Days Missing June 27).

Chapter 8 “I’m Happy Now, Momma” Afternoon June 6, 2010

[Pg 76] Privately, Sheriff Staton shocked Desiree and Tony with other news. He told them Kyron had reportedly been seen by a student and an adult as he left the south entrance of the school with his stepmother. Terri and Kyron weren’t holding hands, but they were walking out together with [the baby]. The sheriff later backtracked on the statement, leaving Desiree and Tony confused.

“Boy Missing—The Search For Kyron Horman” by Rebecca Morris​

Enter young Tanner and his media interviews given June 9, 2010, and June 14, 2010—supposedly to keep a face on Kyron’s case.

Note the date on the article below—June 9, 2010. A coincidence? I think not.

Snipped: [June 9, 2010] Gates said a source at the school saw him around 9 a.m. Friday, but declined to provide details. The school does not have video cameras.
Search for Kyron Horman: Scared Parents Keep Kids Out of School

Funny thing is that this more closely matches Terri's claim on Dr Phil that Kyron was seen after she left (and 9:00 is after she left) by the school secretary (an adult) and a student. Terri has just been added to it in the Morris narrative, despite needing to have left before then to make it to FM at 9:00. This appears to be based on Staton's statement to the public on June 6th:

- The last time he was seen was here at the school, and that was on Friday about late, a late hour in the morning was the last time he was actually seen here at the school. Since that time we've developed no other additional information that's indicated that he was here beyond that point after our interviews with the children.

- He was seen not, he was seen near his classroom, and the last point was down at the south entrance door of the school.

- Actually that statement came from one of the children that was here earlier this morning that was interviewed.

The school secretary was one of the three school employees Houze deposed in 2013. If the supposed witness was TP (and we have no evidence it was), this would already be known to LE before the 9th.

What it doesn't do is match the later statement, which took place in the parking lot according to Desiree. On the 11th Staton issued this statement:

"The last time this child was seen was inside the school and was never seen leaving the school," Staton told CNN.

Basically, the sightings were inside the school.

Basically, the chapter is about Desiree’s interview. New information was provided to “we, the viewing public”, in 2015, but the information was not new to Desiree. She chose to release it at that time. She didn't have to.

In summary, as the book details, Desiree first heard about eyewitnesses on June 7, 2010; then the information was rescinded so law enforcement could sort TP’s statements; then on June 27, 2010, deputy DAs confirmed for Desiree and Tony that there were indeed witnesses who had seen Terri leave the school with Kyron. In 2015, Desiree decided to share a few of those details with us.

And if witnesses had seen them leave together, Terri would have been arrested in 2010.

I don’t believe Desiree has revealed everything she knows about her son’s case to anyone, except maybe her husband, Tony. There is more—more than has been released to the media and more than has been written in the book. I don’t know why we are so surprised when she decides it’s time to reveal a bit more. I guess it’s because the truth is inconvenient sometimes.

I think it's stranger when she changes the story between the tellings. In the book, Kyron wasn't supposed to be in the talent show, currently not only was he supposed to be in it, it was part of the excuse for taking him out of school ("he'll be back by 11 for the talent show").

This is a well-written, well-researched, easy-to-follow book, folks. My opinion only.

I thought it was pretty bad, myself. Several rambling detours about completely unrelated cases, and it's not always clear where the information is derived from. The book would have benefitted from footnotes, but this is an issue I have with most true crime books, sadly. Sloppy, rambling, focusing on narrative rather than facts and evidence.

BBM The above appears to be selectively worded. Are we talking about Desiree’s prior statements or something unfounded? It is not clear but is suggestive.

We do know Terri has priors.

As always, in my opinion.

Confirming your priors as in confirmation bias. By her own admission (in the book) Desiree suspected Terri before she had even arrived in Portland. She mistakenly thought Terri couldn't see Kyron from where she was standing when she last saw him, and her reaction wasn't to think that she could be mistaken or understanding it wrong, but that Terri was lying. There is so much of this in the book, Terri does something and it's suspicious, Terri says something and it's suspicious. But a clear, unbiased look at it says otherwise.

 

[Knitty]

<modsnip - quoted post was snipped>

Desiree and Kaine are considered victims here, which is covered in the Etiquette & Information link below this post and copied here:

"VICTIM FRIENDLY

Websleuths is a victim friendly forum. Attacking or bashing a victim is not allowed. Discussing known victim behavior, good or bad is fine, but do so in a civil and constructive way, and only when such behavior is known to be relevant to the case.

