MO - Grief & protests follow shooting of teen Michael Brown #22

[SStarr33]

I think that's the link many people are missing, and that's what I tried to explain in my novel (ha ha) to TheDuchess. It doesn't really matter what OW's motivation was. Not to the black residents of Ferguson. The reason it doesn't matter is because of the racial divide that has existed in the area for so long. They didn't feel like they needed to wait for "facts", they didn't need proof of a racial motive. Their history with local LE was proof enough. In their minds, this shooting was proof of what they already believed, which is that cops are hunting black boys in Ferguson. EVERYONE in that area- certainly in that apartment complex- is AA. The complex itself is low-income housing, so yes, there's a lot of crime, drug abuse and whatever else happens in areas where people aren't thriving economically. In a point of law, all that's relevant is whether OW was justified or not. In Ferguson, that's the least of the community's concerns. I'm not saying that's right, I'm just saying that's reality. And, if a determination is made that OW was justified, the residents will not believe it. They are completely convinced of what they believe happened, and the motivation behind it.

How many children had been killed by the Ferguson police prior to Mike Brown?

 

[CMac2]

We had a big box in our tutoring office. Students were allowed to drop their homework for various teachers inside the box and we would distribute it for them. They would often be afraid or embarrassed to be seen turning in assignments in class, so they'd drop it off with us, anonymously. Especially the boys. They'd be called 'Tom' if they turned in their work.

At the middle class school where I worked, it was the exact opposite. Students would be embarrassed by not doing their schoolwork or getting poor grades. In South Central, that was something to brag about. Saying you flunked a test and didnt do the term paper was a badge of honor. :facepalm:

That needs to change immediately. They used to bring in popular athletes from USC to try and say it was 'cool' to do well in school, but it only promoted the false hopes of becoming a star athlete, imo. They need to find a way to make the students take their education seriously. "My mama didnt graduate and she doin Okay" is what I heard a lot.

Exactly. We are working to break a multi-generational cycle. It's not like the parents of these kids thrived in their own childhoods, or had good, solid families to support them. They didn't, their children don't. We're asking them to emulate something they've never experienced, witnessed or seen, unfortunately. So we have to start from scratch and work from there. Not just show them a better way, but open their minds enough to register that there isn't just a better way- there's a better way for THEM, not just white people. It isn't easy. I know a man who decided to return to college after his high-paying Union job laid him off. He was unskilled, but had been making about $70k/yr working for the UAW at Chrysler. He told his father he was going back to school to get a skill, so he wouldn't be relegated to minimum wage jobs since he was no longer union. His father- HIS OWN FATHER- told him he was an idiot for wanting to go back to school. Literally said, "You want to make more money? Get a 2nd job. If that isn't enough, get a 3rd job." Whaaat?? Who aspires to working 3 jobs to put food on the table? But that's part of the climate, part of the mentality.

 

[MyBelle]

I think that's the link many people are missing, and that's what I tried to explain in my novel (ha ha) to TheDuchess. It doesn't really matter what OW's motivation was. Not to the black residents of Ferguson. The reason it doesn't matter is because of the racial divide that has existed in the area for so long. They didn't feel like they needed to wait for "facts", they didn't need proof of a racial motive. Their history with local LE was proof enough. In their minds, this shooting was proof of what they already believed, which is that cops are hunting black boys in Ferguson. EVERYONE in that area- certainly in that apartment complex- is AA. The complex itself is low-income housing, so yes, there's a lot of crime, drug abuse and whatever else happens in areas where people aren't thriving economically. In a point of law, all that's relevant is whether OW was justified or not. In Ferguson, that's the least of the community's concerns. I'm not saying that's right, I'm just saying that's reality. And, if a determination is made that OW was justified, the residents will not believe it. They are completely convinced of what they believe happened, and the motivation behind it.

According to the members of that community who spoke to the media, their primary concern has been with the thugs like Brown who were unemployed and laying around smoking dope all day with children running around unsupervised. That's their perception and reality. Outsiders who are making it about race instead are ignoring their perception and reality.

JMO

 

[Klood-N]

The concepts you're talking about as far as dysfunctional homes, learned helplessness, victim mentality are not unique by race or locale, though. We've discussed that here too. Many have to work up from less than ideal circumstances and we all face trials and challenges. Michael's story is being drowned out. And certainly almost no thought goes to the harm being done to Wilson and his family, and everyone else threatened, store owners, etc.

