Malaysia Flight MH17 shot down in Ukraine. 298 aboard. 7/17/2014 - #2

[Lyra500]

That area is part of Ukraine, not Russia. So I am not sure why they are asking Putin for access to the site instead of Poroshenko. Unless they want Putin to actually send a Russian army in there.

Yes it is in Ukraine, but it is controlled by pro-Russian militia who have been supported by Putin and Russia throughout. There is no way the separatists will listen to the Kiev Government (or Junta as they call it), but they may well listen to Putin since they get a lot of their arms and support from Russia.

That is why everyone has been on the phone to Putin - they want him to use his influence with the rebels so that the salvage and investigation can move forward as soon as possible.

 

[zwiebel]

That area is part of Ukraine, not Russia. So I am not sure why they are asking Putin for access to the site instead of Poroshenko. Unless they want Putin to actually send a Russian army in there.

Because Russia has absolute control of this area. The history of Ukraine - which is a very new, independant country, as you'll know - is inextricably intertwined with Russia. It's impossible, at this time, with this situation, that anything could happen here without Kremlin orders.

 

[jjenny]

Because Russia has absolute control of this area. The history of Ukraine - which is a very new, independant country, as you'll know - is inextricably intertwined with Russia. It's impossible, at this time, with this situation, that anything could happen here without Kremlin orders.

How does Russia have control of the area? There is a civil war going on. Russian troops are not in this area. By the way, it doesn't seen these countries actually want anything transported into Russia either.

 

[zwiebel]

I'm not sure everyone on this thread is aware of the history of 'Ukraine' as an actual, independent country. I'm going to post some stuff in a while, so people can see why the idea of Russia being a disinterested party is laughable.

 

[zwiebel]

How does Russia have control of the area? There is a civil war going on. Russian troops are not in this area. By the way, it doesn't seen these countries actually want anything transported into Russia either.

Some snips of info, for anyone wanting to know more about the background and reasons for what we are seeing going on here.

'Only the Crimean Peninsula, with its subtropical southern coast, has triggered a similar level of delight and desire among Russians, who refer to it as "our pearl." In March, President Vladimir Putin, flaunting international law, brought that most important jewel on the Black Sea back into the Russian fold.'

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/georgia-trapped-between-russia-and-the-eu-a-979945.html

'After the Russian Revolution of 1917, Crimea became a republic within the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic in the USSR. In World War Two it was downgraded to the Crimean Oblast, and in 1954 the Crimean Oblast was transferred to Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic. It became the Autonomous Republic of Crimea within newly independent Ukraine in 1991, with Sevastopol having its own administration, within Ukraine but outside of the Autonomous Republic.'

Sovereignty and control of the peninsula became the subject of the ongoing 2014 Crimean crisis, a territorial dispute between Russia and Ukraine.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea

'Now, 75 years after one of the great forgotten crimes of modern times, Stalin's man-made famine of 1932/3, the former Soviet republic of Ukraine is asking the world to classify it as a genocide.
The Ukrainians call it the Holodomor - the Hunger.'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1038774/Holocaust-hunger-The-truth-Stalins-Great-Famine.html

In the autumn of 1909 I went for the first time to Livadia, the country estate of the Imperial Family in the Crimea. This part of Russia, dearer to all of the Tsars than any other, is a small peninsula, almost an island, surrounded on the west and south by the Black Sea and on the east by the Sea of Asov. A range of high hills protects it from the cold winds of the north and gives it a climate so mild and bland as to be almost sub-tropical.

http://www.alexanderpalace.org/russiancourt/IV.html

 

[kimi_SFC]

I personally don't mind the images. It is a fact, and I have a feeling it will get worse. I guess I don't possess any feelings?

Oh no, ElleElle, I didn't mean it that way (my apologies if my post came across that way :hug: )

The story must be documented and told, I agree.

But in an instant, I imagined the family members awaiting word, possibly reading here, only to see this image, and thought of how they would feel. The WS mantra of always being a victim-friendly forum took over and I spoke from my heart. :heartluv:

A family photo, separated from a family. A child smiling with his/her parents, in happier times. Those personal effects so mistreated, as MH17 and her passengers were (and still are I might add), while the world watches.

Not posting the image was, perhaps, my way of paying my respects to them, even I I couldn't find the words to express it in a way that made sense on the thread.

I can only speak for myself, and would never begin to speak for anyone else. I hope this makes sense (no easy task when all of this is so senseless).

:grouphug:

#PrayForMH17


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[zwiebel]

What happened in the Ukraine the last time Russia decided it was getting too independant. This nation doesn't have a lot of choice. Moscow's calling the shots here.

http://www.unitedhumanrights.org/genocide/ukraine_famine.htm

 

[SouthAussie]

Because Russia has absolute control of this area. The history of Ukraine - which is a very new, independant country, as you'll know - is inextricably intertwined with Russia. It's impossible, at this time, with this situation, that anything could happen here without Kremlin orders.

And ....

"Russia has had thousands of troops stationed just across the border since the crisis in eastern Ukraine began. Nato says Russia had recently increased its force on the border to between 10,000 and 12,000 troops."

http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/malaysia/article/mh17-the-knowns-and-unknowns-thus-far

This incident happened just 30 miles from the border.

 

[jjenny]

And ....