The "victim friendly" rule extends to family members of victims and suspects. Sleuthing family members, friends, or others who have not been officially designated by law enforcement or in mainstream media as a Person of Interest or suspect is not allowed (i.e. Sleuthing out this type of information, and publicly posting their social media, personal information, including names, addresses, and background data -- even if it is public is not allowed and such posts will be removed, along with any posts that encourage such sleuthing).

This does not mean, however, that statements made by family members and other third parties cannot come into discussion as the facts of the case are reported in the media. Members may reasonably discuss what is said in MSM by them or about them, but do not make random accusations, insinuations, suggest their involvement, trash, bash or attack them, or speculate negatively about them."

Knitty,
Moderator

 

[Sillybilly]

ADMIN NOTE:

This case has been around a long time so it can be tough to locate specific information over the years.

Could someone please let us know when/where/if Tricia or other Admin, or certain verified members said it's okay for members to refer to them by their real names rather than their Websleuths user ID.

Thanks !!

 

[Truth Prevails]

Is this where GZ talked to Terri as well, ca 8:30, about the T-shirts (as detailed here)?

I would put the t-shirt conversation nearer the time Terri took the pictures—around 8:45 a.m. I think the moms were talking a little bit amongst themselves as they were getting various kids to stand in front of their science projects to have their photos taken.

I don’t think the t-shirt conversation is important regarding the timeline, but I suppose it’s important to Terri. She was already working on her alibi at that point. Pretending she was preparing for a tomorrow that included Kyron. JMO

 

[Truth Prevails]

But now there's only ca 15 minutes to do the whole tour, talk to McBeth, go out to the truck, make a call, return, go to the classroom. And in the classroom she needs to take multiple pictures and talk to the teacher. Remember, she pretty much has to leave no more than a minute or so after 8:45. The police have her (per their posters) at Fred Meyer 8-10 (depending on traffic) minutes away at 9:00, and she also needs to walk to her truck (a minute's walk per Google maps), strap in her kid, then do the opposite at Fred Meyer.
There are a lot of things that need to happen in little more than 15 minutes.

I believe she never intended to do the tour. It was the excuse she used to prevent Kyron from joining his group and keep him with her. IMO

Snipped: Parent-led groups of about four students walked among the classrooms, said [GZ], president of the Skyline PTA.
"You were supposed to stay with your group," Zimmerman said. "I don't know what group he was in."
However, the sheriff's office news release says school staff did not see Kyron after 8:45 a.m. and that he did not make it to his classroom.
Kyron Horman disappearance: Skyline school parents and students will be interviewed Sunday

[Pg 40] Later, a parent involved with the PTA explained that there were parent-led groups of students walking between the classrooms to see the science exhibits. She led the group made up of Kyron’s classmates. He was not in it.

"Boy Missing · The Search for Kyron Horman" by Rebecca Morris​

 

[Truth Prevails]

Note the phrasing. "In front of his exhibit".

Is it not possible for someone to be in front of their exhibit, simply looking at it? Wanting to make sure it’s perfect, everything is in place and exactly the way they intended it to be. Kyron, at 7 years of age, was meticulous in all that he did.

Terri left it in the corner the day before and had not even seen it displayed on Kyron’s desk until that morning. Maybe she thought she should take a quick look, at least.

 

[FergusMcDuck]

I would put the t-shirt conversation nearer the time Terri took the pictures—around 8:45 a.m. I think the moms were talking a little bit amongst themselves as they were getting various kids to stand in front of their science projects to have their photos taken.

I don’t think the t-shirt conversation is important regarding the timeline, but I suppose it’s important to Terri. She was already working on her alibi at that point. Pretending she was preparing for a tomorrow that included Kyron. JMO

When I mentioned confirmation bias earlier, this is the kind of thing I meant. That there were t-shirts being talked about that morning is confirmed by Desiree herself in the book (ch 2):

At 1:21 p.m. Terri posted the photo she had taken of Kyron that morning at his school science fair. Kyron, with his blond crew cut, blue eyes, and glasses and wearing his black CSI T-shirt, stood proudly by the exhibit he had worked so hard on. Then Terri sent Desiree an email letting her know she had posted a picture of Kyron. Soon after, she sent more emails to Desiree, telling her about a school T-shirt order and confirming summer plans.

