Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #16

[wasnt_me]

As per RS's appeal, the Court used the wrong measurements in the Motivational Report. To simply try and ignore such a blatent error is wrong.

The fact is as SV has stated above and which the experts themsevles have said the footprint cannot be attributed to any one person due to the fact that it is a partial print on an uneven surface

Exactly, which is why I said all you got to go on is what it looks like. I mean, you could tell if it's a child's footprint versus a grownups, but other than that, you got to just look at it subjectively. Again, RS's toe is the only thing that makes it not look like his foot.

 

[wasnt_me]

Regarding appeals:

Regardless of the result of this appeal trial, this will be going to the Italian Supreme Court, as all three parties (AK/RS, the prosecution, and the Kerchers) have the right to appeal this outcome. That trial will not be like this one, however. Instead it will focus on the rulings of the previous Judges.

When it does get to the ISC, it will be a total crap-shoot, IMO, thanks to the fact that the Italians have no set Supreme Court makeup (they instead have a pool of SC judges to draw from), and that the SC Judges have a history of making bizarre rulings.



I must say, I just love the fact that the Italian system allows such a high level of involvement by victims/their survivors. I really wish that the US had something like this. It helps to alleviate the helplessness that Survivors go through during the trial process, amongst other things. Of course, first the US would need to give defendants more resources (something that needs to be done anyway), to make up for the tag-teaming they would be up against.

I like that they let them be involved, too, but only to an extent. I don't think Mascera should be able to object and block evidence or testimony. The victim's family is biased usually, and if the wrong person is on trial, it could be bad if the victim's family is too hurt to objectively see. They seem to counter this by alllowing the accused to make declarations without being questioned. I really like that part much more.

I guess for me, it's just so important that the right people are on trial. So I advocate a defendant's rights. I get boiling angry though when an obviously guilty defendent takes advantage of the system and gets off.

What might be good is for a state appoint lawyer to advocate for the victim from an entirely objective standpoint, meaning, he sits at his own table, not the prosecution's table. He asks his own questions whether they benefit the prosecution or the defense, because he is ultimately looking for justice for the victim. I don't know what the heck Mascara is looking for. I wish he'd help the family see the reasonable doubt, because this is so SO SO hard on them.

 

[Allusonz]

I like that they let them be involved, too, but only to an extent. I don't think Mascera should be able to object and block evidence or testimony. The victim's family is biased usually, and if the wrong person is on trial, it could be bad if the victim's family is too hurt to objectively see. They seem to counter this by alllowing the accused to make declarations without being questioned. I really like that part much more.

I guess for me, it's just so important that the right people are on trial. So I advocate a defendant's rights. I get boiling angry though when an obviously guilty defendent takes advantage of the system and gets off.

What might be good is for a state appoint lawyer to advocate for the victim from an entirely objective standpoint, meaning, he sits at his own table, not the prosecution's table. He asks his own questions whether they benefit the prosecution or the defense, because he is ultimately looking for justice for the victim. I don't know what the heck Mascara is looking for. I wish he'd help the family see the reasonable doubt, because this is so SO SO hard on them.

Have to agree here. It has continued to amaze me how actively involved Maresca is in the criminal proceedings. I often get the feeling that he is simply speaking for Mignini as the prosecutor in this appeal has been surprisingly quiet.

 

[SMK]

Regarding appeals:

Regardless of the result of this appeal trial, this will be going to the Italian Supreme Court, as all three parties (AK/RS, the prosecution, and the Kerchers) have the right to appeal this outcome. That trial will not be like this one, however. Instead it will focus on the rulings of the previous Judges.

When it does get to the ISC, it will be a total crap-shoot, IMO, thanks to the fact that the Italians have no set Supreme Court makeup (they instead have a pool of SC judges to draw from), and that the SC Judges have a history of making bizarre rulings.



I must say, I just love the fact that the Italian system allows such a high level of involvement by victims/their survivors. I really wish that the US had something like this. It helps to alleviate the helplessness that Survivors go through during the trial process, amongst other things. Of course, first the US would need to give defendants more resources (something that needs to be done anyway), to make up for the tag-teaming they would be up against.

