Mothers and Daughters, in this case.

[LCoastMom]

I am new .....this is my first post.

I am pretty interested in the Mother/Daughter aspect of this! My screen name has to do with having an affinity for the BAD Mother/Daughter relationship. Luckily, for everyone, I did not have a child to bring into the horrible situation I/we had. I agree with the poster who thinks both mother and daughter are "borderline" (Borderline Personality Disorder). I recognize it!

As a latecomer...can someone give me a link to a synopsis of events that is clear and concise? I don't understand a few things about early events.

Thank you!

:Welcome-12-june:

At the top of the forum there are 3 sticky sub forums. Go to 3rd one (Anthony case sticky threads) then pick the "Time line thread" this should help you.

 

[Maja]

I am new .....this is my first post.

I am pretty interested in the Mother/Daughter aspect of this! My screen name has to do with having an affinity for the BAD Mother/Daughter relationship. Luckily, for everyone, I did not have a child to bring into the horrible situation I/we had. I agree with the poster who thinks both mother and daughter are "borderline" (Borderline Personality Disorder). I recognize it!

As a latecomer...can someone give me a link to a synopsis of events that is clear and concise? I don't understand a few things about early events.

Thank you!

You recognize it. Please help me understand the queues.

 

[wallflower67]

Anyway, my whole point is this. Was the *forcing* of KC to keep the baby a moral or religious issue or was it CONTROL? I vote the latter.

Edit to add: I completely respect the people who don't believe in terminating a pregnancy. 100%.

I also wonder, if KC was really that headstrong she would've gone ahead and done it anyway. Legally she didn't have to tell Cindy. So KC was in no way independent, physically, emotionally, financially or psychologically and she was no real rebel. She didn't know her own mind. The psychological entanglement was deep and wide between those two.

I wondered that too....Casey seems wimpy that she didn't have an abortion. She doesn't seem to me like the type that would have any qualms about that...afterall, she did kill Caylee when the poor child was 2.

Maybe she was just too lazy to make the appiontment at the clinic. Either way, Caylee is dead.

I wonder if a higher power intervened. Caylee has obviously affected us all. There is something that is to be learned from all of this. Maybe that was God's plan for Caylee.

 

[not_my_kids]

I don't know why so many seem to think she was a teenaged mother, like she was 16 and still in high school. If she was pregnant when she was 19 she must have been 20 when she had Caylee or close to it. She's 23 now and Caylee would have been 3.

Thank you. I have been asking this since the beginning. It's not like she was trying to juggle the pressures of school and work and family and parenting and friends. She was trying to balance the work of lying and dealing with her parents. Oh yeah, and figuring out how to get her parents to take her daughter, that's about it.
There are a lot of women that have their kids at 17, that act more mature than casey did even at 20 something. That one I can say from experience.

 

[wallflower67]

I wonder if KC thought of Caylee as an annoying little sister she had to babysit. I agree with a PP that it seemed that they never bonded. If she had PPD, it can be difficult to bond. I know from experience, as I had it twice, and KNEW that I didn't have the bond with the last two babies that I had with my first. But I'm also in my late 30s and have a network of caring family and co-workers who noticed a change in my personality due to the depression.

Who wouldn't be depressed in her shoes- living at home, watching everyone else live their life, while she sits at home and PMs and texts people, while watching her daughter.

MOO

Didn't she say she had a miscarriage back in March or so? That would have coincided with her change in types of friends, etc. Increased partying (old friends said she was a good mom). She could have post-partem psychosis which could account for the cold demeaner.

I had PPP. Fortunately was able to bond with my daughter despite voices tellling me I had killed her. (not TO kill her, but that i already had...which was quite devastating!) My ex took me to a psychiatrist within the first week of my daughter's birth, and I was successfully treated. I was not left alone with my daughter for a month, well after I stopped hearing things that I knew weren't there! I have never had anything like that since.

 

[wallflower67]

I hate sounding like a broken record, but there are many borderliners that don't kill their children or do anything illegal, they just have a bad sense of self, along with all the other symptoms. IMO, they are not sociopaths ..

My dh's ex-wife has borderline. I could see her killing one of the kids in a fit of rage when they were younger. Many calls to LE and CPS and in court a lot for custody issues. The kids are teens now and can defend themselves.

My mom is borderline too. I think the self-absorbtion can lead to violence when the kids won't behave, or be the "perfect child". (temper tantrums, imposing on mom's freedom, etc.)

However, I think most borderlines would feel remorse and not dump their kid's body in the woods.

 

[impatientredhead]

My dh's ex-wife has borderline. I could see her killing one of the kids in a fit of rage when they were younger. Many calls to LE and CPS and in court a lot for custody issues. The kids are teens now and can defend themselves.

My mom is borderline too. I think the self-absorbtion can lead to violence when the kids won't behave, or be the "perfect child". (temper tantrums, imposing on mom's freedom, etc.)

However, I think most borderlines would feel remorse and not dump their kid's body in the woods.

Child of a violent borderline here too, and I can definitely see my mother killing a toddler in a fit of rage. I can also see her acting like a loon in the press ala Cindy though too and completely not getting it. A complete lack of boundaries is what is wrong in most households like this. I frequently find that what makes people so mad about the Anthony's is they lack boundaries.