So this is a perfectly normal conversation to have, but because Terri's guilt is already assumed, this is painted as "alibi building". As I said earlier, the book is full of examples much like this.

I believe she never intended to do the tour. It was the excuse she used to prevent Kyron from joining his group and keep him with her. IMO

But even Desiree claims she went on the tour with Kyron. She says Terri "made Ms Porter" take Kyron out of the group and out of the classroom at 8:15, despite the groups not forming for another 30 minutes. The she says Terri was with Kyron between 8:15 and 8:45 despite claiming in the book that Terri was at one point outside the school, sitting in her truck and making a call. The book also says they were in McBeth's classroom, so they obviously went on the tour.

Why would GZ believe Terri was taking Kyron on a tour if the bell had rung and the groups were about to form? Here's another bit from the Dateline source:

[GZ] saw nothing amiss that morning as Kyron and Terri Horman wrapped up their tour of the science fair.

Is it not possible for someone to be in front of their exhibit, simply looking at it? Wanting to make sure it’s perfect, everything is in place and exactly the way they intended it to be. Kyron, at 7 years of age, was meticulous in all that he did.

Terri left it in the corner the day before and had not even seen it displayed on Kyron’s desk until that morning. Maybe she thought she should take a quick look, at least.

Like you said, they're professionally written. I don't think it's a coincidence that they keep using the same words to describe GZ's statements - and that a clear reading of the statements is that GZ saw Kyron and Terri on one occasion, inside the classroom, somewhere between 8:15 and 8:30. The multiple visits are not supported by anything but a need to make Desiree's latter day claim about the photo being taken at 8:45 fit.

"Parent [GZ] said she last saw Kyron in the morning, when he posed in a classroom in front of his red-eyed tree frog science project. She said her daughter is one of Kyron s best friends and she knew him well." - KGW

"At 8:15 a.m., Skyline PTA President Gina Zimmerman arrived at the school and saw Kyron with his stepmother in front of his exhibit." - OregonLive

"[GZ] I remember seeing Kyron in front of his project, and Terri took a picture of him; took one with him in front of it, and then one with just the project alone." - Dateline

"[GZ] saw Terri take a photograph of Kyron standing in front of his tree frog exhibit." - Boy Missing, ch 4

 

[Truth Prevails]

No, but a clear reading of the statements given puts the taking of the picture during the first part of the visit. To put the picture-taking at 8:45 you have to postulate a convoluted and contrived scenario with multiple visits to the classrooms, which none of the witnesses nor the LE have ever attested to.

Kyron's mother is sadly not reliable. She is not law enforcement and she has changed stories publicly, as this thread has demonstrated.

I think the convoluted and contrived scenario is the one that places Terri at the top of the stairs at 8:45 a.m. as she has a vision of the back of Kyron’s head almost at the door to his classroom, which is about 100’ away (or more). No one is postulating. The vision is all Terri's. Please see the link.

The hallway would not have been empty of people or objects. Kyron was 3’8” inches tall.

Desiree is reliable. She will never stop looking for her son. We can bank on that. Justice for Kyron!

Snipped: [Jan 20. 2016] "I saw him walking down to his room," she said. "My vision of him is the back of his head almost at the door. That's what I see when I sit here and think about him - that's my last thought."
Terri Horman: I would keep Kyron home that day

 

[Truth Prevails]

Funny thing is that this more closely matches Terri's claim on Dr Phil that Kyron was seen after she left (and 9:00 is after she left) by the school secretary (an adult) and a student. Terri has just been added to it in the Morris narrative, despite needing to have left before then to make it to FM at 9:00. This appears to be based on Staton's statement to the public on June 6th:


The school secretary was one of the three school employees Houze deposed in 2013. If the supposed witness was TP (and we have no evidence it was), this would already be known to LE before the 9th.


What it doesn't do is match the later statement, which took place in the parking lot according to Desiree. On the 11th Staton issued this statement:



Basically, the sightings were inside the school.

The book citation is clear that as early as June 6, 2010, eyewitnesses placed Kyron outside the school in the parking lot with Terri. This was information not released to the general public at the time. Please note the word “privately”.

[Pg 76] Privately, Sheriff Staton shocked Desiree and Tony with other news. He told them Kyron had reportedly been seen by a student and an adult as he left the south entrance of the school with his stepmother. Terri and Kyron weren’t holding hands, but they were walking out together with [the baby]. The sheriff later backtracked on the statement, leaving Desiree and Tony confused.