Good points, but I am now recalling an article I read back in the 1990s in the New York Times Sunday magazine. It was something to the effect of, "Why Victim Imapct Statements Should Not be Allowed".

The journalist said he was invited to go to a parole hearing , for a man who had harmed his relative. He gave a statement, and parole was denied. The next day, the inmate committed suicide.

This journalist reflected, and decided that he should not have had any say in the process. Emotion and passion - which victims and their families are understandably filled with - should have no place in the Logic and Ethics of Reason which comprise Blind Justice.

 

[Allusonz]

@ miley

Missed you guys to sometimes there are just times when I am trying to see my head over the paper work and truly have to avoid my late night posts as it is very apparent I have been working late and can barely understand my own posts let alone my spelling :giggle:

 

[Allusonz]

@ milliac

:welcome:

gives you a designer straight jacket for this case

 

[Malkmus]

Another DNA expert weighs in on the evidence and predictions for Monday:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...da-knox-case/2011/07/23/gIQA31C7UI_video.html

He starts about 1:40 in to the video.

 

[SMK]

Another DNA expert weighs in on the evidence and predictions for Monday:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...da-knox-case/2011/07/23/gIQA31C7UI_video.html

He starts about 1:40 in to the video.

Thanks for posting this Malkmus. This is a well-known forensic scientist and DNA expert, and it sounds very positive for them on Monday. Judge Hellman is expected to uphold the independent findings that the DNA is not reliable as evidence. Of course, if you read Perugia Murder File, they say the opposite. But they were dead wrong in the past, and remind me of the people who hooted with scorn when I suggested days prior to the Casey Anthony verdict that it might well be not guilty on all counts. Guess we shall soon have a better idea of the rulings.....

 

[Nova]

This is the part I truly hate. The judge has left open the possibility of examining other things such as TOD etc., thus this appeal could be much longer. They could also make a ruling either way. If they indeed find them guilty again then we would have another appeal at the supreme court level.

Don't we get an appeal either way? I think Italy allows the prosecution to appeal as well.

ETA Never mind. SMK answered this on the preceding page. Yes, either side may appeal.

 

[Nova]

Good points, but I am now recalling an article I read back in the 1990s in the New York Times Sunday magazine. It was something to the effect of, "Why Victim Imapct Statements Should Not be Allowed".

The journalist said he was invited to go to a parole hearing , for a man who had harmed his relative. He gave a statement, and parole was denied. The next day, the inmate committed suicide.

This journalist reflected, and decided that he should not have had any say in the process. Emotion and passion - which victims and their families are understandably filled with - should have no place in the Logic and Ethics of Reason which comprise Blind Justice.

Well, I wouldn't go this far. I think victim impact statements have their place, even if their impact is largely ceremonial. That one inmate committed suicide doesn't mean the system is wrong.

But I'm not crazy about relatives of victims having their own lawyer for the criminal case. (They may have lawyers for other purposes outside the courtroom.)

The State already represents the victim and does so in most cases with a huge advantage in resources.

 

[SMK]

Well, I wouldn't go this far. I think victim impact statements have their place, even if their impact is largely ceremonial. That one inmate committed suicide doesn't mean the system is wrong.

But I'm not crazy about relatives of victims having their own lawyer for the criminal case. (They may have lawyers for other purposes outside the courtroom.)

The State already represents the victim and does so in most cases with a huge advantage in resources.

I see your point, but I actually am against victim impact statements on principle. Everyone knows the loss of someone to crime leaves a hole and is a terrible injustice, but I think the courtroom should be void of passion. Just my own feeling and belief RE philosophy of jurisprudence, about this innovation, and I had a family member fall victim to a very serious and brutal crime, so it is not as though I have no comprehension of it.

