Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #17

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Somewhat hyperbolic and overstated article, perhaps a bit paranoid, (maybe even kooky, although may contain a germ of truth) but interesting, and it does come up on top of Google News search:

Consider the ramifications: What if lead Prosecutor Giuliano Mignini knew Rudy Guede committed the murder of Meredith Kercher before November 5th, 2007? What if Mignini went into the “interview” on November 5th, 2007 with premeditating the framing of Amanda Knox to cover for Rudy Guede?

To some, this may sound redundant, to others; I am making this highly probable scenario more defined.

Mignini has clearly made this a theological war between Good verses Evil, Christian verses Satanic and Fact verses Fiction. Along with his belief system as outlined by his previous convictions based on satanic projection, he has also used the sensationalized emotional nature of this case to camouflage an alternative motive.

As outlined in both previous articles (see DENVER), I’ve speculated that the MOTIVE was an external influence exerted by Rudy’s Perugian family. The INTENT was initially to exonerate Rudy Guede as a favor or a debt owed to Rudy’s Perugian family.

For now, no matter what the Motive or the Intent, I would simply like to outline the high degree of probability that Prosecutor Giuliano Mignini obtained Rudy’s identity a day or two before November 5th, 2007.

Please remember, the prosecution has maintained the façade that they had not identified Rudy Guede until the arrest warrant was issued November 19th, 2007.

Again, the blatant omission of information screams: “LOOK HERE!”

It then continues:

1. As stated by Piero Angeloni, head of the police forensic service: His boys do over 25,000 investigations a year and the detectives “are taught by experts over a four-month course.”

2. They are trained to do the initial forensic collection of genetic material for DNA identification where a miniscule or an abundant amount of DNA is available at the crime scene.

3. Initially, the prosecution was amused and delighted to admit that an unknown person had left a toilet sample. After that, it was never mentioned again. They stated that a few weeks later the DNA sample from the toilet paper and the results of the blood from the pillow case came back with Rudy Guede’s genetic ID. (Also meaning his genetic ID was on file.)

4. So they pretended to ignore this “elephant in the room” as it is a humongous amount of non-contaminated, isolated, DNA stool sample that was available and utilized for immediate DNA testing.

5. The prosecution has purposely omitted its importance as to how quickly the DNA identification of Rudy Guede was actually obtained. To be clear, the feces are the single most abundant source of Rudy’s pure DNA in the entire case! It is the fastest and easiest to test, and the most reliable due to the sheer amount of pure DNA that was available for testing!

6. Mignini himself came to the crime scene right away. He ordered that any evidence that would identify the perpetrator be done immediately!

http://www.groundreport.com/Business/AMANDA-KNOX-RAILROAD-JOB-FROM-HELL-NOW-PROVEN/2941121
 
This is what I am referring to:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...les-evidence-against-her-can-be-reviewed.html

What correlation exactly do you think the judge was drawing between reasonable doubt and review of the evidence, if not what I stated before?
Of course he would say that. That is his job to make sure that the conviction is beyond all reasonable doubt. That is just simple basics. I can't make the jump to him having reasonable doubt about anything. Or should I now conclude that he has no reasonable doubt about other pieces of evidence where he didn't request any additional info? That is just guess work. He is making sure he has enough information to come to the right conclusions. That is all. The conclusions come later.
 
To address the second part of your argument, Rudy had admitted being there so his defense was not going to argue contamination as the reason for his DNA being present. That would be pointless.
*Snipped* They did argue contamination and unprofessional behavior. The argument was not accepted by the Supreme Court.

Guede, as he admits, was present in the flat. He made a sexual advance towards Meredith which resulted in his biological material being found on the vaginal swab and on the clothing that Kercher was wearing. Furthermore, there is the possibility that these could also be the results of contamination between different items caused by the unprofessional behaviour of the technicians, as seen in the films of the operations conducted in the residence at via della
Pergola. From this one can deduce the unusability of these findings.
 
As RoseM stated, the argument makes no sense. That's why they lost it on appeal.