"Russia has had thousands of troops stationed just across the border since the crisis in eastern Ukraine began. Nato says Russia had recently increased its force on the border to between 10,000 and 12,000 troops."

http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/malaysia/article/mh17-the-knowns-and-unknowns-thus-far

Being across the border doesn't really do any good, does it, in connection with body removal from the inside of Ukraine?

 

[Lyra500]

I'm not sure everyone on this thread is aware of the history of 'Ukraine' as an actual, independent country. I'm going to post some stuff in a while, so people can see why the idea of Russia being a disinterested party is laughable.

Please do! I am really surprised by some of the comments, questions and assertions.

 

[BJsleuth]

Oh no, ElleElle, I didn't mean it that way (my apologies if my post came across that way :hug: )

The story must be documented and told, I agree.

But in an instant, I imagined the family members awaiting word, possibly reading here, only to see this image, and thought of how they would feel. The WS mantra of always being a victim-friendly forum took over and I spoke from my heart. :heartluv:

A family photo, separated from a family. A child smiling with his/her parents, in happier times. Those personal effects so mistreated, as MH17 and her passengers were (and still are I might add), while the world watches.

Not posting the image was, perhaps, my way of paying my respects to them, even I I couldn't find the words to express it in a way that made sense on the thread.

I can only speak for myself, and would never begin to speak for anyone else. I hope this makes sense (no easy task when all of this is so senseless).

:grouphug:

#PrayForMH17


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

As shocking and horrific as some of the photos may be, perhaps they will assist in any investigation given that people and wreckage has already been moved?

 

[Lyra500]

How does Russia have control of the area? There is a civil war going on. Russian troops are not in this area. By the way, it doesn't seen these countries actually want anything transported into Russia either.

The reason that the civil war is even possible is that Russia have armed the rebel forces and are on the border with huge numbers of troops ready to intervene if Putin feels the need.

So that is the way Russia is helping to control the area. There is no way those rebels would have got their hands on or been able to use the BUK SAM system without Russian support.

 

[atthelake]

Because Russia has absolute control of this area. The history of Ukraine - which is a very new, independant country, as you'll know - is inextricably intertwined with Russia. It's impossible, at this time, with this situation, that anything could happen here without Kremlin orders.

Thanks zwiebel. Missing your 3:30 am eastern time German breakfast goodies since the wait and see for Oscars trial outcome. :blowkiss:

 

[SouthAussie]

Being across the border doesn't really do any good, does it, in connection with body removal from the inside of Ukraine?

But it does address your comment ...

How does Russia have control of the area? There is a civil war going on. Russian troops are not in this area. By the way, it doesn't seen these countries actually want anything transported into Russia either.

 

[zwiebel]

During the deliberate, Stalin directed, Holodomore - The hunger - Russian authorities had to issue an edict in Ukraine that cannabilism was a crime. That was in the 1920s/30s.

This led directly to Ukraine's absolutely dreadful, shameful role in WW2. And the lasting Nazi legacy it has today. You can pretty much guarantee corpses of the wrong color will be treated with the utmost disrespect, by those in control.

I have links to back up what I'm posting, if anyone has the stomach for it.

 

[zwiebel]

Thanks zwiebel. Missing your 3:30 am eastern time German breakfast goodies since the wait and see for Oscars trial outcome. :blowkiss:

Think I got to taste maybe two of those breakfast goodies. I'd take a photo, turn around, and they were gone!

 

[jjenny]

The reason that the civil war is even possible is that Russia have armed the rebel forces and are on the border with huge numbers of troops ready to intervene if Putin feels the need.

So that is the way Russia is helping to control the area. There is no way those rebels would have got their hands on or been able to use the BUK SAM system without Russian support.

They supposedly took a BAK system from an Ukrainian airbase.

 

[zwiebel]

Being across the border doesn't really do any good, does it, in connection with body removal from the inside of Ukraine?

Yes it does, if you have Russia's permission to cross. Then there is no border at all. I know this. Mr Z was very,very close when the shooting down happened. But no way, no how can I provide a link. Hope you understand.

 

[zwiebel]

The Western borders of the Ukraine are kind of like the border between the US and Canada. The Eastern borders of the Ukraine are kind of like the border between the US and Mexico - if it was in Venezuela.

 

[gia2]

As shocking and horrific as some of the photos may be, perhaps they will assist in any investigation given that people and wreckage has already been moved?

I agree with you. Whilst the images are incredibly upsetting to see and must be so traumatic for the families (particularly the images of dead children, completely unacceptable to release in my opinion) these photos may be all we get in the way of undisturbed/uncontaminated evidence. Of course many of the photos show the scene after it has been contaminated, but still it gives our investigators something.

For example, the photos will enable investigators to see the type of damage the plane had, to build a map of where the plane fragments ended up, where the passengers landed and their condition. It may give authorities an idea of how many bodies should have been returned to families (I hate to say it but I think everyone is thinking it, perhaps the bodies won't be returned). Then they could try and work out approximately how many would have been incinerated and how many were kept (if any were). It pains a very vivid image for ingestigators anyway. Usually I get so angry at journalists and people not respecting the dead and their families, but given the circumstances I think it may be good in the long run.

I just wish they'd stop posing items and leave them where they fell. I hope some of the local people will collect and store the personal effects such as photos and documents.