Madeleine McCann General Discussion Thread No. 20

[colomom]

I would like to discuss the love/hate relationship the McCanns have with the country of Portugal. When they went on Holiday, they surely took time researching places to go with 3 toddlers. SURELY, they did an Internet search of the country, and the area to find out how child friendly it was. There is a giant planet called Earth that has many affordable, and safe family sunny beach areas...

They WANTED to go there, they chose to go there, they paid good money to go there, and admitted they felt safe there...

BUT NOW...it apparently is chocked full of paedophiles, gypsies, creeps, dodgy men, corrupt police, and apparently kidnappers. How could they not have known this prior to leaving if they bothered to research?

So why did they go there? of all places in the world? They have nothing but horrible things to say about it.

Maybe because.....

"The McCanns are believed to have stayed once before in Praia da Luz and had returned because they considered it a safe resort. According to a member of staff, the McCanns were so confident of safety that they left the french doors to their apartment unlocked when their children were alone last Thursday week."

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,21725163-2703,00.html

 

[ThoughtFox]

Actually people, the McCann's did party (sort of). There is a difference between say a dinner party and a New Year's Eve party but the McCanns did alot of socializing with friends and, strangely enough, they often went to see their friends at their houses rather than having them come to the villa. So it appears that they spent alot of time going visiting rather than having people come visit them (other than family). They also managed to squeeze in some sightseeing.

. . . I have also read reports that KM spent alot of time in local bars following Maddie's disappearance. Those reports are unsubstantiated and rumor but, nevertheless they are out there.

We can quibble over the meaning of these terms, partying and sightseeing, but the point is that many people find the McCann's behavior to be very different than what they think they might experience if they were in their shoes.

And remember the friend of theirs said?

http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/pages...ews.html?in_article_id=474656&in_page_id=1770

The group of nine were holidaying in Portugal and wanted to have a good time. As one of the doctors, Matthew Oldfield, was to recall: "We drank. So what! We were on holiday."

We can quibble over the semantics (the meaning of each individual word) but the "overall" meaning is that at the end of the day, these people were there to have a good time/party/drink.

As far as the clothes/jewelry/hair, for some of us who watched this unfold since last September, the first time I ever saw Kate on television after they were made arquidoes, I was impressed by how "together" she looked. I hadn't been watching her since the beginning, but as the days went by I noticed that every time they showed her she had on a new outfit. Presumably, those clothes didn't just walk into her closet - she had to go shopping to have that many clothes in a foreign country away from home.

I don't usually notice people's jewelry or hair, but I never saw her looking anything but immaculate.

 

[ThoughtFox]

I would like to discuss the love/hate relationship the McCanns have with the country of Portugal. When they went on Holiday, they surely took time researching places to go with 3 toddlers. SURELY, they did an Internet search of the country, and the area to find out how child friendly it was. There is a giant planet called Earth that has many affordable, and safe family sunny beach areas...

They WANTED to go there, they chose to go there, they paid good money to go there, and admitted they felt safe there...

BUT NOW...it apparently is chocked full of paedophiles, gypsies, creeps, dodgy men, corrupt police, and apparently kidnappers. How could they not have known this prior to leaving if they bothered to research?

So why did they go there? of all places in the world? They have nothing but horrible things to say about it.

I guess we are supposed to believe that they were misinformed.

It's like Humphrey Bogart in Casablanca when he tells the Inspector:

"I came here for the waters."
"We're in the desert."
"I was misinformed."

The McCanns:

"We came here because it was so safe, like our backgarden."
"This is a foreign country full of pedophiles with the keystone cops in charge."
"Whoops - we were misinformed and should have locked the door."




Also, there were those friends who urged them to go on this trip because they had stayed at Mark Warner before. And then there were those friends who "suggested" they leave all the kids alone at night.

It was peer pressure, you know. :crazy:

 

[colomom]

You know, I think they did research their trip and destination. They found that MW, PDL and Portugal has/had an excellent reputation for family friendly and family safe vacations.

The way they have allowed the media to bad-mouth this country is really irresponsible. Portugal went all out to help and support the McCanns and they often sang their praises.....before they became arguidos.

At that point they shut-up and let their mouthpiece do the talking, and you know how effective he has been (heavy sarcasm)

 

[colomom]

I guess we are supposed to believe that they were misinformed.

