Madeleine McCann - Netflix documentary on this case

[fr brown]

I thought the same thing, however, I started thinking about the DNA and those places the dogs hit on did turn up DNA, just inconclusive results.

The poster is talking about Grime's dogs alerting in apartment 5A and the car rented by the McCanns 3 weeks after Madeleine's disappearance.

From Looking for Madeleine by Anthony Summers:

"Of dozens of other samples recovered from Apartment 5A and sent to the UK for analysis, Sample 3A was the only one found to be – possibly – from a member of the McCann family. All the rest were either ‘too complex for a meaningful interpretation’, ‘too meagre’, ‘incomplete’, or (in one case) identifiable with the detective who lifted the sample. In the few instances where [John] Lowe noted a ‘mixed’ or ‘low-level’ DNA result, the scientist’s view was that there were ‘no conclusive indications that justify the theory that any member of the McCann family had contributed DNA to [the] result'.

....Then there was the Renault car the McCanns had hired three weeks after their daughter’s disappearance and the sample – numbered 10(2) by the lab – that had been recovered from its boot....In his final report, which again addressed Sample 10(2), Lowe found that the sample ‘appeared to be from at least three persons....'In my opinion, that result is too complex for a meaningful interpretation.’ The laboratory findings did not reflect any fluid identifiable as blood having been recovered from the car. As to hair retrieved from the Renault – and compared to hairs removed from Madeleine’s hairbrush – Lowe’s colleague Andrew Palmer reported that it ‘was not possible for me to determine if, or if not, these could have been from Madeleine McCann’. Of the nail fragments found in the car, one turned out to have been Gerry’s and another Kate’s. Finally, there was the Budget electronic ignition key and key ring removed from the map pocket on the inside of the driver’s door of the rental car. Using the Low Copy Number test, Lowe noted it as having ‘an incomplete low-level DNA profile that matched corresponding components in the profile of Gerald McCann’. Not a revelation – since Madeleine’s father had driven the car for many weeks."

 

[justdesserts29]

I have a theory on the sniffer dogs Eddie and Keela. I posted this theory elsewhere, but I think that a possible explanation for the sniffer dog alerts (specifically, Eddie) could be that the perp had cadaver smell or cremains or something on his gloves, clothes, and/or shoes from a previous murder crime or crimes. Maybe he wore the same clothes each time he carried out his attacks, or his lair had trace smells of cadaver that stuck to his clothes. IMO.

The evidence:
Eddie, the cadaver sniffing dog, would give the same alert if he smelled blood or cadaver smell. Keela, the blood sniffing dog, only alerted to blood. That's why they used both dogs. See P.J. POLICE FILES: EDDIE & KEELA REPORT

The most interesting alerts, to me, are the ones where Eddie alerted, but Keela did not. This suggests Eddie was smelling cadaver smell. Of particular note, is Cuddle Cat. Eddie alerted to Cuddle Cat, but Keela did not. This says to me, Eddie did smell cadaver, but not blood. IMO, the perp, with cadaver smell or cremains on his gloves, touched Cuddle Cat when he abducted Madeleine.

Both dogs alerted to the rental car and the rental car key. This suggests blood (although it could have been blood + cadaver, but wouldn't have been cadaver smell alone). I think Cadaver is unlikely however, because the car was rented three weeks after MM's abduction. Similar with the alerts to behind the couch in 5A - both dogs alerted there, and tests on the samples were inconclusive. This suggests the smell behind the couch was blood, not cadaver and that the perp probably didn't do anything behind the couch. The blood could have been there from some other occupants.

Other alerts by Eddie but not Keela (suggesting cadaver smell but not blood): A cabinet in 5A, then later one of KM's shirts, and one of her son's shirts. This suggests the perp rummaged through their things, or, perhaps like in a similar attack, wore laundry on his feet when he walked around the apartment in that incident (Looking for Madeleine, by Anthony Summers). Finally, Eddie alerted to outside of the apartment in the garden, just outside the GM's and KM's window. The perp could have stood out there. IMO.