“Boy Missing—The Search For Kyron Horman” by Rebecca Morris​

Publicly, on June 9th, we had the first of young TP’s media appearances. The second was on June 14th. The child would certainly have made statements to law enforcement before his media appearances.

Does anyone believe law enforcement does not withhold information while they are actively investigating a case and for years afterward? I don’t want to disillusion anyone, but they do—all the time. Thus Sherrif Staton’s June 11th statement. He was probably concerned about lynch mobs forming. This was a high-profile case with people reacting strongly to Kyron’s disappearance. Everyone wanted answers.

Released on the 18th of June, in unison with the first MCSO flyer picturing Terri and the F250:
Snipped: [Jun 18, 2010] “Terri is the last-known person to have seen him before he disappeared,” Multnomah County Sheriff’s Capt. Jason Gates said, contrary to previous reports of someone else who might have seen the boy afterward.
Investigators say Kyron’s family cooperating as search continues

Terri only needed 10 minutes to get to the Fred Meyer, Hillsboro. Leaving the school grounds in the F250 at approximately 8:55 a.m. would have her arriving around 9:05 a.m. In her June 5th email, she said she had a receipt showing she was checking out at 9:12 a.m. That would give her about 7 minutes to go inside, discover the Motrin was out of stock, and buy a few small items to obtain a receipt.

The book confirms the 9:12 a.m. check-out time with CCTV footage showing her leaving the store. An interesting side note is that the book does not confirm the baby was inside the store with Terri. It says the baby was seen in an outdoor surveillance video in her car seat in back of Terri who was driving the F250. Due to the camera angle, no one could see Kyron’s booster seat. No one could confirm Kyron was inside the F250. Yet, Kyron had been seen leaving the school with Terri 20 to 25 minutes prior.

Two important questions arise: 1) Where was the baby when Terri was in the store; and more importantly 2) where was Kyron?

Approximately 7 to 10 minutes would be the time the baby was left alone in the F250 if she was not in the store with her mother and if Kyron was not in the F250 with her.

[Pg 57] At 9:12 a.m. Terri was caught on a surveillance video leaving the Fred Meyer store on Northwest Imbrie Drive in Hillsboro. …
The outdoor surveillance cameras showed Terri driving and [baby “K”] in the child seat in the back. Due to the angle of the camera, it was impossible to tell if anyone else was in the vehicle and if Kyron's booster seat was empty.

"Boy Missing · The Search for Kyron Horman" by Rebecca Morris​

 

[Truth Prevails]

And if witnesses had seen them leave together, Terri would have been arrested in 2010.

What would they have charged her with? She was Kyron’s stepmother and had the right to take him from school.

Certainly some combination of kidnapping charges would have stuck because she wouldn’t tell anyone where Kyron was. Yes, they had probable cause for an arrest, and proof beyond a reasonable doubt for a conviction on kidnapping. She would have served a few years in prison.

However, the goal was to find Kyron. Arresting her on kidnapping charges would not have made her reveal where he was. Or the name of anyone who had helped her. I think by leaving her free and observing her, keeping pressure on her, law enforcement believed they had a better chance of finding Kyron. Unfortunately, it didn’t work and the statute of limitations on kidnapping ran out.

 

[Truth Prevails]

When I mentioned confirmation bias earlier, this is the kind of thing I meant. That there were t-shirts being talked about that morning is confirmed by Desiree herself in the book (ch 2):



So this is a perfectly normal conversation to have, but because Terri's guilt is already assumed, this is painted as "alibi building". As I said earlier, the book is full of examples much like this.

Confirmation bias is a two-way street.

What we are looking at is a conversation exchanged between two people, one of whom was named by law enforcement as being the last known person to see Kyron Richard Horman, who has now been missing for almost 14 years. This conversation occurred at an unconfirmed time on the morning of June 4, 2010, the same day the 7-year-old boy seemingly vanished.

Under those circumstances, most people would draw conclusions. One way or the other.

I doubt we will hear the details of this conversation in a courtroom. It is not evidence of anything.

The email Terri sent to Desiree about the t-shirts may come in, but probably as part of a group of emails Desiree received that afternoon from Terri, probably to establish her whereabouts.

In my opinion.

 

[Truth Prevails]

The she says Terri was with Kyron between 8:15 and 8:45 despite claiming in the book that Terri was at one point outside the school, sitting in her truck and making a call.

