Kyron Horman's mom's civil suit against Terri Horman

[Helenstreet]

I'm not sure why divorce court would be an inappropriate place to fish for information about the missing child of the divorcing couple - custody issues are settled in divorce court, as are allegations of sexual or physical abuse (which are also criminal matters) against the children involved - these issues of family misconduct are PART of the divorce and custody issues - so why wouldn't it also be appropriate to question allegations of the kidnap and murder of the children involved? And the judge's personal feelings of amusement or lack thereof should have zero to do with anyone's attempts to find Kyron's remains, nor can I see how it would affect Kaine's divorce petition. So he has an unamused judge signing off on the dissolution of his marriage - so what?

In any case, if there was even a 0.0000001% chance that Terri would trade information for the potential to have a relationship with her baby, of course they should have gone for it. And if she keeps pleading the 5th, so be it. At least Desiree is within her rights to pursue it, and her attorney will do his best to subpoena information - that is the important part. They are using the legal channels open to them to SEEK information and justice. I'm glad they don't have the defeatist attitude that if they suspect Terri might plead the 5th, they won't even bother trying. I can't imagine any humane person writing off their missing child because a judge MIGHT be unamused or because the potential murderer MIGHT plead the 5th.



As they said in the press conference, they are putting pressure on Terri by these requests. Clearly a kidnapper and murderer is not going to obey an authority telling her to give information about her crime. If they were honest enough to follow that kind of legal direction, they wouldn't have murdered a child, lied and then kept quiet about the crime for years in the first place. So no, I don't think they expect Terri to obey a legal order to confess the location of Kyron or his remains to them.

My impression is that this pressure is part of the same pressure started by LE when they uncovered whatever evidence led them to putting Terri's face and vehicle descriptions on posters with public requests for information about her location and actions on the morning Kyron disappeared. And that pressure continued with the public press conferences in which Desiree and Kaine were allowed to share with the media that LE had shown them emails and documents that convinced them Terri was guilty. And that pressure continued further with the removal of Terri from her home and her baby. And the release of her sexual texts after her baby was taken from her. And with the posters put up near her parents' home that urged people to question her about Kyron. And now the law suit that might expose more of her emails, texts and actions, and which will continue to publicize her face under headlines that urge her to lead grieving parents to their child's remains.

My assumption is that it is believed that Kyron is the only child Terri has kidnapped and/or murdered, and that she might possibly be emotionally affected by her actions, and therefore she MIGHT be susceptible to mentally cracking under all of this pressure and might not be able to keep the mental breakdown to herself, and maybe finally, under extreme stress, she might get drunk or crazed enough to let something slip to someone. And that finally LE could use that thread to start to unravel the truth.

I don't think it's a bad plan.

I agree with everything that you have written. I am very impressed with Desiree's resolve to find answers for her son, Kyron's disappearance. At the very least, this latest court filing by Desiree Young puts Kyron's story back in the media. Did you notice how after a year of silence, Jason Gates made a public statement about the case? That is a good thing, although I am not sure if it was because of Desiree's civil suit filing or because it is almost the two year anniversary of Kyron's disappearance. :moo:

 

[ami]

There is the possibility that a civil trial will uncover evidence LE doesn't have. Witnesses testifying under oath is like them being re-interviewed by law enforcement. And Desiree's attorneys can provide a fresh set of eyes. Maybe they'll come up with a perspective LE hasn't thought of. I do think it's possible that a civil trial could provide the impetus for some kind of criminal charge to be filed against Terri.

I hope there are cameras in the courtroom if it does go to trial. Anyone know the possibility of that in the appropriate civil court?

I don't know, but Desiree's attorney made a point of emphasizing "public trial" in his press conference. Did anyone else hear that? I got the feeling there was a point being made that the information they subpoenaed would be made public via the civil trial.

I don't know if that was aimed at LE, who have kept the evidence on lock down for the most part, or aimed at Terri to assure her that her dirty laundry would be well aired.