 

[SMK]

Latest from Barbie Nadeau at The Daily Beast: As she is decidedly pro-conviction and Perugia Murder File is a huge fan of hers, found it surprising:

Knox's Stunning Turnaround

Just a few months ago, all appeared lost for Amanda Knox. But her appeal is proving to be a game changer—and now Barbie Latza Nadeau reports that she could be home by Christmas.

It is 105 degrees in the shade of the prison yard of the Capanne Correctional Facility outside Perugia, Italy, where Seattle native Amanda Knox is serving 26 years for the murder of her British roommate Meredith Kercher.

On July 9, Knox turned 24; it was her fourth birthday behind prison walls. She celebrated over a cappuccino with her Perugian lawyer Luciano Ghirga. On the eve of her birthday, supporters back home in Seattle raised more than $15,000 for her defense at a birthday fundraiser with live music and a silent auction that included a golf weekend donated by Donald Trump. She wrote a letter to the attendees: “Dear Friends, I want so badly to be there to rock out with you. It's so cool and I'm truly honored that you're sharing with me and my loved ones my birthday (and celebrating all those motives like love and truth). Thank you for your support of me and my family. I'm with you in spirit. Spirit hugs. Cheers. Your friend, Amanda." This could easily be Knox’s last birthday behind bars—a notion nearly unimaginable just a few months ago. Yet now there is a very good chance that she will be released this fall.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/07/23/amanda-knox-appeal-could-she-get-out-of-jail-this-year.html

 

[emyr]

Looking at the Brian Stow situation, I actually was thinking that the Italian system seems less error-prone. Imagine if Giovanni had said something along the vein that Amanda had said?

It's interesting if you think back over the case. If Amanda hadn't falsely implicated Lumamba, then the DNA indicating Guede would have come in while she was still walking around free. There would have been no investigation of Sollecito's place and so no knife, and there wouldn't have been an additional DNA sweep weeks later that would have gotten the bra clasp. She probably wouldn't have been tried at all.

If I was operating off a presumption of guilt, I'd have to think that Amanda and Raf left their flat shortly after Amelia finished playing, in order to pack up Amanda's things to go to Gubbio the next day. They left their turned off cell phones behind in their flat. They ran across Rudy at the basketball court (Amanda said she met Lumamba at the basketball court, so she would be lying as closely to the truth in case there were witnesses). They proceeded together to the cottage and arrived at around 9:45.

I don't know what happened next, but because there is no evidence of blood on clothing and no evidence of cleaning up of DNA in the murder room or hallway, the only thing that makes sense with the evidence provided is that they were naked and attacking Meredith while Rudy was clothed and attacking her. OR, Rudy attacked and killer her and fled, and Amanda and Raffaelle exited from her bedroom at around 11:30pm and found her in her room dead, and Amanda screamed (the scream heard at 11:30). They then got very bloody trying to figure out what happened? Oh, I don't know. The point is, if they were present, they were involved in the attack in such a way that they got no blood on their clothes, only on Amanda's bare left foot... so it must have been close to the time of death so the blood would still be wet enough to get on her feet, but also wet enough to mask her bare footprints in the room.

OR, they only got blood on their bare skin, then they went into the bathroom to wash off the blood, getting blood to fully cover the bottom of Raffaele's foot, and to cover the bottom of Amanda's foot. For some reason, in each scenario it is their left foot. Actually, that makes me think the bathmat print would be Amanda's.

Anyway, teh blood comes from washing off the blood from skin (not clothing) on another part of the body. Oh wait, and that was done in the bidet.... then after cleaning her feet in the bidet she entered the shower with Raffaelle, and they washed off the traces of the murder. The showering has to be done right after the murder to explain the footprints.

Next they needed to come up with a plan to hide their involvement, so at this point they threw away the phones. They have Amanda's keys to lock the door, but they remember they need to retrieve Meredith's keys to make it look properly staged... so they go into her pants or purse to get the keys, but don't leave their DNA while doing this. This is probably when they bring in Amanda's lamp to see. Maybe THIS is when they get blood on their foot, and then they have to hop around to prevent leaving lots of bloody footprints.