It's important to remember, these dogs were only trained to alert to cadaver and/or blood (Eddie) or just blood (Keela). They weren't looking specifically for Madeleine or matching the source of the smell (nor were they trained to do that). IMO, the scant blood found in apartment 5A and the scant blood in the rental car/on the car key could have come from completely different sources and totally different times. You need additional evidence to figure out the source of those blood samples, and the investigators didn't find anything definitively showing Madeleine was the source.

 

[fr brown]

I have a theory on the sniffer dogs Eddie and Keela. I posted this theory elsewhere, but I think that a possible explanation for the sniffer dog alerts (specifically, Eddie) could be that the perp had cadaver smell or cremains or something on his gloves, clothes, and/or shoes from a previous murder crime or crimes. Maybe he wore the same clothes each time he carried out his attacks, or his lair had trace smells of cadaver that stuck to his clothes. IMO.

The evidence:
Eddie, the cadaver sniffing dog, would give the same alert if he smelled blood or cadaver smell. Keela, the blood sniffing dog, only alerted to blood. That's why they used both dogs. See P.J. POLICE FILES: EDDIE & KEELA REPORT

The most interesting alerts, to me, are the ones where Eddie alerted, but Keela did not. This suggests Eddie was smelling cadaver smell. Of particular note, is Cuddle Cat. Eddie alerted to Cuddle Cat, but Keela did not. This says to me, Eddie did smell cadaver, but not blood. IMO, the perp, with cadaver smell or cremains on his gloves, touched Cuddle Cat when he abducted Madeleine.

Both dogs alerted to the rental car and the rental car key. This suggests blood (although it could have been blood + cadaver, but wouldn't have been cadaver smell alone). I think Cadaver is unlikely however, because the car was rented three weeks after MM's abduction. Similar with the alerts to behind the couch in 5A - both dogs alerted there, and tests on the samples were inconclusive. This suggests the smell behind the couch was blood, not cadaver and that the perp probably didn't do anything behind the couch. The blood could have been there from some other occupants.

Other alerts by Eddie but not Keela (suggesting cadaver smell but not blood): A cabinet in 5A, then later one of KM's shirts, and one of her son's shirts. This suggests the perp rummaged through their things, or, perhaps like in a similar attack, wore laundry on his feet when he walked around the apartment in that incident (Looking for Madeleine, by Anthony Summers). Finally, Eddie alerted to outside of the apartment in the garden, just outside the GM's and KM's window. The perp could have stood out there. IMO.

It's important to remember, these dogs were only trained to alert to cadaver and/or blood (Eddie) or just blood (Keela). They weren't looking specifically for Madeleine or matching the source of the smell (nor were they trained to do that). IMO, the scant blood found in apartment 5A and the scant blood in the rental car/on the car key could have come from completely different sources and totally different times. You need additional evidence to figure out the source of those blood samples, and the investigators didn't find anything definitively showing Madeleine was the source.

I noticed that Grime was seen clutching Cuddle Cat in his hand. Whatever scent he had on his hand, including his own, was transferred to the toy whenever he touched it.

I think it's important to remember that the dog wants to give the result that reinforces his relationship with his handler. The handler wants...what? Rigorous, blind, outside testing to certify is key.

I have some thoughts about this earlier in the thread.

 

[fr brown]

The poster is talking about Grime's dogs alerting in apartment 5A and the car rented by the McCanns 3 weeks after Madeleine's disappearance.

From Looking for Madeleine by Anthony Summers:

"Of dozens of other samples recovered from Apartment 5A and sent to the UK for analysis, Sample 3A was the only one found to be – possibly – from a member of the McCann family. All the rest were either ‘too complex for a meaningful interpretation’, ‘too meagre’, ‘incomplete’, or (in one case) identifiable with the detective who lifted the sample. In the few instances where [John] Lowe noted a ‘mixed’ or ‘low-level’ DNA result, the scientist’s view was that there were ‘no conclusive indications that justify the theory that any member of the McCann family had contributed DNA to [the] result'.