 

[scandi]

I don't know, but Desiree's attorney made a point of emphasizing "public trial" in his press conference. Did anyone else hear that? I got the feeling there was a point being made that the information they subpoenaed would be made public via the civil trial.

I don't know if that was aimed at LE, who have kept the evidence on lock down for the most part, or aimed at Terri to assure her that her dirty laundry would be well aired.

Hi Ami, what I heard was inferred {actually stated on Channel 6 News} that Mr Rosenthal gained experience during the trial defending the civil rights of Mulugeta Seraw that would assist him in this civil case to discover and prove what happened to Kyron.

Could it be if we took a look at that Seraw case and find out how Rosenthal pled his case, tactics used, types of questions asked, circumstances of the crime looked at, etc. ~ we might have a good idea how he will approach and attack Kyron's civil rights case. That would be very interesting to do if we can find data about Seraw's case, maybe would make a good thread if we have a 'go for it' poster who understands law. ;}


http://www.rosenthal-greene.com/seraw.pdf

Snippet

I'm here to say that even though we elected an African American president there is an irreducible 1% of the population that hides under the rocks, Elden Rosenthal said.

"The value of the case was that we shined a light under those rocks for a couple of weeks in Portland".

 

[ami]

Hi Ami, what I heard was inferred {actually stated on Channel 6 News} that Mr Rosenthal gained experience during the trial defending the civil rights of Mulugeta Seraw that would assist him in this civil case to discover and prove what happened to Kyron.

Could it be if we took a look at that Seraw case and find out how Rosenthal pled his case, tactics used, types of questions asked, circumstances of the crime looked at, etc. ~ we might have a good idea how he will approach and attack Kyron's civil rights case. That would be very interesting to do if we can find data about Seraw's case, maybe would make a good thread if we have a 'go for it' poster who understands law. ;}


http://www.rosenthal-greene.com/seraw.pdf

Snippet

I'm here to say that even though we elected an African American president there is an irreducible 1% of the population that hides under the rocks, Elden Rosenthal said.

"The value of the case was that we shined a light under those rocks for a couple of weeks in Portland".

Oooh, good call!

 

[Jack]

As they said in the press conference, they are putting pressure on Terri by these requests. Clearly a kidnapper and murderer is not going to obey an authority telling her to give information about her crime. If they were honest enough to follow that kind of legal direction, they wouldn't have murdered a child, lied and then kept quiet about the crime for years in the first place. So no, I don't think they expect Terri to obey a legal order to confess the location of Kyron or his remains to them.

My impression is that this pressure is part of the same pressure started by LE when they uncovered whatever evidence led them to putting Terri's face and vehicle descriptions on posters with public requests for information about her location and actions on the morning Kyron disappeared. And that pressure continued with the public press conferences in which Desiree and Kaine were allowed to share with the media that LE had shown them emails and documents that convinced them Terri was guilty. And that pressure continued further with the removal of Terri from her home and her baby. And the release of her sexual texts after her baby was taken from her. And with the posters put up near her parents' home that urged people to question her about Kyron. And now the law suit that might expose more of her emails, texts and actions, and which will continue to publicize her face under headlines that urge her to lead grieving parents to their child's remains.

My assumption is that it is believed that Kyron is the only child Terri has kidnapped and/or murdered, and that she might possibly be emotionally affected by her actions, and therefore she MIGHT be susceptible to mentally cracking under all of this pressure and might not be able to keep the mental breakdown to herself, and maybe finally, under extreme stress, she might get drunk or crazed enough to let something slip to someone. And that finally LE could use that thread to start to unravel the truth.

I don't think it's a bad plan.

And what if they are wrong? What if in the end some food service delivery guy grabbed Kyron as he walked though the cafeteria to go see an exhibit? Wouldn't all this be counter productive then? I agree with Jeanna who said that DY would stand a better chance of getting real information by suing the county instead of TH.

But I have always thought if DY has some real evidence against TH she ought to put it out there. All the innuendo and snarkyness isn't doing anything to further her cause of finding Kyron. Maybe she will if this case moves forward. I almost wish it would, on the offhand chance it would somehow really bring answers. But I also don't want to see someone persecuted based on her husband's ex-wife's hunch. I don't put much stock in that.

