Kyron Horman's mom's civil suit against Terri Horman

[loves2bmom]

So happy to see Gitana1 posting again! All your points are spot on!!

 

[loves2bmom]

I DO NOT know if this is real or a scam but thought I'd post to help answer questions about lawyer fees. If this is real, Kelly is Desiree's sister.

http://www..com/kyronhorman

 

[Donjeta]

Whether it is real or not, Kyron does have an aunt named Kelly Ramirez.

Kelly Ramirez, Kyron's aunt, echoed Gates optimism. "He is out there and we are going to find him and bring him home safe where he belongs," Ramirez said during the press conference.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-20007064-504083.html

 

[Cazzie]

I DO NOT know if this is real or a scam but thought I'd post to help answer questions about lawyer fees. If this is real, Kelly is Desiree's sister.

http://www..com/kyronhorman

Hope it's not a scam (obviously).

Oh, this world we live in. :sigh:

 

[scandi]

Thanks gitana! I wish we could sticky this!!

ITA and thanks Gitana for the meaningful post.


PS: I often think about little Mari Luz ;}

 

[Jack]

I see this statement a lot: "If there was proof, there would be charges." That's a huge misconception. Proof that a person was involved in criminal activity is not the same as enough evidence that the state feels comfortable taking the case to a jury. We know there is proof in this case that Terri is involved in Kyron's disappearance. We have seen a lot of that proof. For example, her inexplicable meandering drive on quiet back country roads on the very day Kyron went missing, soon after dropping him off, with her sick baby in the car. The fact that apparently, she was the last person to actually see Kyron that we know of for sure. Her hatred of him and desire to have him be sent to Desiree, etc., etc. But none of that is likely enough proof to take this case to trial. So proof and enough proof for a trial are two different things.

If there were real evidence they would have the confidence to charge and take to trial. So you agree there is not good enough evidence to charge and take to trial. The snippits we have heard, that so many people want to give importance to, is not evidence of guilt at all.

 

[Jack]

And another thing to consider is, charge her for what? If they charge her for something minor that they can prove without finding Kyron double jeopardy might mean they couldn't charge her for murder if they found his body and the evidence pointed in that direction.

Like what? What kind of conviction would constitute double jeopardy for murder?

 

[Jack]

Well, just because you want the information to be made public isn't going to change decades of detective protocol and strategy. And my guess is after the extensive maps, interviews, timelines and witnesses at the school and in the parking lot (including timeline/maps of parking places and who was walking, entering, exiting, and looking in which direction - and who they were with) if there was "some food service delivery guy" carrying a child out of the building, they would have followed up on that the same exact way they have followed up on gaining testimony about Terri.

When evidence shows someone to be a prime suspect, it only makes sense to follow that evidence where it leads. The evidence has led to Terri. It's (obviously) not a "husband's ex-wife's hunch" - it is months of police work, eye witness testimony, email and text and cell phone records. If there had been evidence of a "food delivery service guy" then that's where they would have followed. There wasn't. So they followed the evidence that does exist - and it led to Terri.




Convincing you isn't the goal - unless you're in a future jury pool. And I don't think anyone has ever written (correct me if I'm wrong) that LE has made an announcement that Terri is the suspect. What they have done is distribute a poster with her face and vehicle on it, with a plea for witnesses and information relating to Terri's wherabouts during Kyron's abduction.

They didn't have proof Laci Peterson was no longer living, either, which is why I compared this case to that one.

One problem with this case and evidence is that when a stranger abducts and murders a child, having the child's DNA in the stranger's house or car (or having the stranger's DNA on the child's possessions) is evidence. When a family member abducts and/or murders a child, DNA evidence is useless. Both Terri's and Kyron's DNA are supposed to be mingled on everything they touched or used during the day. If a stranger was spotted on the street with the abducted child moments before their abduction, it's evidence. When a step-mom is spotted in a school with an abducted child moments before their abduction, it can't be used as evidence. Therefore the key evidence in a stranger abduction case is easier to come by and a bell-ringer in court. The same exact quality and quantity of evidence in a family abduction case is not usable in court. That's why they could have ALL of the same evidence against Terri used to prosecute the killer in the case you described, but because she and her alleged victim shared a home and car ordinarily, it can't be used in the same way.



So far the stuff that has been released against terri has been pretty shocking to me. Pretty sensationalistic. And that's just the tiny amount they released.

I think maybe you didn't comprehend the points I was making in my posts. And so I will just say that I can't really respond to a lot of what you've written because it isn't relevant. But I will say that I agree with your last point. A lot of what has been released against TH is pretty sensationalistic. It is not, however, evidence of wrongdoing against Kyron.

 

[Jack]

If there was a chance that someone who worked at the school grabbed Kyron, then why isn't Terri suing the school and Multnomah County? She's had plenty of time to do it, and she's got a good attorney.

