Lisa and the river

[RANCH]

BBM
Earlier in this thread a member posted a video of the quickest route to the river, which is less than a 2 minute drive, by my watch when I drove it myself. I don't think she walked, I think she drove the white Lincoln, or had a helper.
:moo:

I have a question. What makes you feel that she (DB?) didn't walk (with a deceased Lisa?) to the river but instead used the white Lincoln?

If a deceased Lisa was placed in the Lincoln for transportation to the river, wouldn't the HRD dogs used in this case have found and hit on that scent?

I'm not aware of any evidence of a helper, but I guess that almost anything could be possible.
JMO.

 

[KsStormy]

I have a question. What makes you feel that she (DB?) didn't walk (with a deceased Lisa?) to the river but instead used the white Lincoln?

If a deceased Lisa was placed in the Lincoln for transportation to the river, wouldn't the HRD dogs used in this case have found and hit on that scent?

I'm not aware of any evidence of a helper, but I guess that almost anything could be possible.
JMO.

It just seems more plausible... As far as an HRD hit, I still wonder if a body were wrapped tight, and in some kind of container, if it would be detectable if only in the car for Less Than TWO minutes. Would the scent have the time to seep out if say a paint bucket ( they were in the process of doing some remodeling as per pics of the house ) or a metal toolbox,etc?

 

[norest4thewicked]

It just seems more plausible... As far as an HRD hit, I still wonder if a body were wrapped tight, and in some kind of container, if it would be detectable if only in the car for Less Than TWO minutes. Would the scent have the time to seep out if say a paint bucket ( they were in the process of doing some remodeling as per pics of the house ) or a metal toolbox,etc?

This has always been my thought as well. Although I believe that DB COULD have walked, I think that it would have made more sense that she drove. Two minutes isn't a long period of time, and if no one saw her leave or come back, she would be home free. We never got a clear answer on whether a little package could have been wrapped over and over with say saran wrap or a garbage bag, sealed with tape, then wrapped again in a blanket and another layer of plastic, would leave a clear scent. The HRD experts gave conflicting stories about whether there would be decay on things that were touched by the same person doing the wrapping. I think that it could definitely be done by a person who was doing everything in one spot in the bedroom, where the cadavar dog hit. Just something that I believe is possible.

 

[RANCH]

It just seems more plausible... As far as an HRD hit, I still wonder if a body were wrapped tight, and in some kind of container, if it would be detectable if only in the car for Less Than TWO minutes. Would the scent have the time to seep out if say a paint bucket ( they were in the process of doing some remodeling as per pics of the house ) or a metal toolbox,etc?

This has always been my thought as well. Although I believe that DB COULD have walked, I think that it would have made more sense that she drove. Two minutes isn't a long period of time, and if no one saw her leave or come back, she would be home free. We never got a clear answer on whether a little package could have been wrapped over and over with say saran wrap or a garbage bag, sealed with tape, then wrapped again in a blanket and another layer of plastic, would leave a clear scent. The HRD experts gave conflicting stories about whether there would be decay on things that were touched by the same person doing the wrapping. I think that it could definitely be done by a person who was doing everything in one spot in the bedroom, where the cadavar dog hit. Just something that I believe is possible.

I guess that in theory it would be possible to "contain" a body in a totally sealed way so that no decomp scent was left in the car. A paint bucket, maybe, a toolbox, no, it's not airtight. If Lisa was put into a paint bucket and then transported in the car, the person doing so would have to make sure that no scent was transferred to themselves before putting her in the bucket. And if she was disposed of in the river, I would assume she would have been taken out of the bucket. Otherwise the bucket would have floated and been easily discovered. That would mean more exposure to decomp scent that could be transferred to the car.

Wrapping in multiple layers of plastic and tape as Norest suggests sounds better at trying to contain the decomp scent. But the same problem of scent transference at the beginning remains. And I would imagine that if the body was sealed up enough to prevent decomp scent from escaping, it would have air trapped inside from the beginning and decomp gases later on which would make the body float. If you unwrap the body so it wouldn't float, your back to getting the decomp scent on yourself and the car. Maybe you could try to weigh the body down somehow.

So while the car may have been used to transport a dead Lisa, I would suspect that HRD dogs would have "hit" on it if that was what happened.
JMO.

 

[KsStormy]

I guess that in theory it would be possible to "contain" a body in a totally sealed way so that no decomp scent was left in the car. A paint bucket, maybe, a toolbox, no, it's not airtight. If Lisa was put into a paint bucket and then transported in the car, the person doing so would have to make sure that no scent was transferred to themselves before putting her in the bucket. And if she was disposed of in the river, I would assume she would have been taken out of the bucket. Otherwise the bucket would have floated and been easily discovered. That would mean more exposure to decomp scent that could be transferred to the car.

