Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #17

[Allusonz]

Of course he would say that. That is his job to make sure that the conviction is beyond all reasonable doubt. That is just simple basics. I can't make the jump to him having reasonable doubt about anything. Or should I now conclude that he has no reasonable doubt about other pieces of evidence where he didn't request any additional info? That is just guess work. He is making sure he has enough information to come to the right conclusions. That is all. The conclusions come later.

The bottom line is this. Whether an individual is guilty or not, it does not allow for substandart forensics. If C & V found that many problems with the collection of evidence that is a valid point for appeal.

If the DNA evidence was not obtained according to standard protocols/procedures it truly does not matter whether we believe the individual/s to be guilty or inocent. The bottom line is that PLE screwed up.

 

[Allusonz]

It's really not conceivable that Guede would stage a break-in. It's also likely that if Guede was going to break into the cottage, he would do what was done by two others after the murder and what he did at the lawyer's office: climb over the balcony and enter through the kitchen window. The broken glass on top of the ransacked items pretty much proves that first someone was in the room and ransacked the closet, and then the window was broken ... which leaves only one conclusion: the break in was staged.

Is it inconceibable?

 

[Malkmus]

I don't know how many times I have read that 'Rudy's DNA was all over the room' as some kind of proof that he committed the murder by himself. So now it is not important anymore? Ok then :waitasec:

Mishandling and contamination are major points in the current appeal. I don't see how you can just brush aside the Supreme Courts ruling in Rudy's case. Same crime scene, same investigation team. I see a parallel. On the other hand, Rudy's defense team did not have the C&V report, so maybe that will make a difference. We will see

DNA left at crime scene + suspect placing himself at crime scene = DNA evidence inarguable.

 

[Allusonz]

*Snipped* They did argue contamination and unprofessional behavior. The argument was not accepted by the Supreme Court.

They also did not have the very first independent evaluation of the Italian labotarory.

 

[Allusonz]

DNA left at crime scene + suspect placing himself at crime scene = DNA evidence inarguable.

True...but if the DNA evidence is invalidated due to contamination that does not mean you can present it . Although I agree that RG was probably the prime suspect we have seen many cases thoughout many jurisdictions where DNA has not been used in an appropriate manner. Whether I agree with this or not is invalid. The bottom line is that there is protocols/procedures which must be adhered to

 

[Malkmus]

It's really not conceivable that Guede would stage a break-in. It's also likely that if Guede was going to break into the cottage, he would do what was done by two others after the murder and what he did at the lawyer's office: climb over the balcony and enter through the kitchen window. The broken glass on top of the ransacked items pretty much proves that first someone was in the room and ransacked the closet, and then the window was broken ... which leaves only one conclusion: the break in was staged.

Multiple problems with the "glass on top of the clothes" argument.

1. No photos exist of said glass on clothes. It's disputed whether there was actually any.
2. The couple articles of clothing under the window very likely could have already been there when the window was broken.
3. Filomena removed her laptop from the room as soon as she arrived, brushing glass off it in doing so, which could have landed on the clothes.

 

[Allusonz]

Okay, but you said twice that it was in the supreme court documents. Now you are saying that they didn't address it -- unless it's in the missing pages?

I simply must remind everyone that this is prior to the independent experts evaluations. No matter what we feel personally, if that many mistakes were made in the collection, bagging, chain of custody, and subsequent storage issues are raised it was not brought to the attention of the SC

 

[Allusonz]

When Hellman started this trial, he granted the defense an independent review of three major pieces of evidence because he deemed there was reasonable doubt. Those pieces have not stood up to scrutiny, so it appears there is still reasonable doubt. Not sure how this is preparing the case for the SC, and Hellman's opinion of the evidence seems to be very different from Massei's. What do you think he thought of the prosecution handing him an illegible photocopy of the negative controls at the 11th hour?