My opinion - because she knows what happened to Kyron.

Desiree isn't doing any of this for Kaine or just to get back at Terri. It's to get her little boy back, one way or another.



Desiree can say anything she wants to say. It's a free country and she is a grieving mother. If Terri doesn't like what Desiree is saying, then let her answer all the questions right down the line. JMOO

But I bet she won't. Same reason she won't fight for her little daughter - she will incriminate herself, and she knows it. The court filings basically spell that out if you go and read them. She refuses to talk to a court-appointed psychologist and do what is necessary to get to see her daughter again because it might be used against her in future proceedings. Her lawyer wrote that - it's not just snark or made up.

That doesn't make sense. You're suggesting that TH should have already solved the case and be suing people when an entire police force/state/country haven't been able to solve the case?

And I agree, Desiree can say whatever she wants. But being the mother of a missing child, or the wife of a LE officer does not mean she is right about everything concerning the case. She very well could be right, and if she is then the evidence will show it. If she isn't then what good will have been done by focusing on TH?

I don,t think the point of not fighting for her daughter is relevant. If you had the choice of possibly going to prison for life, pretty much ending any possibility of any kind of relationship with your child, or doing what you could to try to salvage some sort of a relationship somewhere down the line which would you do? Rhetorical question... we all like to think we know what we would do.

 

[mmmagique]

Question:

Do you guys think she will testify, or just let it go and let whatever happens happen?

Sorry I'm late to the party, but I don't believe she will ever testify. (unless there is a murder trial with no body, and then, it might be difficult for her lawyer to keep her from talking)

 

[ami]

I think maybe you didn't comprehend the points I was making in my posts. And so I will just say that I can't really respond to a lot of what you've written because it isn't relevant. But I will say that I agree with your last point. A lot of what has been released against TH is pretty sensationalistic. It is not, however, evidence of wrongdoing against Kyron.

Your points were simple enough to comprehend - they were just wrong.

I know you don't agree (for unspecified reasons) with the lawyer upthread who explained how these investigations work in the real world, but she gave you the facts you need to know to inform yourself, if that's your goal.

 

[JeannaT]

Sorry I'm late to the party, but I don't believe she will ever testify. (unless there is a murder trial with no body, and then, it might be difficult for her lawyer to keep her from talking)

I agree she will not testify - it looks to me like she has absolutely zero to gain by testifying, and the world to lose. She can't be "compelled" to say anything, which is the ultimate goal of this lawsuit, and has no money assets even if they with a large money judgement.

She hasn't spoken up until now, it seems very unlikely in my mind that she will even be present in court for this proceeding if it happens.

 

[Cazzie]

JMO but I think it's so telling that Terri gave up Baby K...altho maybe she knew/knows that Baby K is safer now (from her). <<< a smidgeon of the benefit of the doubt

IMO a real mother would have fought to keep her...a real mother (stepmother) would have mothered Kyron instead of hated him...

All that said...again, I think it is brilliant that Desiree filed this suit...and I wish her the best in all ways.

IMO, Terri will not say a word unless she has a spiritual enlightening (or she somehow finds financial reward). JMO.

Not a psychologist but gee, this is so easy to see. JMO

Please don't make me look at that one photo of Terri with Kyron...at that public place, restaurant or whatever...that photo gave me chills that I don't want to remember...

It really reminded me of Andrea Yates. Luckily she is locked up. Terri is not (yet).

My mind is still boggled by why there are no charges yet...did someone in LE get paid off? Not accusing LE...but WTH?

 

[dizzydazze]

I disagree. A small school, little kids, intensive questioning after the fact by LE with lists made of every single person people saw, people knew and didn't know in the school and outside the school, inside the parking lot INCLUDING cars and which spots they were parked, review of all the pictures people took? And Terri last saw Kyron NOT in the science fair area but upstairs in the hallway steps from his classroom after the fair. Where a stranger pushing a child-sized bin or footlocker would have stood out like a sore thumb, but whom we've never heard a peep about.

Also, you're right in that anyone who saw Terri knew her. Which is why, after questioning everyone at the elementary school, it's interesting that the only picture LE released was of Terri and her truck. With the request that anyone who saw Terri (not a mystery person) should contact LE immediately. And anyone parked in the parking lot near Terri should contact LE immediately. And anyone who drove on the roads after the abduction and saw someone who looked like Terri, or who drove her truck, should contact LE. And why Desiree accidentally slipped and mentioned that someone saw Kyron getting into Terri's truck -- before Kaine stopped her at the press conference and said there were things they just couldn't share yet.

Yeah - Terri was seen at the science fair, repeatedly, as Kyron's stepmother, which is why people didn't care that they saw her or raise any alarms at the time. A stranger wheeling a footlocker hours before a report of a young boy disappearing from the hallway would have been pretty remarkably memorable. It's weird that no one saw them.