....Then there was the Renault car the McCanns had hired three weeks after their daughter’s disappearance and the sample – numbered 10(2) by the lab – that had been recovered from its boot....In his final report, which again addressed Sample 10(2), Lowe found that the sample ‘appeared to be from at least three persons....'In my opinion, that result is too complex for a meaningful interpretation.’ The laboratory findings did not reflect any fluid identifiable as blood having been recovered from the car. As to hair retrieved from the Renault – and compared to hairs removed from Madeleine’s hairbrush – Lowe’s colleague Andrew Palmer reported that it ‘was not possible for me to determine if, or if not, these could have been from Madeleine McCann’. Of the nail fragments found in the car, one turned out to have been Gerry’s and another Kate’s. Finally, there was the Budget electronic ignition key and key ring removed from the map pocket on the inside of the driver’s door of the rental car. Using the Low Copy Number test, Lowe noted it as having ‘an incomplete low-level DNA profile that matched corresponding components in the profile of Gerald McCann’. Not a revelation – since Madeleine’s father had driven the car for many weeks."

From an interesting article on reason about an ill-trained dog:

"As a drug detection dog, Karma kept his nose down and treated every suspect the same. Public records show that from the time he arrived in Republic in January 2018 until his handler took a leave of absence to campaign for public office in 2020, Karma gave an 'alert' indicating the presence of drugs 100 percent of the time during roadside sniffs outside vehicles....The real confirmation of the dog's detective skills would have come from walking around a drug-free vehicle and not giving a trained final response. Karma failed this test every time."

 

[fr brown]

Also re the video of the cadaver dogs searching: in my experience, cadaver dog handlers try to avoid transferring "live" scent (especially the handler's) to sources, and, of course, dead scent to controls.

The face is not shown, but it might be Grime who grabs (with a gloved hand) Cuddle Cat after the dog finds it behind a cabinet door. Cuddle Cat had obviously been placed there so it would be found without the aid of a visual, but it may have contained plenty of handler or handler associate scent. Grime also pretty lavishly touches surfaces in Madeleine's bedroom he wants Eddie to check.

I agree with others that Grime drives home his interest in the McCann car, the one festooned with Madeleine posters. It's OK, imo, to get the dog to recheck, but once the dog leaves, move on to the next vehicle and come back later, treat each car the same. Don't telegraph your investment in having the dog find something.

If you're looking for a big, ripe source, cues and contaminants are less important, I suppose. But that wasn't the case here.

My $.02

Grime, Eddie (and Keela) are included in one episode of "Send in the Dogs UK." For the camera, Grime places an open jar of dirt with skeletized remains in the mouth of a small cave on a beach. He carries the jar in his bare hand. Grime doesn't seem to have to search for a good place to hide the jar. I suspect he and Eddie are familiar with this particular cave. Eddie finds the jar readily. Everybody is impressed.

What should have happened is that the camera crew should have chosen the location, somewhere where Eddie does not train. Grime should not know where the source is in the search area. Ideally someone that Eddie has had (and will have) no contact with should place the jar. In fact, supply a new jar, one that doesn't have live scent all over it. Give the jar its own container so it's not touched even with a glove. It would be nice to use a different source, one that Eddie doesn't train on all the time. Place a couple of half-hidden dead-scentless jars in the search area. (Don't worry about getting live human scent on these. In fact, put some on.) Put the jar with the source in it somewhere that's not the only cave. Don't even tell the camera crew where the source is. When Eddie finds the right jar, everybody will know. This would be a start.

Later Grime says that blood and human remains were located in that infamous children's home. That turned out not to be the case, as I understand it.

 

[fr brown]

In Madeleine by Kate McCann, McCann writes: "In footage of the apartment next door to ours, one of the dogs began to root in the corner of a room near a piece of furniture. PC Grime summoned the dog and they left the flat."