 

[CMac2]

According to the members of that community who spoke to the media, their primary concern has been with the thugs like Brown who were unemployed and laying around smoking dope all day with children running around unsupervised. That's their perception and reality. Outsiders who are making it about race instead are ignoring their perception and reality.

JMO

Remember again, there's a huge racial divide in Ferguson. People will say there are 2 Fergusons- white Ferguson and black Ferguson. No one's experiences should be disregarded. It has been extremely educational to hear the views of local white people vs. local black people. You wouldn't even know they are speaking on the same incident, if you were an outsider listening in. Other than the voting issue, which is where my passion currently lies, I think LE needs to better represent the community. I'm not speaking of black officers vs. white officers. I'm speaking of community officers who live in the community they serve. Ferguson's officers, for the most part, do not live in Ferguson. Therefore, it's possible they don't have the same level of commitment to the success of the community as they'd have if they were raising their own families there. It's easier to close your eyes to certain things when you don't have to go home to it at night.

 

[MyBelle]

I took part in many anti-war protest as a student at UC Berk in the early 70's. I sat down in the quad and I sat down in the registrars office, but when I saw the molotovs being filled with gas, I scurried out of there. I did not want to burn down anyones business, just to get my point across. It is hard to believe that 40 years later, we are still burning down our own neighborhoods.

After Kent State, my midwestern university told students we would be expelled from school if we participated in protests. That was a very effective way to end protests. Back then the National Guard was using real bullets and the protestors were predominantly white. The issue had nothing to do with race then just as this issue has nothing to do with race now.

JMO

 

[CMac2]

After Kent State, my midwestern university told students we would be expelled from school if we participated in protests. That was a very effective way to end protests. Back then the National Guard was using real bullets and the protestors were predominantly white. The issue had nothing to do with race then just as this issue has nothing to do with race now.

JMO

The issue may not have anything to do with race for you. Which is a great thing. For countless others, it has everything to do with race, and that fact has to be considered in order to fully realize the dynamics at play here.

 

[JLSChook]

I think I'll step out of this case until more information comes out about....Oh, I don't know...the actual case we used to be discussing.

Prayers for Officer Wilson.

 

[MyBelle]

Remember again, there's a huge racial divide in Ferguson. People will say there are 2 Fergusons- white Ferguson and black Ferguson. No one's experiences should be disregarded. It has been extremely educational to hear the views of local white people vs. local black people. You wouldn't even know they are speaking on the same incident, if you were an outsider listening in. Other than the voting issue, which is where my passion currently lies, I think LE needs to better represent the community. I'm not speaking of black officers vs. white officers. I'm speaking of community officers who live in the community they serve. Ferguson's officers, for the most part, do not live in Ferguson. Therefore, it's possible they don't have the same level of commitment to the success of the community as they'd have if they were raising their own families there. It's easier to close your eyes to certain things when you don't have to go home to it at night.

Sorry but I don't believe there is a racial divide in Ferguson any more or less than in any other city. My point is that the neighbors who complained about the thugs in the apartment complex are AA, not white. I also don't believe requiring a police officer to live there is wise just as I don't believe it is wise when teachers' children attend the same school in which they teach. It turns their children into targets and accusations of favoritism.

JMO

 

[Klood-N]

I don't think geography makes people more empathetic or devoted to their job anymore than skin color does. Character dictates that. Iirc, some here mentioned how community policing isn't a panacea as you get fewer applicants, it can be unsafe for LE's families, too expensive in some locales for police to afford, etc. Imagine if everyone knew where Darren lived just up the road while they were shouting "kill the police" and shooting. His little girl would not have been safe, IMO.

 

[katydid23]

Remember again, there's a huge racial divide in Ferguson. People will say there are 2 Fergusons- white Ferguson and black Ferguson. No one's experiences should be disregarded. It has been extremely educational to hear the views of local white people vs. local black people. You wouldn't even know they are speaking on the same incident, if you were an outsider listening in. Other than the voting issue, which is where my passion currently lies, I think LE needs to better represent the community. I'm not speaking of black officers vs. white officers. I'm speaking of community officers who live in the community they serve. Ferguson's officers, for the most part, do not live in Ferguson. Therefore, it's possible they don't have the same level of commitment to the success of the community as they'd have if they were raising their own families there. It's easier to close your eyes to certain things when you don't have to go home to it at night.