Although he granted these, we do not know where he stands with respect to the other supposed evidence

 

[sherlockh]

The basic problem with this theory is simply this. Independent experts were asked to evaluate the DNA for RS and AK (which I was exteremely concerned with). Their report stated not a luke warm evaluation but a critical evaluation of every step of the analyisis which went beyond the scope of just the AK and RS scope which was mandated by the judge. The evaluations went beyond one trial but put the entire Italian forensics under scrutiny. I don't believe the scope or ramifications of what the C&V evaluations presented pertain to just one trial. What their conclusions revealed was a process which seemed to encompass a number of conclusions which normally would be automatically accepted by the Courts.

This is no longer about AK and RS but the scope and reprercusions could very well be seen throughout the Italian judicial system.

This is far bigger than just the RS and AK appeals. It could potentially affect a number of previous/future rulings

Well, I agree and I see that as a huge mistake. They were asked to evaluate the bra clasp and knife. That is it. Not attack the entire Italian forensic department. That is why there was a letter read out loud sent by the head of that department. Hellman is not going to rule on plastic or paper baggies. That is not up to him. He just wants to know if there was something of Meredith on the knife.

 

[RoseMontague]

Well, I agree and I see that as a huge mistake. They were asked to evaluate the bra clasp and knife. That is it. Not attack the entire Italian forensic department. That is why there was a letter read out loud sent by the head of that department. Hellman is not going to rule on plastic or paper baggies. That is not up to him. He just wants to know if there was something of Meredith on the knife.

Thats not quite accurate. Here is the assignment given to them by the court,

“Having examined the record and conducted such technical investigations as shall be necessary, the Expert Panel shall ascertain:

* ”whether it is possible, by means of a new technical analysis, to identify the DNA present on items 165b (bra clasp) and 36 (knife), and to determine the reliability of any such identification“
* “if it is not possible to carry out a new technical analysis, shall evaluate, on the basis of the record, the degree of reliability of the genetic analysis performed by the Scientific Police on the aforementioned items, including with respect to possible contamination.”

It is clear he wanted to know about the possibility of contamination. Evaluating the collecting of the evidence is a necessary part of that.

http://knoxdnareport.wordpress.com/contents/assignment/

 

[RoseMontague]

Speaking of assignments, it is very important to note what exactly an expert is told to do and it is also interesting how an expert interprets their assignment. Take for example the prosecutions foot/shoe print expert. Here is the assignment give to Rinaldi.

"Carry out all tests designed to compare the fingerprints found on footwear
in the survey with the imprints of shoes seizure, and to compare
plantar imprints taken to suspects, in the course of inspection personnel, Knox, Sollecito and Guede with fingerprints found on the plantar pad of the bathroom adjoining the room where it is was found the corpse of Meredith Kercher, and those highlighted by the Luminol.
Find, finally, the compatibility or otherwise of fingerprints with those taken in plantar
At the inspection body, and anything else necessary in the interests of justice. "

Rinaldi was told to compare these prints only to the suspects, not the victim or anyone else in the apartment upstairs or downstairs. If it were me I would feel very limited by this restriction and I would take the part about "anything else necessary in the interest of justice" to give me a little leeway on this. No other reference footprints are included in Rinaldi's report (Google translation attached).

 

[SMK]

These 2 links were posted on the JREF forums; wish the Google translate did not make all so difficult to understand. The first is a letter written by Meredith Kercher's sister; the second is about a cat lady who saw Raffaele? and almost looks as though they are in court today? Or is that a pic from Aug?Unclear::waitasec:

http://www.tgcom.mediaset.it/cronac...bbiamo-ancora-fiducia-nelle-istituzioni.shtml

http://www.lanazione.it/umbria/cronaca/2011/09/03/574211-anche_boss.shtml

 

[Allusonz]

Sorry all have been swamped at the office. I posted off of some posts last night simply to get a few points out that I wanted to make.

Thus if my post makes no sense with respect to what was posted I will simply blame it on exhaustion, my rubber straw hat, rubber bottle of wine, and my padded cell

It is great to see so many new faces here Welcome additions to this discussion

 

[Salem]

I'm going to open a new thread guys, so prepare to move over. Back in a minute

Salem

 

[Salem]

Please continue here: GUILTY Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #18 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community


Thanks!

Salem