 

[Jack]

How can a person be compelled to talk? If she doesn't want to, they can't force words to come from her mouth.

I also wonder how they can compel TH to tell the whereabouts of Kyron if she doesn't actually know.

It can be argued that LE and DY have enough proof of TH's involvement to convince them of her guilt & whatnot, but until I get to see some of this proof, I am actually trying to keep an open mind, and since I haven't come across any evidence that proves to me that TH was the person responsible for taking Kyron from Skyline, I am not convinced she did it.

Totally agree. If there was proof at this point she would be charged. I may have missed something but I don't believe LE has ever come out and indicated the believe she is responsible either. I think the only person who has done that is DY but I don't think she has shown any real evidence to back up her claims.

Doubt the lawsuit will be allowed to go forward at this time. Or if it does it will be dismissed at some point. If you're going to accuse someone and sue then you'd better have some evidence, which I don't believe they have. All the threats to bring in TH's friends and add additional people to the lawsuit are just that, threats. Meant to scare and intimidate. They will either need to prove what they are asserting or the case will be dismissed.

 

[Jack]

It IS a fishing expedition and a pressure tactic, as they explicitly said during the press conference. They are "fishing" for evidence, and they are putting pressure on Terri in every way possible to compel her to speak.

The worst that happens is actually that Kyron's case gets attention, which is excellent since he's still a missing person and a lot of time has passed. So this is a small win/big win scenario.

LE does have proof that satisfies them and the family that Terri was responsible. Proof that points to the murderer and proof that can prosecute Terri of murder in the absence of a body are slightly different -just like in the Scott Peterson case. I remember how blown away I was when I realized the extent of evidence LE had against Scott and how they had to sit on it until Laci's body was found. I'm sure this is the same. When both LE and the family saw the evidence they were satisfied that Terri was guilty and are now focused on finding his remains (probably) so the case can move forward.

Even the small amount of evidence they've released to the public has been pretty shocking - at least to me -about Terri's state of mind and behavior as a parent. I do hope this civil case allows the family to see more of the evidence LE has been sitting on.

I'll have to go back again and look but to my knowledge there has not been a statement given by LE that they believe TH to be responsible for the disappearance of Kyron. Nor do they have any proof Kyron is no longer living. Not all cases are like the Peterson's. For instance, one of my school mates was kidnapped from her apartment, robbed, murdered, and disposed of. Her body has never been found. Her murderer however sits in a jail cell successfully convicted of her murder. There was real evidence in her case, and it was used to put her murderer behind bars for the rest of his natural life. IMO, without that sort of strong irrefutable proof of death and a clear connection to TH there will never be criminal charges brought against TH.

I kind of hope we get to see some of the evidence they have too. Maybe something will convince me she is responsible.

 

[Jack]

I don't know, but Desiree's attorney made a point of emphasizing "public trial" in his press conference. Did anyone else hear that? I got the feeling there was a point being made that the information they subpoenaed would be made public via the civil trial.

I don't know if that was aimed at LE, who have kept the evidence on lock down for the most part, or aimed at Terri to assure her that her dirty laundry would be well aired.

The judge would have to allow any evidence based upon the relevance to the assertions being made against her. Attorneys make all kinds of grand statements meant to intimidate by implying they are the ones in control. However, it is the statements made when it's time to put up or shut up that count. Don't read too much into the sensationalism.

 

[Chili Fries]

And what if they are wrong? What if in the end some food service delivery guy grabbed Kyron as he walked though the cafeteria to go see an exhibit? Wouldn't all this be counter productive then? I agree with Jeanna who said that DY would stand a better chance of getting real information by suing the county instead of TH.

But I have always thought if DY has some real evidence against TH she ought to put it out there. All the innuendo and snarkyness isn't doing anything to further her cause of finding Kyron. Maybe she will if this case moves forward. I almost wish it would, on the offhand chance it would somehow really bring answers. But I also don't want to see someone persecuted based on her husband's ex-wife's hunch. I don't put much stock in that.