Wrapping in multiple layers of plastic and tape as Norest suggests sounds better at trying to contain the decomp scent. But the same problem of scent transference at the beginning remains. And I would imagine that if the body was sealed up enough to prevent decomp scent from escaping, it would have air trapped inside from the beginning and decomp gases later on which would make the body float. If you unwrap the body so it wouldn't float, your back to getting the decomp scent on yourself and the car. Maybe you could try to weigh the body down somehow.

So while the car may have been used to transport a dead Lisa, I would suspect that HRD dogs would have "hit" on it if that was what happened.
JMO.

If you look at pics of that morning, her hair seems awfully neat for just getting up... I think she took the time to shower, & possibly the dumpster fire was set to burn her clothes...? As far as the body surfacing, I sure hope that with the drought, that it does, you never know. However it's a big, wide deep river & could be anywhere by now. I hope the Army Corps of Engineers are keeping an eye out, as well as fishermen in MO.

 

[RANCH]

If you look at pics of that morning, her hair seems awfully neat for just getting up... I think she took the time to shower, & possibly the dumpster fire was set to burn her clothes...? As far as the body surfacing, I sure hope that with the drought, that it does, you never know. However it's a big, wide deep river & could be anywhere by now. I hope the Army Corps of Engineers are keeping an eye out, as well as fishermen in MO.

Thanks for your reply KsStormy. I have a question about your post. I'm assuming that the showering and clothes disposal that you mention takes place after DB disposes of Lisa's body in the river. How would that effect my feeling that HRD dogs would get a "hit" in the car if Lisa's body was transported in the car to the river?

As for low water conditions due to drought, that may help in finding any remains, but after over nine months I don't think that any remains would be surfacing at this late date. I also hope that USACE and anyone else on the river, keep an eye out for any possible remains or clues.
JMO.

 

[iamnotagolem]

I would think a few rocks in the bottom of the bucket would suffice to weigh it down. Although with the soaring Missouri river, having it float downstream might have been the intent.

As far as transfer we know there was a hit on the floor in the parents room, maybe they just grabbed plastic and wrapped her up without touching her. Maybe they used gloves and disposed of them with Lisa. Possibly they disposed of the clothes they were wearing, too.

 

[RANCH]

I would think a few rocks in the bottom of the bucket would suffice to weigh it down. Although with the soaring Missouri river, having it float downstream might have been the intent.

As far as transfer we know there was a hit on the floor in the parents room, maybe they just grabbed plastic and wrapped her up without touching her. Maybe they used gloves and disposed of them with Lisa. Possibly they disposed of the clothes they were wearing, too.

You could be right iamnotagolem. But if Lisa's body was removed from the house and put in the Lincoln for transport, I feel that no matter what method used, they would have to be both very smart and very lucky that the HRD dogs didn't "hit" on that car. That's just my opinion of course.

 

[4Jacy]

You could be right iamnotagolem. But if Lisa's body was removed from the house and put in the Lincoln for transport, I feel that no matter what method used, they would have to be both very smart and very lucky that the HRD dogs didn't "hit" on that car. That's just my opinion of course.

I realize this is reaching but maybe PN drove the car and DB held the duffle bag out the window, or DB drove and PN held the bag out the window. It was late, dark and not very far to the river.

 

[RANCH]

I realize this is reaching but maybe PN drove the car and DB held the duffle bag out the window, or DB drove and PN held the bag out the window. It was late, dark and not very far to the river.

Your right. Holding a bag out the of a car with a dead body in it is reaching. It would make more sense that PN alone transported the body to the river. But why would he do that? And there's no evidence to support that idea.

Now Jersey could have done it. The phone call to MW and his criminal record ties him in to this case more than anything I've seen about PN.
JMO.

 

[4Jacy]

Your right. Holding a bag out the of a car with a dead body in it is reaching. It would make more sense that PN alone transported the body to the river. But why would he do that? And there's no evidence to support that idea.

Now Jersey could have done it. The phone call to MW and his criminal record ties him in to this case more than anything I've seen about PN.
JMO.

As I stated, I know it is reaching, but so is killing and disposing of your own baby. They were desparate and would have done anything to protect themselves.

I think PN would do anything for DB, since they were always so close and she helped raise him. I believe if Jersey were involved, we would know about it by now. :seeya:

 

[RANCH]

As I stated, I know it is reaching, but so is killing and disposing of your own baby. They were desparate and would have done anything to protect themselves.

I think PN would do anything for DB, since they were always so close and she helped raise him. I believe if Jersey were involved, we would know about it by now. :seeya:

I would say that the "holding a dead body out the window" as reaching. To say that a mother killing and disposing their dead child is not reaching to me. Sadly it happens too often.