It is believed Terri went outside for an unknown period between 8:15 a.m. and 8:45 a.m. (See quote below). She may have directed Kyron to wait for her in the gym and that’s when Kyron went up the center stairs. (main entrance).

I speculate Terri may have been outside for about 10 minutes, possibly around 8:25 a.m. to 8:35 a.m. Where was Kyron’s baby sister?

[Pg 263] Underhill said at least one witness told police they saw a second adult, on a phone, in the truck while Terri was in the school. Another had seen the truck moved. Later, detectives told Desiree that despite tips, they didn't think there was anyone else in Terri's truck, at least when it was parked at the school. They thought the person sighted on the phone in the truck was Terri.

"Boy Missing · The Search for Kyron Horman" by Rebecca Morris​

The book also says they were in McBeth's classroom, so they obviously went on the tour.

Kyron and Terri went downstairs to return library books and say hello to Kyron’s kindergarten/1st grade teacher. (Mr. McBeth). This happened during the parents’ tour hour. This was most likely a personal excursion set up by Terri to make sure Kyron was seen at the school by as many people as possible.

It may also have provided the window of opportunity Terri needed to slip outside the school for a few minutes. Possibly she left the baby in Kyron’s classroom on the 2nd floor with someone watching her, explaining she and Kyron had to go downstairs to return library books and say ‘hi’ to Mr. McBeth.

 

[Truth Prevails]

But even Desiree claims she went on the tour with Kyron. She says Terri "made Ms Porter" take Kyron out of the group and out of the classroom at 8:15, despite the groups not forming for another 30 minutes.

Terri didn’t participate in the students’ tour. She left at 8:45 a.m. As is often said, her departure time has never been disputed.

Respectfully, may I suggest a clear reading of Desiree’s statements.

As always, just my opinion.

Why would GZ believe Terri was taking Kyron on a tour if the bell had rung and the groups were about to form?

How would we know what GZ believed or why she believed it? Her statements are determined by what she saw.

My opinion only.

 

[Truth Prevails]

Here’s another bit from the Dateline source:

Please see the snipped quote below. Strictly speaking, the parents’ tour was from 8:00 a.m until 9:00 a.m. and the students’ tour was from 9:00 a.m. until 10:00 a.m. (The 15 minutes between 8:45 a.m. and 9:00 a.m. was for the parents to leave the school and the children to return to their homerooms so they could be divided into their parent-led groups and be ready to start their tour at 9:00 a.m. The sound of the bell at 8:45 a.m. signaled the start of this change).

I suppose the statement by the host of the Dateline special could be considered technically correct as the parents’ tour was scheduled for 8:00 a.m. until 9:00 a.m. and Terri, woefully considered a parent, was leaving the parents’ tour around 8:45 a.m. Kyron was seen in the parking lot, leaving with Terri and his baby sister, around 8:50 a.m. Kyron Richard Horman was never seen again.

The various tours and times revolving around the science fair are confusing and that confusion overshadowed Kyron’s case for years, and maybe still does. It was also a big part of why Terri chose that particular morning to do what she did.

[Snipped] 8 a.m. Skyline Elementary, opens early so students and parents can tour the science fair. A billboard outside reads: "June 4, I.B. Inquiry Expo, 8-10, Talent show, 1-2:45." Kyron was to take part in both the expo/science fair and the talent show. Terri Moulton Horman arrives shortly afterward with her stepson, Kyron.
Kyron Horman: Timeline of events since boy's disappearance

 

[FergusMcDuck]

I think the convoluted and contrived scenario is the one that places Terri at the top of the stairs at 8:45 a.m. as she has a vision of the back of Kyron’s head almost at the door to his classroom, which is about 100’ away (or more). No one is postulating. The vision is all Terri's. Please see the link.

The hallway would not have been empty of people or objects. Kyron was 3’8” inches tall.

You think it's contrived that Terri, being roughly in Kaine's position in this clip, can see Kyron at the camera's position? A straight hallway, just looking down it, at such a short distance? I'd be astonished if she claimed she couldn't see him from that position.

Objects? Why would there be objects in the hallway, that is the main thoroughfare for people walking between the classrooms and the gym? And why is it unbelievable that the hallway wouldn't be stuffed wall-to-wall with people? None of this is unrealistic in the slightest.

This isn't convoluted or contrived.