You cannot say you were there, you crapped in the toilet, and you had yourself all over and inside the victim, and then turn around and say that your DNA found in those places is contaminated.

That is a dumb, dumb argument.
 
As RoseM stated, the argument makes no sense. That's why they lost it on appeal.

You cannot say you were there, you crapped in the toilet, and you had yourself all over and inside the victim, and then turn around and say that your DNA found in those places is contaminated.

That is a dumb, dumb argument.
Right, and as Guede was there at the cottage and on the victim, indisputably and by his own admission, contamination loses its meaning. With Knox and Sollecito, it points to their not being there at all, which is what they assert. wasntme, do you think there is any truth in the article i posted above??:waitasec:
 
I don't know about that, SMK.

He makes some statements that are untrue, as I understand the case. Namely, you can't get DNA from crap. They got it from the toilet paper.

Anyways, I do believe that they were onto a black man early on, which is why I think they pressed AK. At the time, I think the only black man they could associate with MK was PL, so that's where the focus went. I think that, coupled with the misidentification of RS's tennis shoes, is what got them in trouble the night of Nov 5th. I think RS got scared out of his mind when they took his tennis shoes (from what I read somewhere) and he started saying stupid stuff, which we don't know what, to get the heat off himself. According to Nina's book, they were already in RS's apartment that night and they were arresting PL just as AK was putting pen to the first statement.

I think it happened just as the press reported it did, in terms of timeframes, because shortly after that, they released the information about the unknown suspect. Since they already knew they were looking for a black man, I think the lists of guests to the house became significant, in terms of who the 4th person could be. So that's how they got on RG's trail. Then the tests came back identifying him. Now, I do not know why his friend turned on him. It's always seemed voluntary in the retelling. But I have to wonder if police made him an offer that he couldn't refuse, which let to the skype call.
 
Right, and as Guede was there at the cottage and on the victim, indisputably and by his own admission, contamination loses its meaning. With Knox and Sollecito, it points to their not being there at all, which is what they assert. wasntme, do you think there is any truth in the article i posted above??:waitasec:
BBM..you can't be serious? The DNA evidence was accepted despite contamination because he admitted he was there? It that your point? Of course, contamination does not lose its value. Never! Rudy's DNA evidence is used against him to prove his participation in the sexual assault and the murder. That is pretty clear I thought.

Contrary to what was stated above by Rose, I showed that contamination was an argument in Rudy's trials. Had there been contamination then the Court must rule the DNA evidence inadmissible. There is no way they can say 'oh, the evidence is contaminated but we will admit the evidence anyway since he admits he was there'. Contamination means the DNA evidence is inadmissible. It will never lose any meaning. That is just plain silly.
 
BBM..you can't be serious? The DNA evidence was accepted despite contamination because he admitted he was there? It that your point? Of course, contamination does not lose its value. Never! Rudy's DNA evidence is used against him to prove his participation in the sexual assault and the murder. That is pretty clear I thought.

Contrary to what was stated above by Rose, I showed that contamination was an argument in Rudy's trials. Had there been contamination then the Court must rule the DNA evidence inadmissible. There is no way they can say 'oh, the evidence is contaminated but we will admit the evidence anyway since he admits he was there'. Contamination means the DNA evidence is inadmissible. It will never lose any meaning. That is just plain silly.

sherlockh is correct that the defense argued contamination (I was wrong). It is mentioned both in the Micheli and Borsini reports. It was a rather weak and ineffective argument (in my opinion) and the court did not accept it.

That court certainly did not have the independent expert report to go by nor did Massei. It would not surprise me to see Rudy's lawyers make some legal moves if Hellmann's court accepts the C&V report in regard to possible contamination.

Hellmann's court is not bound by the judgment of Rudy's court nor are they bound by the judgment of Massei in regard to contamination or anything else for that matter. An argument asserting there was no contamination because the first court said so means nothing. As sherlockh said

Contamination means the DNA evidence is inadmissible.

In my opinion, the court does not need to rule that there was contamination, only that the results obtained were unreliable simply because of the obvious problems in collection and testing including the strong possibilities of contamination as outlined in the conclusions of the expert report.

