Lesbian Couple's Daughter Denied Admittance to School

[rosario]

hi everyone, great posts!!!!as a christian I feel soo sad that a "christian" school would reject a child, they absolutely have the right which I deeply respect but it bothers me that they are demonstrating negative behavior to the children and the community..I dont have a lot of gay friends and so at this point in my childrens life they have not had a lot of experiences directly involving them (my children), however, i openly talk to my children about the fact that they need to respect people and judge them by how they treat people not by their lifestyle differences...god bless

 

[southcitymom]

I don't know about this particular school or parish. But some individual Episcopal congregations have refused to accept changes in the church. I've even heard of cases where a congregation left the church entirely.

The African Anglican churches (part of the worldwide Anglican convention, as are Episcopalians in this country) tend to be particularly homophobic and there is still the possibility the worldwide denomination will have a schism.

You're absolutely right, friend! But some of us are working on it.....

 

[Belinda]

BTW - I put my daughter through Catholic school. Egads. I wish I knew then what I know now. She got a good education, but aside from the scandal, I would not wish her to be taught the so-called values of the church. She luckily took it all in stride and is a person who finds value in all people and lifestyles. I am so thankful she wasn't poisoned into being a bigoted, self-righteous person. That would have broken my heart.

 

[Nova]

BTW - I put my daughter through Catholic school. Egads. I wish I knew then what I know now. She got a good education, but aside from the scandal, I would not wish her to be taught the so-called values of the church. She luckily took it all in stride and is a person who finds value in all people and lifestyles. I am so thankful she wasn't poisoned into being a bigoted, self-righteous person. That would have broken my heart.

It's my understanding that there are a lot of good Catholic schools out there where the indoctrination is minimal. I've had several non-Catholic friends teach at such schools and love it.

At the college level, Jesuit colleges in particular are famous for the quality of their education and many, many non-Catholics go there.

Broad generalization here, but the problem, in terms of learning, is more with some of the fundamentalist Protestant sects. You know, the ones who want to teach that the world is 6,000 years old.

Whatever its other problems, the Catholic church does believe in evolution and isn't necessarily hostile to science.

 

[kgeaux]

I don't agree with the schools decision, but I just want to say that this is NOT the only school like that out there. In fact, in private schools with religious denominations, this is quite common. It's the same reason an atheist family would be denied admittance...the school doesn't believe in or agree with the childs home life because it goes against their religious teachings.

Not saying it's right, just saying that almost any religiously based private school would've done a similar thing.

I was once asked to sign a contract with a small private school stating that my children would not be allowed to watch certain cartoons, tv shows or movies that were rated anything but "G"

We did not have a tv, so it would have been easy to sign the contract, but I refused to do so because of the small-mindedness behind it. We chose to homeschool instead, and I've been ever thankful that we did.

This school is correct when it says it isn't a good fit for the child. I think it is atrocious to use a parent's sexuality "against" a child, but that child does not need to hear what that school is going to teach about her parents and their lifestyle. In fact, if I were her mother, I'd withdraw her voluntarily because of the poor "fit" of the school.

 

[Nova]

Great post, as usual, k. I stand by my comments on the school, but I agree with you that the child is better off somewhere else. Anywhere else, actually. And any child, for that matter.

 

[Cubby]

BTW - I put my daughter through Catholic school. Egads. I wish I knew then what I know now. She got a good education, but aside from the scandal, I would not wish her to be taught the so-called values of the church. She luckily took it all in stride and is a person who finds value in all people and lifestyles. I am so thankful she wasn't poisoned into being a bigoted, self-righteous person. That would have broken my heart.

My son currently attends Catholic school. Personally, I left for 20 years and went back. I find it incredibly unfair to all the faithful Catholics who do not abuse children to lump an entire community into any category. Kind of like saying everyone on welfare are cheaters or all single mothers are wh*res..... Or all of ANY community are such and such. It furthers bigotry and discrimination imo.

I also personally question the mothers decision in this case to be so pissy about this school not accepting this child. It appears to me they are only interested in using their child as a pawn to make a statement about their beliefs. Why expose a child to that? Children should NOT be exposed to such adult agenda's. Let the children learn age appropriately. I doubt my 7 yr old would even notice a same sex couple at this time. It is simply not something which crosses his mind at such a young age. If he asked, he at least knows to ask ME in private when it would not embarras anyone he is asking about.

What ever happened to each their own?

JMO

ETA: I consider myself a pretty liberal Catholic. While the church teaches one thing which we choose to believe, we can also teach tolerance and that not everyone will choose the same beliefs as our own. I had a doozy of a conversation with my son when he was 6 trying to explain not everyone believes in Jesus........ I would NEVER teach him hatred.

 

[gitana1]

BBM. I forgot about that. I wonder, then, if there is some other reason they were rejected?