They remove what evidence that they can of the fact they were there. Except for the bloody bathmat print. Actually it seems like they just staged a robbery and nothing else, since there's no evidence of cleaning up the murder scene. And there should be swipes seen in the luminol if that was done. Did the bathroom look wiped down?
So they only bother going so far as to make it look like there had been a robbery? And they go back to Raffaele's apartment and turn on his music at 5:30 am. Maybe they went back to his apartment around 12:30 and slept for 5 hours, then went back to the flight at 6amish to stage the scene before Filomena would turn up. But only Amanda went back at that time.

And they went back to Raffaelle's flat and super cleaned it so there would be no trace of any murder evidence there. But they didn't do this at the cottage.. but that's why they have the mop. Because they certainly don't care about a broken sink if they have a murder to cover up. That's not why the mop is there. So why is the mop there?

And they call Filomena so she will meet them at the house and so she will be the one to break open the door? Or so her DNA will be interspersed in the scene? And then after calling her they wandered around with a mop?

The mop only makes sense if they wanted to provide an excuse for a clean up. And the bathmat boogie story only makes sense if Amanda knows that she cleaned up the hallway. Because if Amanda is the murderer she knows what evidence might be there to convict her.

If her breakdown about the knife is a legitimate sign of guilt then that means the knife used to kill Meredith was in the flat. Most likely the knife that was in her suitcase, that was stolen. But if that's true that means the knife at Sollecito's is false, and the prosecution has contaminated evidence.

 

[Nova]

I see your point, but I actually am against victim impact statements on principle. Everyone knows the loss of someone to crime leaves a hole and is a terrible injustice, but I think the courtroom should be void of passion. Just my own feeling and belief RE philosophy of jurisprudence, about this innovation, and I had a family member fall victim to a very serious and brutal crime, so it is not as though I have no comprehension of it.

I'm very sorry about your family member, SMK.

I haven't seen any research, but my sense of victim impact statements is that they have no impact whatsoever on verdicts. They just give a momentary voice to victims who are necessarily silenced for the rest of the trial.

That being said, as for banning passion from the courtroom, I'm not sure it's possible or even desirable. But if we're going to discuss philosophies of jurisprudence, I imagine Salem will want us to do so elsewhere.

 

[Malkmus]

Latest from Barbie Nadeau at The Daily Beast: As she is decidedly pro-conviction and Perugia Murder File is a huge fan of hers, found it surprising:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/07/23/amanda-knox-appeal-could-she-get-out-of-jail-this-year.html

This was especially surprising to hear from Nadeau:

the jury will hear for the first time just how badly the Italian forensic team in Rome, led by Patrizia Stefanoni, mishandled the forensics of this case.

Thanks for this. Steve Moore called this just recently on his blog, that BN and Daily Beast would soon change their tune. He was right.

 

[SMK]

Amanda Knox DNA appeal sparks legal battle by forensic experts

Forensic scientist threatens to sue after her work on Meredith Kercher murder is attacked in Amanda Knox appeal report

Amanda Knox's appeal against her conviction for the murder of British student Meredith Kercher in Italy faces a fresh challenge. A prominent forensic scientist, whose DNA evidence helped to convict the US student and her former boyfriend, has vowed to overturn the findings of an independent report that says much of her work in the case was unreliable.

Knox returns to court in Perugiaon Monday, armed with the new forensic report, which she hopes will help lead to her being freed.

Kercher was found with her throat slit in the Perugia apartment she shared with Knox in 2007. Knox and her former boyfriend, Raffaele Sollecito, were sentenced to 26 and 25 years respectively in 2009 for the murder. A third suspect, Rudy Guede, had already been convicted for his role in the killing.

Written by two independent experts from Rome's Sapienza University, the 145-page DNA review rubbishes the work of Patrizia Stefanoni, the police forensic scientist who found Knox's and Kercher's DNA on a kitchen knife at Sollecito's house and identified DNA belonging to Sollecito on a torn bra clasp found beside Kercher's semi-naked body.