That does not happen much anymore, that a cop can raise his family in the same community where he works. Too many gangs and thugs looking for revenge. Would you want to arrest a gang member right down the block from where your kids were waiting for the school bus? Far too dangerous these days.
Also, it is not good to get too close to the people you are supposed to be 'objective' about. If you have BBQs with neighbors and your kids are all friends, then what happens when you go to a drug bust and the main dealer is your next door neighbor. Things get ugly, sticky, weird. And again, the kids get in the mix. Most ig cities are onboard with cops living in nearby communities instead of right where they work.

Would you want to be recognized everywhere you went with your family, if you arrested people all day?

 

[Klood-N]

I think I'll step out of this case until more information comes out about....Oh, I don't know...the actual case we used to be discussing.

Prayers for Officer Wilson.

You're right. This is getting into vague philosophies and hard to address without political views etc. Back to the case.

 

[CMac2]

That does not happen much anymore, that a cop can raise his family in the same community where he works. Too many gangs and thugs looking for revenge. Would you want to arrest a gang member right down the block from where your kids were waiting for the school bus? Far too dangerous these days.
Also, it is not good to get too close to the people you are supposed to be 'objective' about. If you have BBQs with neighbors and your kids are all friends, then what happens when you go to a drug bust and the main dealer is your next door neighbor. Things get ugly, sticky, weird. And again, the kids get in the mix. Most ig cities are onboard with cops living in nearby communities instead of right where they work.

Would you want to be recognized everywhere you went with your family, if you arrested people all day?

I'll back off for now. People are getting frustrated with the philosophical talk. I'll be around to answer whatever in the meantime.

 

[MyBelle]

The issue may not have anything to do with race for you. Which is a great thing. For countless others, it has everything to do with race, and that fact has to be considered in order to fully realize the dynamics at play here.

I doubt the elected federal politicians are among the countless others. I understand perfectly the "dynamics" at play. It has everything to do with politics and that's the way it will be resolved. The feds will greatly reduce the high concentration of recipients in Ferguson who are in subsidized housing who receive food stamps, childcare subsidy, heating assistance, ADC payments. That's the way it has been "solved" in other large metropolitan areas and that is the way it will be resolved in the Saint Louis area.

JMO

 

[tlcya]

I live in a racially diverse poor neighborhood. In the last ten years several substations have been set up next to retailers. The nighborhood officers work out of that substation when not patrolling and it increases their visibility and accessibility to our neighborhood. The residents and especially the children are beginning to become familiar with our nieghborhood officers. When not on a call they are out on these streets getting to know the citizens they police and protect. One particularly bad area in my neighborhood has convinced an officer to move into the neighborhood (rent free) to further this visible police presence.

I find it comforting to know these officers are close by and I think they are beginning to know the residents here and are familiar with who they are policing. So too are the residents becoming familiar with their officers. I have not seen a decrease in crime per se, but I have seen relationships and trust being built. I hope eventually it does pay off in a decrease in crime, but til then, I am simply happy to see the cops and the residents interacting in circumstances that aren't a crisis or a call.

 

[MyBelle]

I don't think geography makes people more empathetic or devoted to their job anymore than skin color does. Character dictates that. Iirc, some here mentioned how community policing isn't a panacea as you get fewer applicants, it can be unsafe for LE's families, too expensive in some locales for police to afford, etc. Imagine if everyone knew where Darren lived just up the road while they were shouting "kill the police" and shooting. His little girl would not have been safe, IMO.

I believe even if Officer Wilson lived in the community that he would have still told Brown and Johnson to get out of the street and they still would have refused.

 

[Klood-N]

Important point about Michael's case:

Michael Brown’s mother, Lesley McSpadden, said she never experienced any tension with the Ferguson Police Department.

Her son, who was shot and killed by a Ferguson police officer, was never in trouble with the police and did not have any negative interaction with police in Ferguson.

http://stlouis.cbslocal.com/2014/08/13/browns-mother-we-dont-know-what-happened/

 

[krimekat]

I believe even if Officer Wilson lived in the community that he would have still told Brown and Johnson to get out of the street and they still would have refused.

there are many reasons that rules were modified to allow LEOs to live outside the communities they patrolled

 

[Lovejac]

https://twitter.com/Kirkman/status/514185635171545089

 

[sonjay]

I'll back off for now. People are getting frustrated with the philosophical talk. I'll be around to answer whatever in the meantime.

It's not so much that people are frustrated with the philosophical talk. It's that we're not supposed to talk politics here. The mods have been very lenient these past few pages, and there is indeed a great deal of interest in the political & philosophical aspects. It's just that rules are rules, and we're supposed to follow them even if we find them inconvenient.

Edited to add: I do thank you for all of the information you've provided. You've broadened our perspective on the situation, and that's helpful.