Yes, this is a branch of the church that veered from the acceptance of gay marriage or clergy. (I can't remember which). In general, the Episcopal church tends to be pretty liberal. But there was a heated schism due to the gay issue. I rather think it is the school that is trying to make a statement, and not the parents.
I do not believe this school teaches that homosexuality is wrong. Even if this branch believes so, it is unlike the Episcopal church to actively teach such a thing to small children or to speak about it much from the pulpit. But Texas tends to be more conservative so I don't know.
In an event, the parents are religious and want their daughter raised with Christian values. In anticipation of an argument I think may be coming as a result of that last statement, IMO, being against the gay rights issue is NOT a Christian value and not all churches or clergy believe that it is.
Regardless, this is a little child. It is not her fault who her parents are. Rejecting her is hurtful to an innocent. Jesus would not like that. he loves everyone regardless of their sexuality, or that of their parents. He never said anything about homosexuality, BTW.

 

[Cubby]

Personally I do not think the school rejecting her is hurtful to the innocent. I honestly have to ask myself, as a parent, why would I wish to enroll my child in a school which may have cirriculum (sp?) which may include teachings contrary to what is practiced in this couples home. To me, that is like throwing the child to the wolves so to speak because if school teaches what two mommies are doing is wrong how will mommy's choice to put the child there affect the child? It would be like myself choosing to enroll my Catholic child into any private school which does not believe in Jesus. What a confusing message I would be sending to my child!

I would imagine in this particular community there are various non public choices for schools. If not, the parents have the right to move to another community which offers more diversity in private education. Myself, all I have to do is pick up the Chicago Parent magazine to see more choices in private education than I can imagine..... including non religious private education such as Montessori style to British style education which follows the UK system of education. We have tons and tons of middle eastern private schools as well. So many many choices in bigger cities if one does not wish to utilize the public school system.

The school is not to blame for protecting the child from teachings which may make the child uncomfortable.

If education is important these two mommies need to find a community which offers education to their liking, not the other way around.

jmvho

 

[Nova]

Easier said than done, Cubby. Though there are a few "gay" schools (which are often quite accepting of the straight children of gay couples), they exist only in the largest cities such as New York. The gay minority isn't big enough and gay couples being allowed to have children isn't old enough for a gay school network to have been created in most areas.

I don't know the town where this couple lives, but since it's in Texas, it wouldn't surprise me if there is no liberal (in the educational sense of the word) "alternative" private school available. Or just as likely, the parents thought they had found the closest thing to a liberal school at the Episcopal church.

You make a lot of good points, but IMHO, the Catholic Church has a lot of housecleaning to do before members start complaining about criticisms of the Catholic community. Yes, there are millions, probably hundreds of millions, of Catholics who are wonderful, tolerant people; I suggest they work on the church hierarchy (both its teachings and its administrative policies) before they complain that their community is misjudged.

And for the record, I was taught a lot of things in school that my parents thought was hogwash. (As I mentioned in another thread, I began in segregated schools, something my parents and I, even at that age, found outrageous!) Didn't confuse or upset me, and didn't upset my parents either. It was just more fodder for what were often very lively dinner conversations.

As I said above, the posts in this thread defending the school or criticizing the parents all seem to see schooling as some form of brainwashing, rather than as a place where different ideas are explored. What a sad commentary on American education!

 

[Belinda]

Cubby - I am sorry if you were offended by my post. However, I feel the way I feel. As an ex-Catholic, I cannot find one redeeming quality about that church at this point in time. It is not only the child sex abuse scandal, although that is certainly a large part of it. It is their overall behavior in the world, their insistence that they make personal decisions for other people and the hierarchy that is just completely rotten through and through. They try to wield their power to affect politics and government. The Catholic Church has brought this on themselves.

I cannot and will not defend an institution that thinks it is a-okay to expose endless numbers of children to their resident pedophiles. You say it is only a small percentage (in another thread.) I have heard that worn out statement from every Catholic on the face of the earth. It's not a small percentage, because the entire hierarchy was involved in covering it up and further exposing children to a bunch of heathens masquerading as priests. That makes it a huge percentage. Further, I am not required to placate Catholic's who remain in the church. I very much believe in live and let live, but I am allowed to have my own opinion as well.

 

[Cubby]

Well, than you'll have to include myself into that group of of people you so very much dislike...

I will bow out of any further discussion because I don't wish to bash any group as a whole.
and further derailment of this thread which started about the choice of two parents who unable to put their child into a parochial school with an appx 6800 per year tuition for preschool and has derailed into a conversation about how each and every indivual member of the Catholic church is responsible for the decisions some made in involving scandels which have nothing to do with the subject for which this thread was titled.