It's like Humphrey Bogart in Casablanca when he tells the Inspector:

"I came here for the waters."
"We're in the desert."
"I was misinformed."

The McCanns:

"We came here because it was so safe, like our backgarden."
"This is a foreign country full of pedophiles with the keystone cops in charge."
"Whoops - we were misinformed and should have locked the door."




Also, there were those friends who urged them to go on this trip because they had stayed at Mark Warner before. And then there were those friends who "suggested" they leave all the kids alone at night.

It was peer pressure, you know. :crazy:

Gotta love that peer pressure (heeheehee).

 

[Barnaby]

Do you have a RELIABLE source that says she bought new jewellry and had her hair highlighted? I havent seen that as a FACT anywhere

I am afraid that you will have to trawl through old articles for the information, I don't have the time but it has been posted before!

 

[Texana]

Yes, I remember reading about the jewelry for the papal visit, but it's been several weeks/a couple of months now. It's way back in the early articles or blogs.

Whether or not Gerry actually wrote the words in the blog, he approved them. (Like the political ads in the United States that now legally have to end in the words, "I'm Joe McCandidate, and I approve this message.")

Gerry approved those words on his blog, and honestly, having read his comments for months, and his general style of response, I have to tell you that they are either his words, or taken from his notes. They were not fabricated out of thin air and then published without his approval and knowledge.

Even if you believe that Maddie truly was abducted, you have to concede that their actions in the days after her disappearance were as self-centered and absorbed in their own selves, as their actions the day she went missing.

At least they are consistently self-centered people.

 

[Texana]

I can concede that Kate would not necessarily show signs of crying or looking grief-ravaged in photos.

But again, it was Kate who said herself after the first night "I sleep fine."

Not "well, the first night I didn't sleep at all, but I'm so exhausted from our efforts during the day I sleep fine at night" or "I really don't have any problem sleeping, I have to keep my strength up and so I try to make sure I sleep well" but a flat, almost defiant, "I sleep fine."

So of course she looks rested and can run as usual, etc. She sleeps fine.

Explain it as you like, but whatever the explanation you choose, Kate doesn't lie awake at night wondering where her child is or how she's being treated.

 

[Salem]

Okay guys - to follow up on a question Colomom asked a few posts back - what did the McCanns do to "leave no stone unturned" to find Maddie?

I am asking this seriously and sincerely and requesting there be no sarcasm or rebuttals until we have a good long laundry list of anything positive that can be verified by some kind of link or media information. We already have a good list of the negatives in the "I would believe them if not for....." thread.

For me, the truth of the matter is the McCanns appear to be well connected and I think some positive things happened in this search almost immediately. Whether these things happened in a "positive" light for the McCanns is debateable, but I do think there may be some lessons to be learned here that could potentially be used in future cases.

I'll start. I think the first thing they did was alert the media. We all know when looking for a missing person the sooner the media gets the news the better. I also know there are some negatives about this early alert, but please let's save that discussion for later.

The second thing they did was establish a "fund" to deal with all the contributions. Again, I know this fund is debateable, but I think that has to do with how they set the fund up and we can save that discussion for later also.

Okay - what else have they done to look under those stones?

Thanks,

Salem

 

[Texana]

Some reports that they were walking the beaches/streets calling Madeleine's name the first night.

They made a trip to Huelva and put up some posters (most businesses were closed due to holiday).

They made at least one trip to the shrine at Fatima, presumably to pray for Madeleine's return.

They had her picture blessed by the Pope.

They engaged in and helped arrange various media publicity events to keep Madeleine's name/face in the public view, such as the balloon launch and the pipers' concert.

There were some public appeals by celebrities in Britain for Maddie's return; I don't know in how many countries those appeals were televised.

What have I left out?

 

[colomom]

Okay guys - to follow up on a question Colomom asked a few posts back - what did the McCanns do to "leave no stone unturned" to find Maddie?

I am asking this seriously and sincerely and requesting there be no sarcasm or rebuttals until we have a good long laundry list of anything positive that can be verified by some kind of link or media information. We already have a good list of the negatives in the "I would believe them if not for....." thread.

For me, the truth of the matter is the McCanns appear to be well connected and I think some positive things happened in this search almost immediately. Whether these things happened in a "positive" light for the McCanns is debateable, but I do think there may be some lessons to be learned here that could potentially be used in future cases.