I'm not sure why PN would do "anything" for his sister. I have three sisters that I'm very close to myself and I couldn't even imagine helping one of them throw a niece or nephew of mine in the river. Calling 911 for help would make more sense to me.
JMO.

 

[norest4thewicked]

I still go back to that night where someone called in to KCPD and reported someone throwing something off of a bridge. I really don't have the time to go back and search for that info, but it was discussed a lot on here. For someone to be calling PD to report something being thrown from one of the bridges, it would have had to be something significant - bigger than just a rock. That has always stuck with me.

 

[4Jacy]

I would say that the "holding a dead body out the window" as reaching. To say that a mother killing and disposing their dead child is not reaching to me. Sadly it happens too often.

I'm not sure why PN would do "anything" for his sister. I have three sisters that I'm very close to myself and I couldn't even imagine helping one of them throw a niece or nephew of mine in the river. Calling 911 for help would make more sense to me.
JMO.

Yes! But that is you and your sisters. This is a very different family, and as we all know, Baby Lisa is gone, and there is no proof of an intruder. My theory is crazy, I know, but every theory can count for something. Also, I'm not married to my theory, it's just another one in a mind that keeps churning for answers of what happened to that precious little baby.

 

[RANCH]

I still go back to that night where someone called in to KCPD and reported someone throwing something off of a bridge. I really don't have the time to go back and search for that info, but it was discussed a lot on here. For someone to be calling PD to report something being thrown from one of the bridges, it would have had to be something significant - bigger than just a rock. That has always stuck with me.

Yes...and thanks for the reminder. I got a somewhat sketchy report about scanner traffic reporting someone throwing something off a bridge. There is a paper company ad the address I was given and I called them and they had no idea what I was talking about.

I remember this post by Jim Spellman where he says that he didn't get anywhere with that report. Is this the same report that your talking about?

 

[RANCH]

Yes! But that is you and your sisters. This is a very different family, and as we all know, Baby Lisa is gone, and there is no proof of an intruder. My theory is crazy, I know, but every theory can count for something. Also, I'm not married to my theory, it's just another one in a mind that keeps churning for answers of what happened to that precious little baby.

Thanks for your reply 4Jacy. Your correct in saying that my family is different than Lisa's and I'm grateful that I can say that no one is missing from my family.

Yes Lisa is gone. As for no proof of an intruder, I can't say for sure that's an accurate statement. We don't know what LE has in that regard.

As for members voicing their theory's, no matter what they are, I'm all for it.

 

[KsStormy]

I think my biggest question for professionals who deal with these dogs, is the question of whether a dog could hit in a car when a body was in it for less than 2 minutes. What if there were no blood, such as a suffocation or drowning? We know there was a hit in the parents bedroom: I would wager that a body could have been there for MUCH longer than (less than 2 min) in a car... we do not know what items may have been hit on, that may have been removed.

Back to the river. IF there is a possibility that Lisa may have been placed there, what kind of things can be done to raise awareness to alert people to keep an eye out? Many, many bodies have been discovered by regular people. Indeed the MO State Trooper that was lost in the floodwaters a bit before Lisa, was found by highway workers, in spite of the huge effort put out by MO to locate him. He was found by accident, in the end.

 

[Whisperer]

May I ask why many are focused on the river? I recall it being mentioned by the Criminal Defense Attorneys. It is my opinion that they mentioned it to mislead. IIRC, it was brought up by them to explain the pings and divert the public from thinking the pings were most likely coming from inside or close to the house.

The attorneys stretched the pings "All the way to the river". Is that why people think Lisa is in the river? I don't see this happening at night...but then again, I am not familiar with that part of the country.

I see a man more likely to have done the disposal. If so, then perhaps the river may be considered but I don't see DB going there alone at night. It would be very easy to dispose in a dumpster if she acted alone.

 

[KsStormy]

May I ask why many are focused on the river?

My personal reason is because last year the river flooded, BIG TIME, and MO was not able to locate their own state trooper,lost in the floodwaters, in spite of MASSIVE searches, it was on the news almost daily here.
The river would be the most convenient, logical place to dispose of a body, as it is LESS THAN TWO FREAKING MINUTES AWAY, and had been flooding....
I am sorry if I sound snarky, but good grief, if you have never seen the Mighty Mo, then ... :banghead:

 

[indepmo]

Why does everyone here theorize that Lisa was deceased before leaving the house? What if she was injured from a fall that caused severe swelling but no bleeding, and in an attempt to cover up her negligence (intoxicated when an accident could took place) Lisa was removed from the home and passed before being disposed? The dog hit would make more sense next to moms bed if she was wearing clothing when Lisa was disposed of and that's where she undressed to pass out when she got home. JMO