Desiree is reliable. She will never stop looking for her son. We can bank on that. Justice for Kyron!

It was Desiree's contention that someone in Kaine's position couldn't see to where the camera is, because of "a wall that partially blocks the view" (Boy Missing ch 5)

Look at the clip, where is the wall?

Another curiosity of the book is that Desiree places the stairs at the gym by the "far east end of the hallway" (Boy Missing ch 5), and indeed that is how they were marked on the map used by Dr Phil for the appearance of the bioparents, and then Terri. Kyron's classroom was also misplaced on that map. Neither Kain nor Desiree remarked on the error, but Terri did. The "stairwell" on the map is the exit to the buses, not the stairwell by the gym.

The book citation is clear that as early as June 6, 2010, eyewitnesses placed Kyron outside the school in the parking lot with Terri. This was information not released to the general public at the time. Please note the word “privately”.

[Pg 76] Privately, Sheriff Staton shocked Desiree and Tony with other news. He told them Kyron had reportedly been seen by a student and an adult as he left the south entrance of the school with his stepmother. Terri and Kyron weren’t holding hands, but they were walking out together with [the baby]. The sheriff later backtracked on the statement, leaving Desiree and Tony confused.

“Boy Missing—The Search For Kyron Horman” by Rebecca Morris​

Actually, that isn't "placing Kyron in the parking lot". Even if this citation is accurate to what Staton actually said (and I don't believe it is) it doesn't say where the witnesses were or that they saw them beyond the south entrance. And then there is Staton's statement to the media on June 11th:

"The last time this child was seen was inside the school and was never seen leaving the school," Staton told CNN.

As I said, the quote from the book above appears to be built on Staton's message to the media on the same day (June 6th):

He was seen not, he was seen near his classroom, and the last point was down at the south entrance door of the school.

It does not appear to be compatible to Desiree's new statements from 2015.

Publicly, on June 9th, we had the first of young TP’s media appearances. The second was on June 14th. The child would certainly have made statements to law enforcement before his media appearances.

But those statements wouldn't change anything, would they? Staton has already, on June 6th, gone public with Kyron having been seen by a student at 9:00.

Does anyone believe law enforcement does not withhold information while they are actively investigating a case and for years afterward? I don’t want to disillusion anyone, but they do—all the time. Thus Sherrif Staton’s June 11th statement. He was probably concerned about lynch mobs forming. This was a high-profile case with people reacting strongly to Kyron’s disappearance. Everyone wanted answers.

Why would lynch mobs form when at no point until then (and indeed at no point until Desiree in 2015) had anyone, much less law enforcement made the claim that Kyron had been seen leaving the school with Terri? Or indeed leaving the school at all?

Released on the 18th of June, in unison with the first MCSO flyer picturing Terri and the F250:
Snipped: [Jun 18, 2010] “Terri is the last-known person to have seen him before he disappeared,” Multnomah County Sheriff’s Capt. Jason Gates said, contrary to previous reports of someone else who might have seen the boy afterward.
Investigators say Kyron’s family cooperating as search continues

And I agree, by the way. Law enforcement withholds info and misleads the public if they believe it is beneficial to the investigation. Which is where I believe the June 18th backtracking comes from. This is the same day the questionnaire with Terri and the white truck was released, which apparently caused much confusion among witnesses. Basically, from everything we can see, this is where it stops being an evidence-centric investigation and becomes a suspect-centric investigation. Going from trying to prove what happened to trying to prove Terri did it.

Terri only needed 10 minutes to get to the Fred Meyer, Hillsboro. Leaving the school grounds in the F250 at approximately 8:55 a.m. would have her arriving around 9:05 a.m. In her June 5th email, she said she had a receipt showing she was checking out at 9:12 a.m. That would give her about 7 minutes to go inside, discover the Motrin was out of stock, and buy a few small items to obtain a receipt.

The book confirms the 9:12 a.m. check-out time with CCTV footage showing her leaving the store. An interesting side note is that the book does not confirm the baby was inside the store with Terri. It says the baby was seen in an outdoor surveillance video in her car seat in back of Terri who was driving the F250. Due to the camera angle, no one could see Kyron’s booster seat. No one could confirm Kyron was inside the F250. Yet, Kyron had been seen leaving the school with Terri 20 to 25 minutes prior.

Two important questions arise: 1) Where was the baby when Terri was in the store; and more importantly 2) where was Kyron?