How that might help Rudy's case is something that is open to debate.
 
*Snipped* They did argue contamination and unprofessional behavior. The argument was not accepted by the Supreme Court.

Guede, as he admits, was present in the flat. He made a sexual advance towards Meredith which resulted in his biological material being found on the vaginal swab and on the clothing that Kercher was wearing. Furthermore, there is the possibility that these could also be the results of contamination between different items caused by the unprofessional behaviour of the technicians, as seen in the films of the operations conducted in the residence at via della Pergola. From this one can deduce the unusability of these findings.

Thank you again for bringing this up. I don't see where the Supreme Court addressed this particular point in the appeal (I do see the quote). The translation I have is missing a few pages, perhaps it is there or I am just not seeing it. In the meantime, it is addressed in Rudy's first appeal in a similar fashion as it is addressed in Massei. I am attaching a Google translation (I have edited out the address/DOB information of the civil parties).
 

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BBM..you can't be serious? The DNA evidence was accepted despite contamination because he admitted he was there? It that your point? Of course, contamination does not lose its value. Never! Rudy's DNA evidence is used against him to prove his participation in the sexual assault and the murder. That is pretty clear I thought.

Contrary to what was stated above by Rose, I showed that contamination was an argument in Rudy's trials. Had there been contamination then the Court must rule the DNA evidence inadmissible. There is no way they can say 'oh, the evidence is contaminated but we will admit the evidence anyway since he admits he was there'. Contamination means the DNA evidence is inadmissible. It will never lose any meaning. That is just plain silly.
Yes, that was my point. I guess I really know know and care nothing about CSI ( I did come to this case by way of a psychoanalytical blog, and would hope that viewpoint and perspective is important here as well...)...OK, so it was contaminated. What end will this serve for Mr. Guede....if the DNA should be inadmissible, what does this do for him? I have only been interested in contamination in terms of AK and RS not being there at all. IF i thought they were there during the murder, I would care zip for contamination. Guess I thought all viewed it as I do... I will admit, and restate that I lean toward psychological material, and am bored by forensics and have never paid much attention, which shows....but what is good for the other 2 is good for Guede, of course....
 
Yes, that was my point. I guess I really know know and care nothing about CSI ( I did come to this case by way of a psychoanalytical blog)...OK, so it was contaminated. What end will this serve for Mr. Guede....if the DNA should be inadmissible, what does this do for him? I have only been interested in contamination in terms of AK and RS not being there at all. I will admit, and restate that I lean toward psychological material, and am bored by forensics and have never paid much attention, which shows....but what is good for the other 2 is good for Guede, of course....
No, it wasn't contaminated otherwise some of his evidence would have been excluded. That was actually my point. I am not really drawing any conclusions to the AK and RS appeal since indeed that is a different trial and now there is the C&V report. Still, it did come up and the Supreme Court concluded the evidence to be reliable. Everyone can think of it whatever they want :)
 
Thank you again for bringing this up. I don't see where the Supreme Court addressed this particular point in the appeal (I do see the quote). The translation I have is missing a few pages, perhaps it is there or I am just not seeing it. In the meantime, it is addressed in Rudy's first appeal in a similar fashion as it is addressed in Massei. I am attaching a Google translation (I have edited out the address/DOB information of the civil parties).
I don't think they particularly addressed it unless it was in those missing pages. My conclusion is simply based on that they would have if they had come to the conclusion that any contamination or mishandling would have occurred.
 
sherlockh is correct that the defense argued contamination (I was wrong). It is mentioned both in the Micheli and Borsini reports. It was a rather weak and ineffective argument (in my opinion) and the court did not accept it.

That court certainly did not have the independent expert report to go by nor did Massei. It would not surprise me to see Rudy's lawyers make some legal moves if Hellmann's court accepts the C&V report in regard to possible contamination.

Hellmann's court is not bound by the judgment of Rudy's court nor are they bound by the judgment of Massei in regard to contamination or anything else for that matter. An argument asserting there was no contamination because the first court said so means nothing. As sherlockh said



In my opinion, the court does not need to rule that there was contamination, only that the results obtained were unreliable simply because of the obvious problems in collection and testing including the strong possibilities of contamination as outlined in the conclusions of the expert report.