Desiree is Kyron's mom.

 

[Jack]

Desiree is Kyron's mom.

I know that. Isn't she also TH's husband's ex wife?

 

[daisy.faithfull]

I know that. Isn't she also TH's husband's ex wife?

Huh? Wow, I don't remember that?

 

[joshiesmom]

I can't explain why Terri let her daughter go without a fight. Maybe that is absolute proof of her guilt/involvement in Kyron's disappearance. But you know, lots of mothers walk away from their children and don't see them very often (if at all), and that doesn't mean they are guilty of anything (except maybe being self-centered).

Desiree did not have custody of Kyron OR her older son (by her first marriage). Two children by two different men, both with the same outcome (living with their father rather than their mother). Yes, I realize the excuse of her supposed health issues has been given as to why she gave custody of Kyron to Kaine, but what about the other son?

The papers continue to report about how Kyron was a regular visitor to the Rogue Valley to see his mom. Desiree is quoted saying how sad she is because she can't tuck Kyron into bed each night. I lived next door to Desiree & Tony for 4 years and in that time, Kyron came to visit his mother for a couple weeks each year and that was it. YES, she absolutely deserves to know what happened to her child and I am in no way discounting her emotional pain, which I am sure is immense, but honesty about how things were is still important, in my opinion.

Anyway, I realize that she's trying to get information about Kyron's whereabouts. I have followed this case since the day I received a call from one of my neighbors asking if I had heard Kyron went missing from his school and I am familiar with the weird stuff Terri did in the immediate aftermath. While I don't condone her behavior, I also don't believe it proves her guilt. Also, the murder-for-hire was never proven, so I don't know that it actually ever happened.

I am anticipating hearing what is learned from this civil suit. I do hope Kyron's whereabouts are finally learned. I hope that his parents do learn what happened to him and I hope that whoever took him goes to prison. But like I said before, until I see all of this great proof that LE has against Terri (that isn't great enough to arrest her or charge her with a crime of any sort), I am not sentencing her as guilty.

 

[ThoughtFox]

It occurred to me that it might be much more useful for Desiree to sue Multnomah (sp) county to compel them to share their findings. If what Desiree is after are answers, she'd stand a better chance of seeing the totality of the evidence, and furthering the cause by seeing what LE has, IMHO. Terri's not going to say a thing.

Sue LE, really? :what: After all the time they have spent looking for this child?

Never. Desiree is married to a cop - they won't sue the police.

It's not just about information. It's about putting Terri in the hot seat.

And I agree with everyone else here who has said that any mother who refuses to do what's necessary to see her own biological daughter has to be hiding something. :maddening:

The fact that she drank at night or even sexted with other men doesn't mean that she would never get shared custody of her child someday. But as some of our legal experts here have said over and over - doing nothing to see her child means that she will probably never have custody. By not fighting back, she gave up custody. It's like an acknowledgement of guilt.

 

[gliving]

Thanks for your post joshiesmom. Local perspective is most valued and especially relevant.

I do wonder what Kaine meant when he said gloves were off. His present estrangement from Desiree could perhaps complicate the situation. I only hope Desiree the best of luck in her venture. That said, I'm reminded of the saying "be careful what you ask for".


Disclosure will be very interesting for all involved. I assume Kaine also has an attorney on retainer.

 

[ThoughtFox]

And what if they are wrong? What if in the end some food service delivery guy grabbed Kyron as he walked though the cafeteria to go see an exhibit? Wouldn't all this be counter productive then? I agree with Jeanna who said that DY would stand a better chance of getting real information by suing the county instead of TH.

If there was a chance that someone who worked at the school grabbed Kyron, then why isn't Terri suing the school and Multnomah County? She's had plenty of time to do it, and she's got a good attorney.

My opinion - because she knows what happened to Kyron.

Desiree isn't doing any of this for Kaine or just to get back at Terri. It's to get her little boy back, one way or another.

