Max's Search Warrants Released!!!! Discuss Max's Death here #2

[jjenny]

The extent of the visible injuries was not good enough for an accurate diagnosis at that time. The extent of the injuries was not known until an autopsy was done. Then they were visible.

Exactly. Max's neck was not broken. His visible injuries would not explain why he had cardiac arrest. But spinal cord contusion explains brain swelling and cardiac arrest.

 

[SmoothOperator]

A refresher on what the doctor is credited with saying in the SW:

Direct quote, page 5, from thumbnail 3 of the SW:

"On July 14th, at approximately 1800 hours, I was requested to respond to the Children's Hospital in regard to a pending Protective Services Report that was going to be filed by Jessica Robershaw, Children's Hospital Social Worker.

"During the follow -- during my follow-up investigation with Dr. Brad Peterson, Head of the ICU Trauma, he informed me that over the course of four days of medical testing, no determination could be made on the cause of the cardiac arrest suffered by Shacknai.

"Based on the description of the incident surrounding Shacknai's fall, Dr. Peterson did not feel the visible injuries were consistent with the cardiac arrest and brain swelling experienced by Shacknai. Dr. Peterson expressed concerns made based on the -- the above factors, suffocation may have occurred prior to Shacknai's fall".

All of this
Proven in a thorough autopsy to have been wrong.. What are the final findings CDS22?? According to autopsy results??

 

[CDS22]

If the scooter was under one and over another to begin with it could be on one leg when he was turned over. In other words it was between his legs to start with. Test it out, I just did and it works.

But you forget that with the force needed to hit the floor from that height, the scooter would not have remained between the boy's legs, if that were the scenario.

IMO

 

[Dr.Fessel]

unfortunately, the adult present could not recall whether or not she turned Max over and told police nobody witnessed the boy's plunge.

JMO

I was just going off what the other poster said about her telling an officer she turned him over.

 

[CDS22]

All of this
Proven in a thorough autopsy to have been wrong.. What are the final findings CDS22?? According to autopsy results??

Don't you see them posted a few posts up?

 

[CDS22]

The extent of the visible injuries was not good enough for an accurate diagnosis at that time. The extent of the injuries was not known until an autopsy was done. Then they were visible.

Actually, that's not true. There's a link from the Mayo Clinic on the first thread that explains how spinal cord injuries are diagnosed. There are all sorts of diagnostic tools available for this.

ETA link:

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/spinal-cord-injury/DS00460/DSECTION=tests-and-diagnosis

 

[CDS22]

Now, a link about how homicidal smothering is extremely hard to detect:

http://www.forensicpathologyonline.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=106&Itemid=123

(It's in the last paragraph)

 

[Dr.Fessel]

But you forget that with the force needed to hit the floor from that height, the scooter would not have remained between the boy's legs, if that were the scenario.

IMO

The scooter would have just as much chance ending up between his legs as anywhere else.

 

[justbetweenus]

The extent of the visible injuries was not good enough for an accurate diagnosis at that time. The extent of the injuries was not known until an autopsy was done. Then they were visible.

Wouldn't they know by CT scans or MRI? This was noted from the dr. 4 days after admission. I appreciate your post. Thanks.

 

[MyBelle]

The extent of the visible injuries was not good enough for an accurate diagnosis at that time. The extent of the injuries was not known until an autopsy was done. Then they were visible.

The ICU Chief did four days of testing prior to contacting CPS and police. Of course they would know and had made an accurate diagnosis of injuries by the fourth day. I do not believe an invasive examination of the child's spinal column was made at the autopsy. No need to do so because of all the tests and his death was attended to by physicians.

JMO

 

[MyBelle]

The scooter would have just as much chance ending up between his legs as anywhere else.

The animation doesn't include the scooter going over the second floor railing so I guess LE realized it is too far-fetched a theory to be believable.

JMO

 

[Dr.Fessel]

Actually, that's not true. There's a link from the Mayo Clinic on the first thread that explains how spinal cord injuries are diagnosed. There are all sorts of diagnostic tools available for this.