How that might help Rudy's case is something that is open to debate.
Thanks for the clarification. I admit my purview is rather simple: I have never cared much for Guede as he has a history of break and entry and admitted to sexual contact with the victim on the night of the murder. To me, this precludes his being a case for the innocence project. When the independent panel cried contamination with Knox and Sollecito, I felt this bolstered their not being at the crime scene. I thought this was the point, but apparently there are murky things i do not grasp....
 
No, it wasn't contaminated otherwise some of his evidence would have been excluded. That was actually my point. I am not really drawing any conclusions to the AK and RS appeal since indeed that is a different trial and now there is the C&V report. Still, it did come up and the Supreme Court concluded the evidence to be reliable. Everyone can think of it whatever they want :)
If Guede swore he was never there, I would be interested in the question of contamination. When a man has a history of unlawful entry and admits to having sex with a rape/murder victim the night she died, I lose interest in the finer points. :(
 
I don't know about that, SMK.

He makes some statements that are untrue, as I understand the case. Namely, you can't get DNA from crap. They got it from the toilet paper.

Anyways, I do believe that they were onto a black man early on, which is why I think they pressed AK. At the time, I think the only black man they could associate with MK was PL, so that's where the focus went. I think that, coupled with the misidentification of RS's tennis shoes, is what got them in trouble the night of Nov 5th. I think RS got scared out of his mind when they took his tennis shoes (from what I read somewhere) and he started saying stupid stuff, which we don't know what, to get the heat off himself. According to Nina's book, they were already in RS's apartment that night and they were arresting PL just as AK was putting pen to the first statement.

I think it happened just as the press reported it did, in terms of timeframes, because shortly after that, they released the information about the unknown suspect. Since they already knew they were looking for a black man, I think the lists of guests to the house became significant, in terms of who the 4th person could be. So that's how they got on RG's trail. Then the tests came back identifying him. Now, I do not know why his friend turned on him. It's always seemed voluntary in the retelling. But I have to wonder if police made him an offer that he couldn't refuse, which let to the skype call.
Thanks for this, and it angers me that Google News gives such a high ranking to Ground Report (which in turn makes me view the latter as a reliable source) when there is apparently no fact-checking. Did not know that fecal material had no DNA value, would have thought the opposite...I am sure PLE used their best tactics and offers to get Guede's friend to sing. Knox's mother thought Guede's arrest would mean Amanda's release, but of course this was wrong...
 
I see TJFMK has torn Burleigh and her book apart in a post dated today:
nburleigh.jpg





Nina Burleigh: View From A Broad Who Doesn’t Seem To Like Broads Or Being Abroad


In Burleigh’s shoddy book on the murder of Meredith Kercher, she gets the victim’s birthday wrong. But that’s not all she gets wrong. From what I can tell, Burleigh simply skips over much of the key evidence in favor of gossiping about and criticizing other journalists who have covered the case.

She is particularly hard on female journalists, which is odd given that she prides herself on being a modern feminist. I find it very telling, for example, that she indicates what Barbie Nadeau and Andrea Vogt’s husbands do for a living (one works for the UN and one is a university professor), but does not see fit to provide us with any information on what the wives of any of the male journalists do. The implication is clear: these two “females” took up writing as a sort of hobby after trailing behind their menfolk to Europe.

Worse, Burleigh notes that though they are both American born, they are more European in “style” and “craft” which, aside from being absolute nonsense, remains unsubstantiated by any analysis whatsoever. It amounts to saying “they’re sooooo European”. What does that mean? Well, once you know that Burleigh is a relentless and mindless cheerleader for the superiority of all things American, it becomes clear that what she means is that they are inferior journalists because all things European are inferior to all things American.