The science fair was not over until close to 10am, the students were to meet at their classrooms by 9am to get into groups and tour all the exhibits together.

What gets me is the volunteer that was in charge of the group Kyron was to be with, she would have had to have a starting head count at the beginning for her to notice that Kyron was not there at the end. So, it puts it outside of the before 9am timeline.

Now with that said, my gut tells me TH has knowledge of who did remove Kyron but I guess we will see how it plays out.

 

[gwenabob]

The science fair was not over until close to 10am, the students were to meet at their classrooms by 9am to get into groups and tour all the exhibits together.

What gets me is the volunteer that was in charge of the group Kyron was to be with, she would have had to have a starting head count at the beginning for her to notice that Kyron was not there at the end. So, it puts it outside of the before 9am timeline.

Now with that said, my gut tells me TH has knowledge of who did remove Kyron but I guess we will see how it plays out.

I believe the volunteer noticed Kyron was missing at the very beginning when she was assembling her group. She was given a list, noticed her number was short, realized Kyron was missing and noted it to the teacher at that time. I think it was noted he was missing before they ever went out.

 

[gliving]

I believe the volunteer noticed Kyron was missing at the very beginning when she was assembling her group. She was given a list, noticed her number was short, realized Kyron was missing and noted it to the teacher at that time. I think it was noted he was missing before they ever went out.

Gwenabob, at what point does Kyron's friend say Kyron's missing and the teacher says he must be in the bathroom?

"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fbj-OoJtqrs&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL1F32481DAA591C2B"]

News report of Kyron's friend saying what happened. The friends name is mentioned in the report, but I'll refrain from using his name here.

Perhaps this should be in the general discussion thread? I'll move it if needed. TIA

 

[Chili Fries]

Gwenabob, at what point does Kyron's friend say Kyron's missing and the teacher says he must be in the bathroom?

"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fbj-OoJtqrs&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL1F32481DAA591C2B"]

News report of Kyron's friend saying what happened. The friends name is mentioned in the report, but I'll refrain from using his name here.

Perhaps this should be in the general discussion thread? I'll move it if needed. TIA

Yeah the reporting hasn't been exactly clear but it does seem that the last time he was seen was at 8:45, which is also when Terri said she left, but he wasn't marked absent until 9:45 - 10, when the classes convened after the science fair tours. That report sounds like the sub marked him absent and left, so his regular teacher, Kristina Porter, probably didn't have a reason to think anything was amiss. My guess is also that nobody was worried about Kyron not being with a group during the science fair tours (that had been going on from 8-10) because they had seen him with Terri and just assumed he was touring the projects with her.

 

[cluciano63]

Like what? What kind of conviction would constitute double jeopardy for murder?

She can be charged with murder later on, even if convicted for now of custodial interference or tampering, etc...not sure why LE would not proceed with some kind of charges if they had any evidence she was involved or knows what happened to Kyron. In no way would it prevent a future murder charge, so I am not understanding this part either.

Just like with Baby Kate (Phillips?)- her father has been convicted on other charges relating to her disappearance and will serve 15 years-better than nothing. But he can still be charged with murder if she is found and there is evidence linking him to her death. Also, Bianca Jone's father is being charged with murder, although she has not been found, as his story was fishy from the start.

So why no charges against Terri after two years of investigation? I would have to say a lack of any real evidence, just lots of conjecture combined with at the very least poor judgement and behavior on her part. It is not against the law to dislike a stepchild, even if it is unacceptable to society, nor is it against the law to give up custody of your child without a fight. Happens all the time, for less reason than possibly having to face felony charges.

JMO, I have no idea if she is guilty of anything more than being a lousy mother to Kyron, and being selfish, or if she is a cold-blooded murderer. But apparently, neither does LE.

JMOJMOJMOJMOJMOJMOJMO

 

[gliving]

cluciano63, I agree about the missing evidence.

"A large part of an investigation like this is eliminating people as suspects," sheriff's chief deputy Jason Gates said.

During the investigation of the other potential persons of interest, the team realized that some evidence -- namely phone records and computer log-on information from Skyline School the day Kyron went missing -- were not kept by the school district as the sheriff's office didn't request the preservation of those records.

Staton and Gates said they did obtain other information from the school via a search warrant submitted to Superintendent Carole Smith, but could not comment on the school phone records or computer data being preserved."

"If we run out of things to do, that would be a time to consider classifying this as a cold case," Gates said.


http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2011/06/kyron_horman_task_force_to_dis.html

 

[Knox]

I honestly don't know how anyone can look at the actions of Terri Horman and conclude she had nothing to do with Kyron's disappearance.

Go Desiree!!!!!