The answers are obvious, I think. 1) With Terri and 2) not in the truck. After all, she took the baby with her into the second Fred Meyer, why not the first? She parked in the middle of a large, public lot, where other customers would drive past. Leaving children alone and visible to everyone would definitely attract attention. But again, the baby causes problems for the actions Terri is supposed to have taken that morning, so she has to be removed from the equation somehow.

Approximately 7 to 10 minutes would be the time the baby was left alone in the F250 if she was not in the store with her mother and if Kyron was not in the F250 with her.

It was a major parking lot in front of a major store, and the truck was right in the middle of it. Forget CCTV, how could Terri plan for no one to notice the children inside?

What would they have charged her with? She was Kyron’s stepmother and had the right to take him from school.

Certainly some combination of kidnapping charges would have stuck because she wouldn’t tell anyone where Kyron was. Yes, they had probable cause for an arrest, and proof beyond a reasonable doubt for a conviction on kidnapping. She would have served a few years in prison.

If they had a clear charge of kidnapping beyond a reasonable doubt, they would take it. Nothing about that would prevent them from adding other charges later on. That's not even mentioning a trial and what information could emerge during it.

However, the goal was to find Kyron. Arresting her on kidnapping charges would not have made her reveal where he was. Or the name of anyone who had helped her. I think by leaving her free and observing her, keeping pressure on her, law enforcement believed they had a better chance of finding Kyron. Unfortunately, it didn’t work and the statute of limitations on kidnapping ran out.

Statute of limitations for crimes against minors is what, six years? Yet the investigation was dead in the water by 2011. By 2013 they were trying to persuade Dede to conduct a sting operation. By 2016 Terri was out of state. At no point did the MCSO realize they weren't getting results with their "pressure tactics"? And what is the ultimate pressure tactic if not criminal charges?

It just does not seem realistic or even precedented to me that LE would choose not to charge a person for the very serious charge of kidnapping if they had proof beyond a reasonable doubt. I've certainly never heard of any similar case.

 

[Truth Prevails]

Like you said, they're professionally written. I don't think it's a coincidence that they keep using the same words to describe GZ's statements - and that a clear reading of the statements is that GZ saw Kyron and Terri on one occasion, inside the classroom, somewhere between 8:15 and 8:30. The multiple visits are not supported by anything but a need to make Desiree's latter day claim about the photo being taken at 8:45 fit.

"Parent [GZ] said she last saw Kyron in the morning, when he posed in a classroom in front of his red-eyed tree frog science project. She said her daughter is one of Kyron s best friends and she knew him well." - KGW

"At 8:15 a.m., Skyline PTA President Gina Zimmerman arrived at the school and saw Kyron with his stepmother in front of his exhibit." - OregonLive

"[GZ] I remember seeing Kyron in front of his project, and Terri took a picture of him; took one with him in front of it, and then one with just the project alone." - Dateline

"[GZ] saw Terri take a photograph of Kyron standing in front of his tree frog exhibit." - Boy Missing, ch 4

In not one of the many quotes provided does it say the photo was taken at 8:15 a.m.

I note that 8:15 a.m. is now being muddled with 8:30 a.m., but there is no confirmation the picture was taken at 8:30 a.m., either.

I feel confident to type that I have completed not one, not two, but several clear readings of the listed articles and more. Over the years.

Desiree doesn’t simply ask us to take her word on the time; Desiree told us the time, 8:45 a.m., was confirmed with technology.

In my opinion only.

 

[FergusMcDuck]

It is believed Terri went outside for an unknown period between 8:15 a.m. and 8:45 a.m. (See quote below). She may have directed Kyron to wait for her in the gym and that’s when Kyron went up the center stairs. (main entrance).

I speculate Terri may have been outside for about 10 minutes, possibly around 8:25 a.m. to 8:35 a.m. Where was Kyron’s baby sister?

So ten minutes visiting the classroom, being seen there by GZ in front of the project, take Kyron out of the group that had yet to be formed, then visiting multiple other classrooms, go to the library, go to McBeth's classroom, slip out the school, sit in the truck for ten minutes making a call (why make the call from the car?), then ten minutes to go back, find Kyron, take him to the classroom, discuss t-shirts with GZ, take multiple pictures, then leave, making GZ believe she was going on a tour despite the bell having rung and the children supposed to gather for the group tour?