The dog should be laser-focused on his/her job. The dogs are styled as extraordinary performers so let's assume he's focused on his job and trying to improve his perception of the scent. Then Grime calls him off and they leave??

I'd like to see the video of this search. I can only find video of searching the McCanns' apartment

 

[fr brown]

In Send in the Dogs UK a bare-handed Grime jams a piece of gauze with blood on it at dog-eye height in a wall. Keela, of course, finds it and alerts. What I'd like to see is Keela pass over, as if it were nothing, a piece of Grime-handled gauze with no blood on it placed at dog-eye height.

 

[enquirer6]

Cadaver dogs don't lie, but can they make mistakes?

Thread very old, I know. But more pertinently, any dog can be manipulated by unscrupulous humans.

Emphatically the fate to befall the hapless Eddie at Praia da Luz; then, again, at Haut de la Garenne. Those two deployments made Grime, net of all expenses, about £150K.

And contributed precisely zilch to the cause of law-enforcement, apprehending perpetrators and bringing justice to victims.

 

[enquirer6]

The poster is talking about Grime's dogs alerting in apartment 5A and the car rented by the McCanns 3 weeks after Madeleine's disappearance.

From Looking for Madeleine by Anthony Summers:

"Of dozens of other samples recovered from Apartment 5A and sent to the UK for analysis, Sample 3A was the only one found to be – possibly – from a member of the McCann family. All the rest were either ‘too complex for a meaningful interpretation’, ‘too meagre’, ‘incomplete’, or (in one case) identifiable with the detective who lifted the sample. In the few instances where [John] Lowe noted a ‘mixed’ or ‘low-level’ DNA result, the scientist’s view was that there were ‘no conclusive indications that justify the theory that any member of the McCann family had contributed DNA to [the] result'.

....Then there was the Renault car the McCanns had hired three weeks after their daughter’s disappearance and the sample – numbered 10(2) by the lab – that had been recovered from its boot....In his final report, which again addressed Sample 10(2), Lowe found that the sample ‘appeared to be from at least three persons....'In my opinion, that result is too complex for a meaningful interpretation.’ The laboratory findings did not reflect any fluid identifiable as blood having been recovered from the car. As to hair retrieved from the Renault – and compared to hairs removed from Madeleine’s hairbrush – Lowe’s colleague Andrew Palmer reported that it ‘was not possible for me to determine if, or if not, these could have been from Madeleine McCann’. Of the nail fragments found in the car, one turned out to have been Gerry’s and another Kate’s. Finally, there was the Budget electronic ignition key and key ring removed from the map pocket on the inside of the driver’s door of the rental car. Using the Low Copy Number test, Lowe noted it as having ‘an incomplete low-level DNA profile that matched corresponding components in the profile of Gerald McCann’. Not a revelation – since Madeleine’s father had driven the car for many weeks."

Excellent post, in every last detail.

Something worth adding to your final point, though:

Finally, there was the Budget electronic ignition key and key ring removed from the map pocket on the inside of the driver’s door of the rental car. Using the Low Copy Number test, Lowe noted it as having ‘an incomplete low-level DNA profile that matched corresponding components in the profile of Gerald McCann’. Not a revelation – since Madeleine’s father had driven the car for many weeks."

They were looking for Madeleine's blood

Why on the ignition key of a vehicle hired 3 weeks after Madeleine had vanished?

If you look at the set of proposed searches Mark Harrison, part of whose job was supposed to have been to determine the schedule of searches, had drawn up, you will find he made no mention of:

The McCanns' rented villa, unsurprisingly, as Madeleine never lived there

The McCanns' rented hire car, unsurprisingly as they hired it 3 weeks after Madeleine vanished.

Clothing, unsurprisingly,

in part because none was seized until fully 3 months after the crime

in part because the dog-handler never had, at least a cadaver dog, trained to inspect clothing

In part because uncorroborated cadaver-dog alerts are inadmissible as 'evidence' in English courts (and Grime kicked up a fearful stink at being leaned on to say so)

In part because, even IF a minute trace of Madeleine's blood had been found on any clothing, that would not have been incriminating.