Burleigh also claims that what she calls Nadeau’s “cosmopolitan speech affect” is an attempt to hide her Middle American roots (in Burleigh’s words, her “rural South Dakota accent”). She says the “statuesque redhead” Vogt looks like she could play the role of Brenda Starr. In other words, Burleigh is trying to suggest that these two are imposters, merely playing at journalism by dressing up like a cartoon journalist or putting on airs and trying to talk like a big city slicker instead of a sharecropper.

In fact, Vogt got her undergraduate degree in political science from the University of Idaho and was awarded a Fulbright in journalism that took her to Germany. Her impressive credentials include being trilingual and published in English, German and Italian. I don’t know much about Nadeau’s academic training, but she writes for both Newsweek and the Daily Beast. And the excellent Christopher Dickey thinks quite highly of her.

Meanwhile, back to Burleigh and her seemingly endless supply of sour grapes. At one point in her book, she mentions an Italian female reporter, but only to comment on her boots! One starts to wonder what she has against women, especially her professional peers.
This very lengthy critique is continued at:
http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php although other than labeling her as anti-woman and a whiner, I fail to see where her excellent research skills have been debunked...
 
smk,

There is plenty of DNA (probably from intestinal epithelial cells) in fecal matter, but bacterial and/or human digestive enzymes called nucleases tend to degrade it rather quickly. Therefore, it is difficult to use. A blanket statement that it can never be used is an overstatement, IMO.

More generally, I think you can throw out all of the DNA evidence if you like, but with Guede's bloody handprint, there is still enough evidence left to convict him.
 
smk,

There is plenty of DNA (probably from intestinal epithelial cells), but bacterial and/or human digestive enzymes called nucleases tend to degrade it rather quickly. Therefore, it is difficult to use.

More generally, I think you can throw out all of the DNA evidence if you like, but with Guede's bloody handprint, there is still enough evidence left to convict him.
Ah, that explains it, thanks! :) Yes, and as he does admit to being there and to being sexual with the victim, it would seem DNA does in fact lose its importance in terms of contamination leading to eliminating him as a suspect, which is what i had conveyed and sherlock objected to.
 
smk,

There is plenty of DNA (probably from intestinal epithelial cells) in fecal matter, but bacterial and/or human digestive enzymes called nucleases tend to degrade it rather quickly. Therefore, it is difficult to use. A blanket statement that it can never be used is an overstatement, IMO.

More generally, I think you can throw out all of the DNA evidence if you like, but with Guede's bloody handprint, there is still enough evidence left to convict him.

Welcome to the forum! Rubber straight jackets are to your left, watch your mail for the rubberized three disk compilation soundtrack set!

:bananalama::bananalama::wagon::wagon::bananalama::bananalama:
 
Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito back in court on Monday 5th
. . . On Monday, further cross-examination of Carla Vecchiotti and her colleague Stefano Conti is scheduled, this time by Francesco Maresca, counsel for the Kercher family. He has expressed to the media in no uncertain terms his exasperation at the DNA report. For him, it was one-sided and incomplete. No doubt that’s something he’ll be repeating. He’ll also want to get his questionees to repeat the thing about contamination in the lab. But will he have anything up his sleeve that can do the same for the clasp as has apparently been done for the knife?

We can expect that questioning to be thorough, so there may not be time for much else. But, if there is, the court may here from personnel involved in the original forensic work. There may also be mention of Luciano Aviello, a Mafioso who previously testified that his brother had murdered Kercher, but has since said he was offered money for this testimony and he was lying. Aviello was never really a credible witness, so I don’t think this will have any impact on the appeal, but the court will want to get his retraction on record at some point.

There was a good article about the case in yesterday’s New York Times. The first thing that struck me about it was the title: “Mother’s Long Vigil for Seattle Woman Jailed in Murder”. I’m sure that must be the first headline about the case in nearly four years not to feature the word “Knox”, which may be a sign of how far out of the public consciousness the story has slipped. The second thing was a quote from Manuela Comodi apparently agreeing with me that the second most important element to the prosecution case, after the knife and clasp, is the evidence of a staged break-in at the crime scene.

I hope he is wrong regarding the 2 bolded points....:waitasec:

http://maundygregory.wordpress.com/...ffaele-sollecito-back-in-court-on-monday-5th/
 
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