But I have always thought if DY has some real evidence against TH she ought to put it out there. All the innuendo and snarkyness isn't doing anything to further her cause of finding Kyron. Maybe she will if this case moves forward. I almost wish it would, on the offhand chance it would somehow really bring answers. But I also don't want to see someone persecuted based on her husband's ex-wife's hunch. I don't put much stock in that.

Desiree can say anything she wants to say. It's a free country and she is a grieving mother. If Terri doesn't like what Desiree is saying, then let her answer all the questions right down the line. JMOO

But I bet she won't. Same reason she won't fight for her little daughter - she will incriminate herself, and she knows it. The court filings basically spell that out if you go and read them. She refuses to talk to a court-appointed psychologist and do what is necessary to get to see her daughter again because it might be used against her in future proceedings. Her lawyer wrote that - it's not just snark or made up.

 

[freefallzzzz]

I have followed this case since the day I received a call from one of my neighbors asking if I had heard Kyron went missing from his school and I am familiar with the weird stuff Terri did in the immediate aftermath. While I don't condone her behavior, I also don't believe it proves her guilt. Also, the murder-for-hire was never proven, so I don't know that it actually ever happened.

I am anticipating hearing what is learned from this civil suit. I do hope Kyron's whereabouts are finally learned. I hope that his parents do learn what happened to him and I hope that whoever took him goes to prison. But like I said before, until I see all of this great proof that LE has against Terri (that isn't great enough to arrest her or charge her with a crime of any sort), I am not sentencing her as guilty.

I too have followed this from the night I heard the ATL go out on the local scanner for Kyron. I've heard some things I cannot post, I've been in most of the search areas.. I keep an open mind, I know we all want justice for Kyron but I'd rather have LE work this case and if they need to keep info close to the vest, in order to build a case for the person who took Kyron, then I am fine with that.

I rarely post my opinion in here but I do not feel or have an opinion that anyone (this includes TH) at this point is guilty, how can I? There is SO much LE knows that we don't (which is fine with me) but I do understand parents wanting answers and taking action. I would do the same.


I look forward to seeing how this all plays out.


Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Helenstreet]

Sue LE, really? :what: After all the time they have spent looking for this child?

Never. Desiree is married to a cop - they won't sue the police.

It's not just about information. It's about putting Terri in the hot seat.

And I agree with everyone else here who has said that any mother who refuses to do what's necessary to see her own biological daughter has to be hiding something. :maddening:

The fact that she drank at night or even sexted with other men doesn't mean that she would never get shared custody of her child someday. But as some of our legal experts here have said over and over - doing nothing to see her child means that she will probably never have custody. By not fighting back, she gave up custody. It's like an acknowledgement of guilt.

Exactly.

 

[Donjeta]

The papers continue to report about how Kyron was a regular visitor to the Rogue Valley to see his mom. Desiree is quoted saying how sad she is because she can't tuck Kyron into bed each night. I lived next door to Desiree & Tony for 4 years and in that time, Kyron came to visit his mother for a couple weeks each year and that was it. YES, she absolutely deserves to know what happened to her child and I am in no way discounting her emotional pain, which I am sure is immense, but honesty about how things were is still important, in my opinion. .

SBM.
Maybe you tended to notice him more on his longer visits?

Carol Moulton, Terri's mother, said that Kyron visited Desiree and Tony every couple of weeks and it seems like she'd be someone who would know. From what we've heard of Terri it seems like she absolutely would have complained to everybody if Kyron rarely visited his mother.
I don't see why Terri's mother could have any reason to lie to make things look better for Desiree.


http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/06/details_emerge_about_the_day_k.html

Carol Moulton said that Kaine, 36, and Terri, 40, have been together for seven or eight years and that they have been married for four or five years. The couple have an 18-month-old girl.

"Terri has raised Kyron," her mother said. "She's been with him since he was an infant. She's as much of a mom as the mom is because the parents had separated about the time that Kyron was born."

She said he visits his biological mother in Medford every couple of weeks and that Desiree, 38, came to Portland as soon as she heard about his disappearance.