ETA link:

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/spinal-cord-injury/DS00460/DSECTION=tests-and-diagnosis

Actually it is true. There is no better diagnostic tool then an autopsy.

 

[CDS22]

Now here's what I'm wondering. (OPINION ALERT) If Dr. Brad Peterson was correct, and MS was smothered prior to going over the stairs, does that mean the spinal contusion happened when he was resisting being smothered, or did it happen when he went over the stairs? Because if he was unconscious but not dead when he went over the stairs, does that mean he could have been saved if someone hadn't thrown him over in hopes of covering up the smothering? Because they were able to resuscitate MS after 25-30 minutes. So even if the smothering were accidental (and I have a hard time imagining that it could be), wouldn't the cover-up have been murder?

JMO, of course

 

[jjenny]

The ICU Chief did four days of testing prior to contacting CPS and police. Of course they would know and had made an accurate diagnosis of injuries by the fourth day. I do not believe an invasive examination of the child's spinal column was made at the autopsy. No need to do so because of all the tests and his death was attended to by physicians.

JMO

Then why didn't the doctor mention spinal cord injuries as a basis for his opinion? The fact is, he didn't. He based his opinion on visible injuries non consistent with brain swelling and cardiac arrest. Said nothing about spinal cord damage. Frankly, if the doctor was aware of the extensive spinal cord damage and yet still didn't believe that could cause cardiac arrest, then why didn't he say so?

 

[Dr.Fessel]

The ICU Chief did four days of testing prior to contacting CPS and police. Of course they would know and had made an accurate diagnosis of injuries by the fourth day. I do not believe an invasive examination of the child's spinal column was made at the autopsy. No need to do so because of all the tests and his death was attended to by physicians.

JMO

Of course they examined the spinal cord in the autopsy. They do an autopsy to find out what the person died from. There is no better diagnostic tool.

 

[CDS22]

Then why didn't the doctor mention spinal cord injuries as a basis for his opinion? The fact is, he didn't. He based his opinion on visible injuries non consistent with brain swelling and cardiac arrest. Said nothing about spinal cord damage. Frankly, if the doctor was aware of the extensive spinal cord damage and yet still didn't believe that could cause cardiac arrest, then why didn't he say so?

Don't you think his actions in calling CPS and the police do just that?

IMO

 

[jjenny]

Of course they examined the spinal cord in the autopsy. They do an autopsy to find out what the person died from. There is no better diagnostic tool.

Not only they examined it, the autopsy includes a neuropathology report showing necrosis of the spinal cord section consistent with cord contusion.

 

[CDS22]

Actually it is true. There is no better diagnostic tool then an autopsy.

I'm not disputing how effective autopsies are. I'm disputing the claim that the doctors could not have known about MS's spinal injuries UNTIL they did the autopsy.

It's like saying, "Doctors couldn't know so-and-so died from cancer. They had no clue there was cancer until they did an autopsy". Well, no, there are diagnostic tests besides autopsies to diagnose cancer, just like there are diagnostic tools to diagnose spinal cord contusions. Those tests are listed in the Mayo Clinic link.

 

[CDS22]

Another article about spinal cord contusions and how they are diagnosed:

http://www.spineuniverse.com/condit...ry/spinal-cord-injury-sci-aftermath-diagnosis

 

[Dr.Fessel]

I'm not disputing how effective autopsies are. I'm disputing the claim that the doctors could not have known about MS's spinal injuries UNTIL they did the autopsy.

It's like saying, "Doctors couldn't know so-and-so died from cancer. They had no clue there was cancer until they did an autopsy". Well, no, there are diagnostic tests besides autopsies to diagnose cancer, just like there are diagnostic tools to diagnose spinal cord contusions. Those tests are listed in the Mayo Clinic link.

They would not have known the true extent of the damage until they went in and looked at it. All the other tools can give you a good idea but until you go in and look you don't know for sure.

A biopsy to look at a cancer cell or a blood test to look at a cancer cell is the only positive way to diagnose cancer. My father died of lung cancer, they were sure he had it but they never knew for sure until the autopsy.