Malaysia airlines plane may have crashed 239 people on board #22

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Is this scrambling info new? First I have heard of it! Oh, just a last minute thing they 'forgot' to mention'?! With this admission, is it possible that Malaysia shot it down and is behind this whole incident?

And now it's the captain's voice? Four weeks later and no official determination! Why has the USA not been allowed to identify this voice? This is supposing that Malaysia has not permitted us to do it. Why? :banghead:

My imagination is running wild with this one. Could it possibly be that when the plane made the U-turn and headed back across land that it was thought that the plane was on a suicide mission like on 9/11 and the jets took it down? At this point I can believe or not believe absolutely anything, KWIM?
 
My imagination is running wild with this one. Could it possibly be that when the plane made the U-turn and headed back across land that it was thought that the plane was on a suicide mission like on 9/11 and the jets took it down? At this point I can believe or not believe absolutely anything, KWIM?

I thought about that also!

One of the Malaysian papers reporting the story of the Captain being the voice on the recording said that would mean the co-pilot was flying?
 
I thought about that also!

One of the Malaysian papers reporting the story of the Captain being the voice on the recording said that would mean the co-pilot was flying?

This is something I have considered from the beginning. But, how do we explain why the plane was off course to begin with. What's up with that? jmo
 
I thought about that also!

One of the Malaysian papers reporting the story of the Captain being the voice on the recording said that would mean the co-pilot was flying?

I think the Malay gov't is slowly and subliminally saying that one of these two men is responsible for the deliberate act. JMO but that is what it seems. So when they, finally, release it..everyone is prepared.

Or...I am completely wrong. :banghead:
 
This is something I have considered from the beginning. But, how do we explain why the plane was off course to begin with. What's up with that? jmo

I've also kept open the theory of it possibly being shot down and they dont want to admit to a bad mistake. The supposed witness in a boat seeing a fire ball has stuck with me.

Im not even convinced of the turn to the left at this point. Werent they looking in the other ocean at first which was on the direct path to Beijing.

It was only after they struggled to find any wreckage in that first ocean that somewhere along the lines people looked at radar and found blips that seemed to show an unknown plane going left. Just not sure how reliable all that data was.

About the only thing certain is all the information has constantly changed since the first days.

ETA: I could have sworn I remember very early on that one of the Malaysia officials said he ordered boats out the very morning after it disappeared. If they shot it down and ordered boats out, I suppose its possible they could have picked up any debri and hid the fact it was shot down.
 
I've had a really lovely day, watching the Emirates airbus a380 land for the first time ever in Scotland... It was amazing, have posted video to facebook if anyone would like to see it?

MH370 was never far from my mind...

Have come here this evening to catch up & it seems i've missed lots today?

Has it been confirmed the captain was last to speak?
Have they narrowed down the ping area?
Whats this about scrambled military jets?

I have always felt that the plane landed somewhere, and northern corridor has been blanked for some reason... Is it felt that the pings are definately our plane? Or will it change again tomorrow...?
 
Look on the bright side, at least their consistent by denying though, you got to give them that.

somebody (looking at you cnn) is taking unofficial sources and saying "malaysia reports" when it is not what the investigators said at all.

Such as this one. We would have known by now if they scrambled
 
I've also kept open the theory of it possibly being shot down and they dont want to admit to a bad mistake. The supposed witness in a boat seeing a fire ball has stuck with me.

Im not even convinced of the turn to the left at this point. Werent they looking in the other ocean at first which was on the direct path to Beijing.

It was only after they struggled to find any wreckage in that first ocean that somewhere along the lines people looked at radar and found blips that seemed to show an unknown plane going left. Just not sure how reliable all that data was.

About the only thing certain is all the information has constantly changed since the first days.

ETA: I could have sworn I remember very early on that one of the Malaysia officials said he ordered boats out the very morning after it disappeared. If they shot it down and ordered boats out, I suppose its possible they could have picked up any debri and hid the fact it was shot down.

You've just put into words what i've been wondering for days... Was the plane shot down & debris deposited in the deepest darkest ocean, so as never to be found?

I'm torn between that, and the thought it may have landed somewhere...

What a brass neck if it had been shot down by a country who had many of their passengers on it...
 
Joint Agency Coordination Centre

Media Release
10 April 2014—pm

The Chief Coordinator of the Joint Agency Coordination Centre, Air Chief Marshal Angus Houston (Ret'd), has confirmed that whilst conducting an acoustic search this afternoon a RAAF AP-3C Orion aircraft has detected a possible signal in the vicinity of the Australian Defence Vessel Ocean Shield.

http://www.jacc.gov.au/media/releases/2014/april/mr016.aspx
 
I think the Malay gov't is slowly and subliminally saying that one of these two men is responsible for the deliberate act. JMO but that is what it seems. So when they, finally, release it..everyone is prepared.

Or...I am completely wrong. :banghead:

It seems that way. I still think this was a deliberate act and that seems to be the consensus, although I still think it could have been someone else on the plane. Possibly someone even not on the flight list.
 
somebody (looking at you cnn) is taking unofficial sources and saying "malaysia reports" when it is not what the investigators said at all.