 

[Belinda]

Cubby - Please don't misunderstand me. I have nothing against anyone who wishes to practice the Catholic faith. That is a choice that only each individual person can make. My comments are directly solely to 'the powers that be' within the church, not to the faithful themselves. I would never include you as a person to be disliked because of your faith. I don't work that way. I do have quite strong feelings toward the church, as do you. I think we can respect each others opinion without agreeing.

 

[Cubby]

Easier said than done, Cubby. Though there are a few "gay" schools (which are often quite accepting of the straight children of gay couples), they exist only in the largest cities such as New York. The gay minority isn't big enough and gay couples being allowed to have children isn't old enough for a gay school network to have been created in most areas.

I don't know the town where this couple lives, but since it's in Texas, it wouldn't surprise me if there is no liberal (in the educational sense of the word) "alternative" private school available. Or just as likely, the parents thought they had found the closest thing to a liberal school at the Episcopal church.

You make a lot of good points, but IMHO, the Catholic Church has a lot of housecleaning to do before members start complaining about criticisms of the Catholic community. Yes, there are millions, probably hundreds of millions, of Catholics who are wonderful, tolerant people; I suggest they work on the church hierarchy (both its teachings and its administrative policies) before they complain that their community is misjudged.

And for the record, I was taught a lot of things in school that my parents thought was hogwash. (As I mentioned in another thread, I began in segregated schools, something my parents and I, even at that age, found outrageous!) Didn't confuse or upset me, and didn't upset my parents either. It was just more fodder for what were often very lively dinner conversations.

As I said above, the posts in this thread defending the school or criticizing the parents all seem to see schooling as some form of brainwashing, rather than as a place where different ideas are explored. What a sad commentary on American education!

If anyone read the follow up stories the child was enrolled in a fine arts school within a week. She's 4. She won't even remember where her parents originally wanted her to start preschool in a few years.

If anyone read the 'testimonials' at the school website ( which denied the child) you would see there was a parent who pulled their 4 year old from Montessori school after two years of attendance because at 4 the child could not read! I can't imagine pulling a child out of school at age 4 because they can not read but some parents out there are like that........

Fine Arts school; pulled from Montessori school; this school has a tuition of 6800 or so per year for 4 yr old preschool. Clearly they have choices.

bowing out for good on this one now.

 

[Nova]

If anyone read the follow up stories the child was enrolled in a fine arts school within a week. She's 4. She won't even remember where her parents originally wanted her to start preschool in a few years.

If anyone read the 'testimonials' at the school website ( which denied the child) you would see there was a parent who pulled their 4 year old from Montessori school after two years of attendance because at 4 the child could not read! I can't imagine pulling a child out of school at age 4 because they can not read but some parents out there are like that........

Fine Arts school; pulled from Montessori school; this school has a tuition of 6800 or so per year for 4 yr old preschool. Clearly they have choices.

bowing out for good on this one now.

I wish you wouldn't bow out. You are obviously well informed on this subject (I've certainly learned from you) and you make a lot of great points on the topic here.

I even found the exchange between you and Belinda very informative. I realize Catholics have been struggling with their feelings about their faith and its earthly representation, many feel betrayed by the church hierarchy and yet many also feel their faith is more important than the misbehavior of church bureaucrats.

I will add that I know many wonderful Catholics, and whatever their personal beliefs, my being gay has not been an impediment to our friendships. (For research purposes, I even went on a pilgrimage to Medjugorje with the most devout group of Catholics I have ever met. They were not merely gracious to the two, non-Christian, gay writers in their midst, they went out of their way to befriend us and make us feel entirely a part of the group.)

The Church is also to be commended for its consistent stand against the death penalty and its many charitable works all over the world. No question about it.

And for what it's worth, I attend Mass myself from time to time and find it very moving. (I can't be a member or participate in Holy Communion, of course, but it seems I'm always welcome at services.)

That being said, being Catholic is a choice. And choosing to belong to any group means sharing responsibility for the group's actions, even when one personally opposes them. Since there is both good and bad within the Church, choosing to belong must be something of trade-off and, personally, I don't condemn anyone who chooses to remain affiliated.

But one can't deny the church hierarchy hasn't done the institution any favors of late. So before we conclude that people are "Catholic bashing" unfairly, we might also remember the institutional errors have been rather extreme.

That's all I was saying.

(ETA I also agree with you that there is almost no way a 4-year-old is going to be harmed by this incident, and attending the Fine Arts school you describe doesn't sound like a hardship. What matters to me in this discussion are the principles: both in terms of homophobic discrimination and, perhaps more importantly, what it says about some schools' idea of what constitutes "education.")

 

[Kimberlyd125]

Nova, I find this part of your post very interesting considering our recent conversations regarding the Muslim faith in another thread....

That being said, being Catholic is a choice. And choosing to belong to any group means sharing responsibility for the group's actions, even when one personally opposes them.