I'll start. I think the first thing they did was alert the media. We all know when looking for a missing person the sooner the media gets the news the better. I also know there are some negatives about this early alert, but please let's save that discussion for later.

The second thing they did was establish a "fund" to deal with all the contributions. Again, I know this fund is debateable, but I think that has to do with how they set the fund up and we can save that discussion for later also.

Okay - what else have they done to look under those stones?

Thanks,

Salem

Hi Salem (had to get that in )

They set-up a website....

I SWEAR that is NOT sarcastic....

 

[Barnaby]

I can concede that Kate would not necessarily show signs of crying or looking grief-ravaged in photos.

But again, it was Kate who said herself after the first night "I sleep fine."

Not "well, the first night I didn't sleep at all, but I'm so exhausted from our efforts during the day I sleep fine at night" or "I really don't have any problem sleeping, I have to keep my strength up and so I try to make sure I sleep well" but a flat, almost defiant, "I sleep fine."

So of course she looks rested and can run as usual, etc. She sleeps fine.

Explain it as you like, but whatever the explanation you choose, Kate doesn't lie awake at night wondering where her child is or how she's being treated.

How the heck could any mother sleep at all never mind fine thinking that her baby might be with pedophiles? Baffles me!
If I was in this position the only time I would sleep well would be if I was stuffed full of sleeping pills or heavy tranquilisers! Seriously have you ever tossed & turned all blooming night over a small problem? I sure have!

 

[txsvicki]

I can't imagine a mother even answering such a ridiculous question. Most people would get angry. Of course, her answer tells a lot about her.

 

[april4sky]

I didn't get a chance to comment on this before the last thread was locked. I do find it VERY odd that anyone could believe something reported in the news... It seems that we all pick and choose what we want to believe.

All this tells me is that PLE does not want the McCanns interviewing potential suspects or witnesses...which is understandable. It doesn't forbid them from doing a grid search of the area. It doesn't forbid then to leave no stone unturned. Which is what I meant by "SEARCHING" for Maddie (using volunteers on ATV's and horseback physically searching as I stated previously).

If that you insinuate is correct, they would have been arrested the day after Madeleine went missing when they where "walking hand in hand" calling Madeleine's name.

I couldn't agree with you more on the above bolded. And that choice is probably determined too for different reasons.

 

[april4sky]

***Warning...Graphic***
Are you talking about Leonor Cipiano? The mother who was having an incestuous relationship with her brother Joao? Who both sexually abused little Joana, with witnesses to prove she was assaulted, and large amounts of her blood found in their refrigerator? The one who confessed to the murder to her father, and the brother confessed to his attorney? The one who chopped up her daughter and put body parts into junk yard scrap cars that where then crushed and shipped to Spain for recycling?

Have you read the Cipriano trial files? They are available for anyone who is interested in reading what facts were, proved before the judge and jury. The Ciprianos were not convicted because the PJ forced a confession out of them. Confessions...even signed confessions, can be retracted at any point during a trial, and actually rendered invalid and useless. The Ciprianos were convicted because the confession that Mr Cipriano made and signed in front of his own lawyer, detailed the murder and dismemberment of his niece's body. The police then worked from these details backwards, searching for forensic evidence, (led by Joao himself) to corroborate the confession. Once they knew where to look and what to look for, according to Mr Cipriano's "instructions", they found the evidence that ultimately convicted the "couple". It was more than enough for a conviction, even without a body.

Any scum bag woman who is capable of doing what she did to her own daughter, is also capable of lying about police brutality...

Yes I was talking about Leonor Cipiano.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=461111&in_page_id=1770


The detective leading the hunt for Madeleine McCann has sensationally been charged over his conduct in another missing child case.

Goncalo Amaral, head of the regional Judicial Police, is one of five officers accused over the beating-up of a suspect during questioning.
They are said to have attacked Leonor Cipriano, whose nine-year-old daughter Joana vanished from the Algarve in 2004.

************
Take a close look at the picture of Leonor Cipiano after she was beaten while in police custody.
Would you trust Goncalo Amaral?

 

[april4sky]

I have to say that everyone is focussing too much on the McCanns appearance. How do you know what happens to her eyes when she cries - whether they puff up or not. Everyone is different and react differently.