Such as this one. We would have known by now if they scrambled

[The sources also told CNN that Malaysian air force search aircraft were scrambled about 8 a.m. March 8 to the South China Sea and the Strait of Malacca, soon after Malaysia Airlines reported that its plane was missing. The aircraft took off before authorities corroborated data indicating that the plane turned back westward, a senior Malaysian government official told CNN.

But the air force did not inform the Department of Civil Aviation or search and rescue operations until three days later, March 11, a source involved in the investigation told CNN.

Later Thursday, communications officials from Malaysia's Transportation Ministry denied that jets had scrambled shortly after the plane went missing, calling that claim a "false allegation."]

http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/10/world/asia/malaysia-airlines-plane/

They denied it on Twitter.
 
Is this scrambling info new? First I have heard of it! Oh, just a last minute thing they 'forgot' to mention'?! With this admission, is it possible that Malaysia shot it down and is behind this whole incident?

...

Their words are making me laugh .. doesn't "scramble" mean "get out there in a hurry? 6 hours later isn't exactly house-on-fire speed.
 
My imagination is running wild with this one. Could it possibly be that when the plane made the U-turn and headed back across land that it was thought that the plane was on a suicide mission like on 9/11 and the jets took it down? At this point I can believe or not believe absolutely anything, KWIM?

If they took it down it wouldn't be pinging so far south off of Australia, methinks JMO
 
Just saw on CNN that Malaysia is denying jets were scrambled. Saying that report is false. wth :banghead:

Yeah, that takes me back to the early days of this when they denied the plane turned left: "we haven't heard that".
 
Angus Houston spoke with ABC The World TV program late yesterday. This is basically what he said.

- Crews very frustrated at not finding any debris. They have been working so hard.
- Heartened that all nations working together- where there is a need - working toward a common purpose.
- Fusion Centre suggested by Singapore, to coordinate future search and rescue ops.
- He never put a number on how many days until anything is found. Could be up to 20 days, hopefully will be far less.
- Very deep, and very dark down there. Only one vehicle at this stage that can work at those depths.
- Conditions in silt could be very demanding, bringing unanticipated problems.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-04-11/new-signal-detected-in-search-for-mh370/5382514
 
I don't get it.

Several pings now and a couple of days ago they were apparently down to a 25 sq mile search area. The torpedo/cylinder looking thing should be able to map the ocean floor by now, it can be under water for 25 hours, so why no news?

Everything just seems to be aking FOREVER!
 
Can someone let me know if my understanding is correct, in a really oversimplified way:

Different countries/airports use a few different GPS tracking systems - for a bad comparison, in the same way that different countries/areas use different cell phone carriers. ACARs is the system on the plane that allows you to connect into the system and give/get data, like a computer program. ATC can look at its screen and see where everyone is who is close to the airport and direct them accordingly.

The transponder gives off signals at a radio frequency to whoever is around, whether they connected to the GPS company or not, notifying them that it is nearby and if necessary "squawking" an identifying code that tells whether it is civilian/military and what plane it is based on its assigned code.

This is manually done by the pilot - the transponder doesn't magically know which plane it is - the pilot inputs a code that is assigned to the flight. As a result, when used to determine military v. civilian aircraft, it can only positively identify friendly targets but not hostile ones. If the other side receives no reply or an invalid reply, the object cannot be identified as friendly but is not positively identified as a foe. There are many reasons that friendly aircraft may not properly reply.

This is why civilian aircrafts have been accidentally shot down - did not respond or did not properly respond, and I think for a while there were incidents where planes or ships would squawk a friendly code when they were enemies and do a sneak attack. So they continuously reassign codes so that they can't be kept track of. If they want to make sure it's the right commercial scheduled flight, they call the pilot directly, maybe through ATC, and say "squawk XYZ" and if he does, they know it's the real flight. But if it's not a scheduled flight, they can't contact the plane, and if it isn't in any way identifiable, it becomes identified as a possible threat.

Then you have radar, which tracks all planes in the area, but can't determine much except size and direction. Used primarily for military purposes, and less sophisticated. It's purpose is to see planes coming at us, and if they can't be identified, to take action. It is also used as a backup in case there's a problem with the more sophisticated ATC systems and they need to see if planes are close to each other.

If a transponder/ACARs fails, this normally isn't a huge issue, except maybe in a war zone, because they can still use radio communication to let everyone know who they are and where they are, like they normally do. They just call in and say "I lost my transponder, this is my altitude/coordinates, let me know when it's okay to land/where I should go in the meantime to avoid other planes." This is how we did everything before modern tracking technology. Pilots seem to regularly report this info anyway - they don't just rely on tracking data.

It sounds like China used a different company than most in the area. The flight programs had the ability to dial into both systems - maybe like how a cell phone can attach to another carrier's tower if yours is not available? So it can turn off one and switch to the other so that China can see where it is on GPS as it enters Chinese airspace. Turning off the transponder sounds kind of like turning off the radio - if you don't need that communication at the moment, you're just adding to the static.