Madeleine sat on Mummy's knee, or Daddy's knee, has a nose bleed or other minor abrasion. Blood transfers to clothing.

Of course, any trace of blood would have had to be minute, since blood visible to the naked human eye wouldn't have required a dog to find it.

ETA: For the answers to all these questions, you need to look to yet a third springer spaniel, Morse, the continent of America and an investigation into the disappearance of a second little girl, Bianca Jones.

 

[enquirer6]

Here, the solution to the many of the conundrums posed above: the court citation of the Bianca Jones investigation, where D'Andre Lane was convicted of his daughter's murder and sentenced to life imprisonment.

FindLaw's Court of Appeals of Michigan case and opinions.

FindLaw's searchable database of Court of Appeals of Michigan decisions since

caselaw.findlaw.com

According to Grime, on December 4, 2011, he took his dogs to an enclosed warehouse that contained 31 vehicles. Grime was told that Bianca was in one of the vehicles at the time of the carjacking, but was not told which vehicle was involved. Morse alerted Grime to the presence of the odor of decomposition in the back seat and trunk of a silver Grand Marquis. Keela later screened the car and did not alert Grime to the presence of human blood.

Grime testified that, after the vehicle screening, he took the dogs to an administrative building to screen the items removed from Dungey's car. Grime did not know where the objects were located in the building, and the objects had been placed in a room filled with “all sorts of things.” Morse alerted Grime to the odor of decomposition in Bianca's car seat and a bag containing Bianca's blanket. Grime later took the dogs to Dungey's house. Morse alerted him to the odor of decomposition in a room that contained bunk beds and a closet without a door.

B. EVIDENTIARY HEARING

Before trial, Lane moved to exclude the cadaver dog evidence, contending in part that it was not admissible under MRE 702. At the evidentiary hearing, Stockham testified that he had started a science-based victim recovery dog program for the FBI. The program's protocol called for regular single-and double-blind testing of the dogs throughout their working lives. Stockham's program had three full-time dog handlers in its program, including Grime.

Stockham testified that Grime was a recognized expert in the field of animal behavior in the United Kingdom who worked with and trained Morse and Keela. Stockham tested Grime and Morse in 2011. On one occasion, Morse gave a “nonproductive response” when he “barked in a blank room.” No samples were in the room, but Stockham could not exclude the possibility that trace matter was there.

The parallels with Praia da Luz are uncanny. Stuff, tested in one place, taken to another, and tested a second time.

In Praia da Luz, it was clothing, ignored by both dogs in the McCanns' rented villa, bundled into bog-standard cardboard boxes and taken a few kilometres to a gym in Lagos, and there laid out on the floor for both dogs to trample over and one, to bark and pick certain items up in his mouth.

In his PdL rogatory interview, Grime was questioned about cross-contamination and confirmed, as is true, the cross-contamination of a death scent is immediate.

Why, then, did Grime ignore those principles in the way clothing was taken from villa to gym?

Mark Harrison, part of whose job was supposed to have been to determine the schedule of dog-searches, says, literally, not one word about clothing.

Also, in Harrison's retrospective summary of all searches, he is careful to acknowledge Grime and his dogs ONLY in those inspections he, Harrison, recommended in advance. No mention of: the Renault Scenic, clothing; the McCanns' rented villa, where Madeleine never lived.

 

[enquirer6]

Here, the solution to the many of the conundrums posed above: the court citation of the Bianca Jones investigation, where D'Andre Lane was convicted of his daughter's murder and sentenced to life imprisonment.

FindLaw's Court of Appeals of Michigan case and opinions.