I think that Gerry's blog has been a PR disaster and also probably not always written by him. The trivia about where they have been and what they have been doing make it seem like they are just enjoying themselves.

I think that people are filling up the void created by the lack of action with their impressions about the parents which count for nothing in the end. Who cares if JT is not as good looking as the others - she certainly responded to the wonders of make up for her TV appearances. But in the end too much of this whole thing has been about image. Image is irrelevant. They are not film stars.

I agree :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: . It's all too easy to turn everything they say and do, or even look like into something sinister. Even Kates pictures with her wearing simple summer tops. Its a good job she isn't caught wearing designer labels.

 

[Gatinho]

Yes I was talking about Leonor Cipiano.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=461111&in_page_id=1770


The detective leading the hunt for Madeleine McCann has sensationally been charged over his conduct in another missing child case.

Goncalo Amaral, head of the regional Judicial Police, is one of five officers accused over the beating-up of a suspect during questioning.
They are said to have attacked Leonor Cipriano, whose nine-year-old daughter Joana vanished from the Algarve in 2004.

************
Take a close look at the picture of Leonor Cipiano after she was beaten while in police custody.
Would you trust Goncalo Amaral?

Amaral is not accused of beating anyone up but of not properly investigating the accusations. Possibly covering them up. Again its all image. Amaral looks like a bit of a slob and takes long lunch-breaks. His dismissal followed him speaking to the media when he had been told not to and had nothing to do with the Cipriano case.

Lets get things straight. We don't know who caused the back eyes or why. She might have been attacked by other prisoners - that happens all the time. In any case it has no bearing on the McCann case. It is a distraction.

 

[april4sky]

Amaral is not accused of beating anyone up but of not properly investigating the accusations. Possibly covering them up. Again its all image. Amaral looks like a bit of a slob and takes long lunch-breaks. His dismissal followed him speaking to the media when he had been told not to and had nothing to do with the Cipriano case.

Lets get things straight. We don't know who caused the back eyes or why. She might have been attacked by other prisoners - that happens all the time. In any case it has no bearing on the McCann case. It is a distraction.

It was serious enough that he and others have been charged.
I am aware that this case is not the reason he was removed from Madeleine's case.
I don't believe its a distraction either but disturbing when you consider the way he has run this investigation.

 

[Gatinho]

It was serious enough that he and others have been charged.
I am aware that this case is not the reason he was removed from Madeleine's case.
I don't believe its a distraction either but disturbing when you consider the way he has run this investigation.

The PJ has faced a lot of criticism over the handling of this case. But I don't think all of it is justified. Failure to secure the apartment would be one justified complaint. However most of the comments have come from British ex-policemen who are not actually in possession of all the facts. Given that suspicion fell on the McCanns after the cadaver dogs and DNA were introduced by British police (and such resources were not available to the PJ) I would discount the McCanns own reaction 'were being framed' and so on, as panic.

The forensics are being done in the UK also, so you can't blame the PJ for asking questions based on this evidence. But you can blame the McCanns for refusing to answer and then running away to England. If they really want to be cleared then there is one simple way - go back to Portugal and volunteer to answer all questions - if there are simple easy explanations then they should have no fear - until they do this their actions are unjustified.

 

[Salem]

Some reports that they were walking the beaches/streets calling Madeleine's name the first night.

They made a trip to Huelva and put up some posters (most businesses were closed due to holiday).

They made at least one trip to the shrine at Fatima, presumably to pray for Madeleine's return.

They had her picture blessed by the Pope.

They engaged in and helped arrange various media publicity events to keep Madeleine's name/face in the public view, such as the balloon launch and the pipers' concert.

There were some public appeals by celebrities in Britain for Maddie's return; I don't know in how many countries those appeals were televised.

What have I left out?

And Colomom pointed out that they made a website.

My point in all this was to see if there was anything we might be able to use in future missing person cases. Anyway you slice this cake, the reality is that Maddie is in the news media EVERY DAY - even though she has been missing for almost 9 months. I think that must be some kind of record.......

The only unusual things I see are the visit to the Pope and the celebrities. I don't suppose we could get the Pope for other missing children unless they were Catholic - but maybe we could find a celebrity or two to become "spokespersons" for missing folks (kids and adults). Obviously that gets a lot of media attention and even magazine interviews.

I know this is slightly off-topic - sorry for my digression.

Salem