My question, why do you not feel the same way when people question Muslims? You could replace the word Catholic with the word Muslim in your own post and I don't think (from what you have said) you would agree with your own arguement.

JMO

 

[Belinda]

Well, than you'll have to include myself into that group of of people you so very much dislike...

I will bow out of any further discussion because I don't wish to bash any group as a whole.
and further derailment of this thread which started about the choice of two parents who unable to put their child into a parochial school with an appx 6800 per year tuition for preschool and has derailed into a conversation about how each and every indivual member of the Catholic church is responsible for the decisions some made in involving scandels which have nothing to do with the subject for which this thread was titled.

I'm removing my foot from my mouth as we speak.

 

[i.b.nora]

School turns away student because of parents' lesbian relationship

By JESSAMY BROWN
McClatchy Newspapers

"Foster (St. Vincent's School chaplain Randall Foster) said Jill Harrison had told school officials that the couple was divorcing and that both partners would participate in the daughter's schooling. But she did not indicate that it was a same-sex relationship before the pair showed up at parents night.

Jill Harrison said she didn't think it was necessary to disclose it.

"I've never been explicit. It's never been a problem. It's never been an issue. If it comes up in conversation, I'll answer, but I don't feel it is my job to tell people about my personal life," she said. "Had I known, in hindsight, I would never have attempted to enroll her in a school where they did not believe in our beliefs and our lifestyle.""

and

"Although the sign outside St. Vincent's School identifies itself as Episcopal, the clergy left the national Episcopal Church in 2007 and is now affiliated with the Anglican Church in North America, Foster said. The church was among several that left the Episcopal Church over issues including the ordination of women and support for same-sex unions."

and

"On Saturday, the Episcopal Diocese of Fort Worth issued a news release to clarify its relationship with the school, noting that Episcopal schools have nondiscriminatory admission policies. The diocese has contacted the family members to offer pastoral support and invited them to a Hurst, Texas, parish where they will be welcome, spokeswoman Katie Sherrod said.

"I have been in touch with Jill Harrison to apologize for the ordeal she, Tracy and Olivia have endured and for the fact that the word Episcopal was associated with this ordeal in any way," Sherrod said."

and

"Meanwhile, the Southwestern Association of Episcopal Schools, which accredited the school, has asked St. Vincent's to remove website references to its accreditation, which ends June 2011, and the school has agreed to do so, Foster said."

 

[Cubby]

I'm removing my foot from my mouth as we speak.

Me too. Let's get back to the topic for which the thread was started.

 

[Cubby]

Nova, to answer your question and get back on topic, which is a parenting topic.

First, as a parent I would have to weigh my choices and how each and every one of my choices as a parent affects my child. That not only includes choices for education but also choices for my partner as well as the neighborhood I chose to reside. In my world the child ALWAYS comes first. A parent integrates themself into the childs life not vice versa.

I think if this were only a preschool type environment the mothers relationship would not be an issue. Or at least I would like to.... Giving this individual situation consideration I would ask myself as a parent if I chose to enroll my child in a pre-k through 8th grade school

I as a parent, would like to incorporate my child into a diverse tolerant community - that I could afford -

Overall the majority of parents have no choice but to enroll their children in public school. The majority of people will choose a residence based on how well school district rates within the state.

Are we an integrated society? Not everywhere.
Do we make presumptions? Yep, all the time.

Which is why I immediately wanted to know about this couples particular situation and their choices within their community.

Hence looking at the schools site directly.

http://www.sves.org/tuition_schedule_2010-2011.pdf

http://www.sves.org/testimonials.html

looking around the site, the campus is beautiful. Very small class sizes.
Obviously a school of choice, but is this the only choice in an area with a poor choice of schools. Think of it in comparison to the Chicago Public schools which are pretty much known to be a train wreck.

The testimonials speak of other 'excellent' public schools, so was this really the only option? OR was their perhaps a better fit?

It sounds to me that perhaps the school was misrepresenting itself as an Episcipalian church when it is not and has broken away from those beliefs. Why as a parent the moms didn't learn that when reading through the school site I don't know.

Is it REALLY a matter of 'homophobia'? or is it a matter of the choices of schools in the area and if the area doesn't offer what they are looking for?

Personally I try to look at the individual situation.

Then on the other hand.... what if these were two mothers were a biological mom and a step mom who coparented succesfully and the childs bio father died? Both bio mom and step mom continued to share custody... Then we would have an entirely different situation which was not at all related to their sexual orientation. So we DO in fact have a situation of 'discrimination'. A situation, which for myself as a parent, I would have to ask myself if I wished to belong to a 'religious community' in which my child would be put in a position of shame if her mommies or daddies demonstrated affection. In which case, imo, it once again goes to the various conservative or more liberal choices within the Christian community and as a whole those choices do exist......

I hope that makes sense..... I'm in the midwest so definately a moderate.

hth