 

[ami]

And what if they are wrong? What if in the end some food service delivery guy grabbed Kyron as he walked though the cafeteria to go see an exhibit? Wouldn't all this be counter productive then? I agree with Jeanna who said that DY would stand a better chance of getting real information by suing the county instead of TH.

But I have always thought if DY has some real evidence against TH she ought to put it out there. All the innuendo and snarkyness isn't doing anything to further her cause of finding Kyron. Maybe she will if this case moves forward. I almost wish it would, on the offhand chance it would somehow really bring answers. But I also don't want to see someone persecuted based on her husband's ex-wife's hunch. I don't put much stock in that.

Well, just because you want the information to be made public isn't going to change decades of detective protocol and strategy. And my guess is after the extensive maps, interviews, timelines and witnesses at the school and in the parking lot (including timeline/maps of parking places and who was walking, entering, exiting, and looking in which direction - and who they were with) if there was "some food service delivery guy" carrying a child out of the building, they would have followed up on that the same exact way they have followed up on gaining testimony about Terri.

When evidence shows someone to be a prime suspect, it only makes sense to follow that evidence where it leads. The evidence has led to Terri. It's (obviously) not a "husband's ex-wife's hunch" - it is months of police work, eye witness testimony, email and text and cell phone records. If there had been evidence of a "food delivery service guy" then that's where they would have followed. There wasn't. So they followed the evidence that does exist - and it led to Terri.

I'll have to go back again and look but to my knowledge there has not been a statement given by LE that they believe TH to be responsible for the disappearance of Kyron. Nor do they have any proof Kyron is no longer living. Not all cases are like the Peterson's. For instance, one of my school mates was kidnapped from her apartment, robbed, murdered, and disposed of. Her body has never been found. Her murderer however sits in a jail cell successfully convicted of her murder. There was real evidence in her case, and it was used to put her murderer behind bars for the rest of his natural life. IMO, without that sort of strong irrefutable proof of death and a clear connection to TH there will never be criminal charges brought against TH.

I kind of hope we get to see some of the evidence they have too. Maybe something will convince me she is responsible.

Convincing you isn't the goal - unless you're in a future jury pool. And I don't think anyone has ever written (correct me if I'm wrong) that LE has made an announcement that Terri is the suspect. What they have done is distribute a poster with her face and vehicle on it, with a plea for witnesses and information relating to Terri's wherabouts during Kyron's abduction.

They didn't have proof Laci Peterson was no longer living, either, which is why I compared this case to that one.

One problem with this case and evidence is that when a stranger abducts and murders a child, having the child's DNA in the stranger's house or car (or having the stranger's DNA on the child's possessions) is evidence. When a family member abducts and/or murders a child, DNA evidence is useless. Both Terri's and Kyron's DNA are supposed to be mingled on everything they touched or used during the day. If a stranger was spotted on the street with the abducted child moments before their abduction, it's evidence. When a step-mom is spotted in a school with an abducted child moments before their abduction, it can't be used as evidence. Therefore the key evidence in a stranger abduction case is easier to come by and a bell-ringer in court. The same exact quality and quantity of evidence in a family abduction case is not usable in court. That's why they could have ALL of the same evidence against Terri used to prosecute the killer in the case you described, but because she and her alleged victim shared a home and car ordinarily, it can't be used in the same way.

The judge would have to allow any evidence based upon the relevance to the assertions being made against her. Attorneys make all kinds of grand statements meant to intimidate by implying they are the ones in control. However, it is the statements made when it's time to put up or shut up that count. Don't read too much into the sensationalism.

So far the stuff that has been released against terri has been pretty shocking to me. Pretty sensationalistic. And that's just the tiny amount they released.

 

[pinktoes]

there were some tweets about why underhill was on the steps with the crowd with DY; all that addressed it said the same thing. Here's one reporter's tweet:

"Incoming Mult. Co DA Rod Underhill was among those watching Desiree Young press conference. He too waited in line for a copy of lawsuit."

http://twitter.com/#!/kyleiboshi