FindLaw's searchable database of Court of Appeals of Michigan decisions since

caselaw.findlaw.com

According to Grime, on December 4, 2011, he took his dogs to an enclosed warehouse that contained 31 vehicles. Grime was told that Bianca was in one of the vehicles at the time of the carjacking, but was not told which vehicle was involved. Morse alerted Grime to the presence of the odor of decomposition in the back seat and trunk of a silver Grand Marquis. Keela later screened the car and did not alert Grime to the presence of human blood.

Grime testified that, after the vehicle screening, he took the dogs to an administrative building to screen the items removed from Dungey's car. Grime did not know where the objects were located in the building, and the objects had been placed in a room filled with “all sorts of things.” Morse alerted Grime to the odor of decomposition in Bianca's car seat and a bag containing Bianca's blanket. Grime later took the dogs to Dungey's house. Morse alerted him to the odor of decomposition in a room that contained bunk beds and a closet without a door.

B. EVIDENTIARY HEARING

Before trial, Lane moved to exclude the cadaver dog evidence, contending in part that it was not admissible under MRE 702. At the evidentiary hearing, Stockham testified that he had started a science-based victim recovery dog program for the FBI. The program's protocol called for regular single-and double-blind testing of the dogs throughout their working lives. Stockham's program had three full-time dog handlers in its program, including Grime.

Stockham testified that Grime was a recognized expert in the field of animal behavior in the United Kingdom who worked with and trained Morse and Keela. Stockham tested Grime and Morse in 2011. On one occasion, Morse gave a “nonproductive response” when he “barked in a blank room.” No samples were in the room, but Stockham could not exclude the possibility that trace matter was there.

The parallels with Praia da Luz are uncanny. Stuff, tested in one place, taken to another, and tested a second time.

In Praia da Luz, it was clothing, ignored by both dogs in the McCanns' rented villa, bundled into bog-standard cardboard boxes and taken a few kilometres to a gym in Lagos, and there laid out on the floor for both dogs to trample over and one, to bark and pick certain items up in his mouth.

In his PdL rogatory interview, Grime was questioned about cross-contamination and confirmed, as is true, the cross-contamination of a death scent is immediate.

Why, then, did Grime ignore those principles in the way clothing was taken from villa to gym?

Mark Harrison, part of whose job was supposed to have been to determine the schedule of dog-searches, says, literally, not one word about clothing.

Also, in Harrison's retrospective summary of all searches, he is careful to acknowledge Grime and his dogs ONLY in those inspections he, Harrison, recommended in advance. No mention of: the Renault Scenic, clothing; the McCanns' rented villa, where Madeleine never lived.

Mark Harrison's retrospective summary of all dog-searches:

On 31-07-07 the PJ conducted canine searches with a search warrant at apartments in Praia da Luz that had been previously occupied by the McCanns and their friends.​

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On 01-08-07 the PJ and GNR assisted by a canine, conducted searches on the eastern beach and wasteland in Praia da Luz.​

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On 02-08-07 the PJ conducted a search warrant at a villa in Praia da Luz currently occupied by the McCann family.​

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Later the same day PJ officers conducted a screening procedure involving items removed from the McCann’s villa.​

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On 03-08-07 PJ and GNR officers were given instruction based on translated extracts from NPIA doctrine on search management and procedures. This focused on search procedures relating to buildings and vehicles.​

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On 04-08-07 and 05-08-07 a search warrant was executed at the villa and gardens belonging to the PJ suspect Robert Murat. This search involved both PJ and GNR personnel supported by civil defence, geophysical equipment operators and a canine handler.​

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On 06-08-07 ten vehicles were searched associated to the enquiry.​

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On 07-08-07 the western beach and remaining wasteland areas were searched using canine and GNR personnel.​

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On 08-08-07 the drains around the apartment block where Madeleine McCann disappeared from were subject to a visual inspection by PJ officers.​

From the above, note carefully where Harrison acknowledges Grime and his dogs: only in those places he (Harrison) first recommended: the holiday apartments, the Murats' villa, vehciles of Robert Murat's ONLY, areas in and around Pdl. That's it.