The report claims Stefanoni ignored international DNA protocols, made basic errors and gave evidence in court that was not backed up by her laboratory work, rendering the knife and bra strap worthless as evidence. But Stefanoni has vowed to fight back during three hearings devoted to the DNA reviews.

"I am angry about the false statements in this report and ready to come to court to highlight the past record of these experts," she told the Observer. "I am also looking into taking legal action against them. What international DNA protocols are they talking about? The Italian police is a member of the European Network of Forensic Science Institutes (ENFSI), while they are not."

Both Stefanoni and one of the report's co-authors – Carla Vecchiotti – are influential figures in a restricted circle of DNA experts in Italy and are no strangers to headline-grabbing cases. Stefanoni's work helped a British court in June convict an Italian, Daniele Restivo, of the ritualistic murder of Heather Barnett in Bournemouth in 2002. Vecchiotti has recently made the news in Italy with her work investigating a drug addict's death in police custody and the murder of a teenage girl in Puglia.

continued....http://www.u.tv/News/Amanda-Knox-DNA-appeal-sparks-legal-battle-by-forensic-experts/d0df96b7-a107-413a-8aab-c1c9db3cfae1

 

[SMK]

I'm very sorry about your family member, SMK.

I haven't seen any research, but my sense of victim impact statements is that they have no impact whatsoever on verdicts. They just give a momentary voice to victims who are necessarily silenced for the rest of the trial.

That being said, as for banning passion from the courtroom, I'm not sure it's possible or even desirable. But if we're going to discuss philosophies of jurisprudence, I imagine Salem will want us to do so elsewhere.

ddsmiley: :blowkiss:

 

[Malkmus]

continued....http://www.u.tv/News/Amanda-Knox-DNA-appeal-sparks-legal-battle-by-forensic-experts/d0df96b7-a107-413a-8aab-c1c9db3cfae1"I am angry about the false statements in this report and ready to come to court to highlight the past record of these experts," she told the Observer. "I am also looking into taking legal action against them. What international DNA protocols are they talking about? The Italian police is a member of the European Network of Forensic Science Institutes (ENFSI), while they are not."

(snipped)

Well, hell hath no fury...

Stefanoni has right to be angry. She's been humiliated internationally for her disregard of protocol. But good luck saying she followed ENFSI guidelines and the experts aren't. She's fighting for her job now, so the noise she's making is expected, but empty.

From the experts report:

In Guidance on the Production of Best Practice Manuals within ENFSI, ref cod. QCC-BPM-008, 01/05/2008, the following points amongst others are highlighted:

4.3.2 The expert must also evaluate the risk of contamination (or any other problem which could affect the integrity of the evidence) [which may have happened] before the items provided for examination are sent to the laboratory to be examined, or before the start of the analysis…

http://knoxdnareport.wordpress.com/...otes-on-inspection-and-collection-techniques/

Monday should be very, very interesting...

 

[Malkmus]

Latest from Barbie Nadeau at The Daily Beast: As she is decidedly pro-conviction and Perugia Murder File is a huge fan of hers, found it surprising:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/07/23/amanda-knox-appeal-could-she-get-out-of-jail-this-year.html

Although it's odd that BN would write:

Guede is hardly a reliable witness—traces of his fingerprints, DNA, feces, and semen were found at the crime scene in ample quantity

As we all know, no semen was ever attributed to RG. But there is the alleged and untested semen stain. Is this what she is referring to? Is she speculating? Is it a mistake (wouldn't be her first... or fifth)? Or is this more of her "insider" information like the blonde hair collected and lost?

 

[SkewedView]

continued....http://www.u.tv/News/Amanda-Knox-DNA-appeal-sparks-legal-battle-by-forensic-experts/d0df96b7-a107-413a-8aab-c1c9db3cfae1

Hah! Did I call it or what? (and to think, I was mostly joking about the independent experts being charged with defamation/slander or being investigated in retribution)