The point I'm getting at is, pilots don't usually use the transponder as a primary means of communicating their whereabouts, and can use different computer programs coordinate with ATC. Most communication will be via radio and not dependent on these systems (although is the radio direct from ATC To the plane dependent on some sort of internet type system?). There is no one global system, or one way to identify an aircraft. Everything is voluntarily and done for the efficiency of air travel - we used to have air travel without these systems. They choose to connect to the GPS in order to coordinate with ATC, but ATC isn't just supposed to keep track of every plane in existence - it's supposed to work with pilots to determine who is nearby and keep them apart until they prepare to land. It's not a military operation. They are not responsible for being able to track every airplane, and there are backup systems, but they aren't there to take into account a pilot who is being unresponsive - mostly because if the pilot/crew won't respond and use any of the systems, no one can be of any help - at that point it's a military issue. No one has ever bothered to develop a way to track totally disabled planes, because it's so unlikely to happen in a situation where it could make any difference. They rely on the pilots being cooperative, and if it's a situation like hypoxia or those pilots who overflew their destination by hours without checking in, then the tracking systems would still work so they can send someone to go look. For the pilot not to respond and all tracking to be disabled, it has either become an issue of demand-less hijacking or military attack necessitating a shootdown, which is extremely rare, or the plane has crashed/exploded and no one can do anything but look for the wreckage.

The military uses the radar to make sure no one is attacking, but it has a limited application. Things not flying at us are not a security threat - so we don't just have some global system to keep track of rogue planes. Each country looks for some unidentified aircraft entering its territory, scrambles jets if they have them, and tries to determine who it is. If that isn't possible, it gets shot down, although because we're not at war a lot of countries would probably be hesitant to assume its an enemy and risk killing civilians. The U.S. obviously has a history of recent conflict and would probably shoot a plane like that down. I don't know if every place would, especially if it wasn't zooming towards a city.

I think the reason this hasn't been made clear is because no one talking about this seems to really grasp the different technologies and is shocked by things that the investigators see as totally normal. They aren't shocked by the fact that a plane can avoid detection or a transponder can be turned off - but they want to know why. The stuff we see as suspicious v. what they do is probably largely different. Most people aren't trying to analyze the ACARs stuff outside Websleuths because they don't know about it and conflate all tracking processes, as does the media. So Malaysia gives out basic information about what data they have and when they lost contact, but it isn't going to give a full analysis as to how the tracking systems differ and all that. It's too technical, and they'd have to get aviation investigators to talk, which isn't really their style. The report will go into detail if this ever resolves.

I'm sure CNN could get an expert to explain this, but it seems to have little interest in lengthy accurate explanations that don't lead to clear, alarming conclusions.

bbm

Wow you have really done your research!!

I was speaking about this with a friend of mine who has also been keeping up with the developments.

She told me that during her research on the net, she discovered just like you said, that planes aren't tracked every second and every minute. It it up to the pilots to "check in."

For example, she said let's say there is a trans-atlantic flight. Like let's say Washington-Paris or something. They go up close to Greenland so as to stay as close to any land as possible, in case of emergency landing. That's why the routes are usually curved routes instead of straight lines (which I never could understand).

But once the plane goes out over the deep ocean, there is no radar to track it. Because there are no radar installations in the ocean. Once they are on land, yes there is a lot of radar to track it. But not over the open ocean. So, what happens is that the pilots are required to check-in every 15 minutes during that time.

So let's pilots check in at 1:00, and in the next minutes something happens to the plane. Well whoever is monitoring it won't know anything is wrong until 1:15, which was the next scheduled time for the pilots to check-in.

It is actually pretty scary when one actually thinks about it.

JMO.
 
Bingo! I say much of the info coming out of Malaysia is just that.

I think Cariis said it best.."the only thing they were scrambling is eggs":floorlaugh:

I can only imagine what else is yet to be revealed. Or not.

What I find very interesting is the timing of this information which is supposedly coming from Malaysian officials. They know that everyone is pre-occupied with the Australians and Mr. Houston and the search. Mr. Houston makes a press conference almost daily. He has to answer to what is going on in the search.

Who do the Malaysians have to answer to?

They are releasing information....WHERE IS THE PRESS CONFERENCE???

So that journalists can ask them questions?? Such as, where are you getting this information that it was at 4,000 feet? How did you verifty that it was the pilots's voice? Why did you say earlier it was the co-pilot, then changed it, and now have changed it again?

What exactly was your country's response in the immediate minutes and hours after you knew 370 was missing?

What jets did you scramble?

Where did these jets search?

When did you scramble them?

What information exactly led you to scrambling the jets?

Oh if I was a family member I would be fuming right now.

It is very obvious that Malaysia is trying to "slip things in" without ever having to be held accountabe or answer anyone's questions.

Makes me downright furious right now.

JMO.
 
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