I don't see that as a realistic scenario for the very brief time span. I've studied a lot of criminal cases, and when a scenario is this busy and all over the place, that usually means that something is being added that doesn't belong there. In this case, I'd say two things - the picture placed at 8:45 and the supposed sighting of Terri in the truck. Both of these were additional info provided not by LE but by Desiree many years later. Remove these and it becomes a far simpler and realistic scenario:

Terri and Kyron arrive at or shortly after 8:15, meet with classmates and GZ, discuss t-shirts, take pictures and then go on a tour. These events fit well within a fifteen minute window, so roughly 8:15 to 8:30, the two times GZ has given. Then comes the tour, visiting classrooms, library, McBeth's room. All of that is also unlikely to take less than fifteen minutes. Terri then claims that the bell rung (8:45) and she and Kyron went up separate stairs, once they had ascended, she waved goodbye to Kyron and left the school. Then a few minutes to walk to the truck, strap in the baby and ten minutes to drive to Fred Meyer, leaving Terri with good time to go inside the megastore along with the baby, make her purchases and get a receipt.

Basically, I see one realistic scenario and an unrealistic one.

Kyron and Terri went downstairs to return library books and say hello to Kyron’s kindergarten/1st grade teacher. (Mr. McBeth). This happened during the parents’ tour hour. This was most likely a personal excursion set up by Terri to make sure Kyron was seen at the school by as many people as possible.

It may also have provided the window of opportunity Terri needed to slip outside the school for a few minutes. Possibly she left the baby in Kyron’s classroom on the 2nd floor with someone watching her, explaining she and Kyron had to go downstairs to return library books and say ‘hi’ to Mr. McBeth.

But she would still have to do it. They were seen together by more than one teacher, one of which was certainly McBeth. And there is no indication that the baby was ever left with anyone. Who would that be, and what would be the reason to do so? Why wouldn't Terri just bring the baby if she's touring the school with Kyron? If she's going outside to make a call?

Terri didn’t participate in the students’ tour. She left at 8:45 a.m. As is often said, her departure time has never been disputed.

Never claimed she was. She "toured" with Kyron ca 8:30 to ca 8:45, as in she walked around with him and looked at exhibits. The only organized tours were the ones with the chaperones between 9 and 10.

Respectfully, may I suggest a clear reading of Desiree’s statements.

I've tried, but it's difficult when events change, when new information clashes with earlier info and when the resulting scenario becomes convoluted and contrived.

How would we know what GZ believed or why she believed it? Her statements are determined by what she saw.

From Boy Missing ch 4:

The last time Alice saw Terri and Kyron was after Terri took the photo of Ellie. Kyron and his stepmother were walking away by themselves, presumably to view some of the other science projects.

Please see the snipped quote below. Strictly speaking, the parents’ tour was from 8:00 a.m until 9:00 a.m. and the students’ tour was from 9:00 a.m. until 10:00 a.m. (The 15 minutes between 8:45 a.m. and 9:00 a.m. was for the parents to leave the school and the children to return to their homerooms so they could be divided into their parent-led groups and be ready to start their tour at 9:00 a.m. The sound of the bell at 8:45 a.m. signaled the start of this change).

I suppose the statement by the host of the Dateline special could be considered technically correct as the parents’ tour was scheduled for 8:00 a.m. until 9:00 a.m. and Terri, woefully considered a parent, was leaving the parents’ tour around 8:45 a.m. Kyron was seen in the parking lot, leaving with Terri and his baby sister, around 8:50 a.m. Kyron Richard Horman was never seen again.

The various tours and times revolving around the science fair are confusing and that confusion overshadowed Kyron’s case for years, and maybe still does. It was also a big part of why Terri chose that particular morning to do what she did.

[Snipped] 8 a.m. Skyline Elementary, opens early so students and parents can tour the science fair. A billboard outside reads: "June 4, I.B. Inquiry Expo, 8-10, Talent show, 1-2:45." Kyron was to take part in both the expo/science fair and the talent show. Terri Moulton Horman arrives shortly afterward with her stepson, Kyron.
Kyron Horman: Timeline of events since boy's disappearance

I haven't seen anything that says the parents had to leave the school before 9:00, and that the fifteen minutes between 8:45 and 9:00 was for their departure. The billboard outside said the expo was between 8 and 10. All the quote from OregonLive says is that parents and children had the opportunity to tour together before the school properly started. There's nothing saying parents couldn't tour the fair without their student children,.