 

[LCoastMom]

In this case, not only should CA NOT have forced KC to keep the baby (if indeed that happened - I'm not sure we know that for a fact) but as a responsible mom and a mature adult she should have counseled KC about her options in the 21st century -- as KC was clearly not mom material. Possibly she would never have been the type of person to have children. I never had children because it didn't seem right to me. Not everyone is made for that.

It's possible and quite likely, though, that CA didn't even know KC was pregnant until she was too far along (and I'm not buying as late as 7 months, but still past the first month or so)

Anyway, my whole point is this. Was the *forcing* of KC to keep the baby a moral or religious issue or was it CONTROL? I vote the latter.

First I think it is highly probable CA didn't know KC was pregnant until 7 mos. Who would take the ridicule from their entire family, by saying their daughter is not pregnant when in fact you know she is. This isn't 1950, pregnancy is no longer hidden as a shameful secret. If KC said no the answer must be no. CA wears blinders where KC is concerned. A few years back I worked in Maternal Health. Both obstetrics and new born nursery. More then once we had a young girl come to the hospital, full term in active labor. Accompanied by their shocked parents who didn't know the daughter was pregnant until she went into labor.

How far along KC was before she suspected something was up we don't know, but since she was 7 mos along before seeing a doctor, abortion wasn't an option.

KC wasn't a scared little girl when Caylee was born, she was a 19 year old, young adult. Whether to keep the baby or not was not CA's choice. And to say KC wasn't mom material, we don't know what she was like at 19. Most 19 year olds don't appear to be mom material, but most rise to the occasion.

Out of all the interviews both LE and media, 1 person said KC wanted Caylee put up for adoption. Just 1. Everyone else has said; they never heard KC say that or no KC never wanted to have Caylee adopted, she was very wanted. So why is it that this keeps coming up? IMO reading the interview with Kio is almost as bad as reading a KC interview.

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/1080376/...eleased-part-3
(bottom of page 61/113)

Personally I don't believe this was ever an issue. KC was pregnant, KC decided
to keep the baby. We know CA had seen a therapist who encouraged her to go for custody of Caylee. As a mom, there is no way I would wait 3 years for my daughter to get it together. I believe KC's bad behavior was escalating, what she was doing well when Caylee was an infant was quickly disappearing and CA knew it was only a matter of time before she went too far. She knew her daughter was headed for trouble, she had no control over what KC was doing and she had to protect Caylee. CA is going to live the rest of her days consumed by guilt that she didn't act soon enough to save her precious grand baby.

 

[Hermione]

Lots of very good and thoughtful posts in this thread- I am just logging back on and hope to catch up. (BTW I'm not trying to blame a generation for something like this- I myself and closer to Casey's generation than Cindy's, kind of in the middle...and I know a lot of grandparents who either raise the babies OR who babysit so much that the kid is in custody of the parents but spends most of the time with the grandparents- I'm not saying this is a bad thing. I think I didn't articulate what I was trying to say very well--will try to when I have time...I've beein wondering if it plays into the events that caused this situation by being a part of it since CA and KC had the fight. I personally think someone who kills their child was either born a sociopath or has a major mental illness).

Thanks for all the great replies! Will BBL..

 

[Hermione]

Oh, one more thing. I need to exlain what I meant by confused. LOL...I didn't mean that Caylee was confused over who her mother was *because* CA had a big role in raising her and KC was still there too. I meant it seems --or maybe not seems, maybe I am just wondering due to my background- that CA was maybe....(thinking on how to word this)...

Ok it's not that CA and KC were taking care of Caylee at the same time but maybe that there was arguing and headbutting going on, and Caylee was SEEING the conflicts between CA and KC- this is not the same as some of the cases mentioned where grandparents raise their grandkids or babysit them all the time while parents work or do whatever....the distinction is if Caylee was seeing CA and KC in conflict. Did Caylee see the fights? Did she see Nan scold or criticize Mommy's parenting, or see Mommy argue with Nan over her? etc. THAT's what I mean- not that having grandparents actively involved in raising a kid and spending a large time with them while they have parents too confusing them. If there is a conflict, and bickering, and Mom doesn't want responsibility, and Grandma wants to straighten mom out, and it turns into a kind of power play, with grandma stepping in while Mommy's there but not doing her job, and taking over certain roles. Maybe this makes more sense as to what I meant?

And this alone wouldn't cause KC to snap, I mean, the way I see it, she could have stepped up to the plate and made herself be a good mother, but she seemed to want to party. I can't imagine called my kid a snot nose brat or little snot or whatever it was KC called Caylee when someone asked her to go to do something and she said "But I have my kid....."

KC is definitely the one to blame here I just wonder what Caylee saw.

 

[Hermione]

Child of a violent borderline here too, and I can definitely see my mother killing a toddler in a fit of rage. I can also see her acting like a loon in the press ala Cindy though too and completely not getting it. A complete lack of boundaries is what is wrong in most households like this. I frequently find that what makes people so mad about the Anthony's is they lack boundaries.

(My bolding).
YES this is what I saying- 2 parts. KC wasn't rising to the occasion and doing her best for Caylee, and it seems there were boundary issues going on with CA. This is not excusing anything about KC but I do think it's wrong when a grandparent intercedes on a parent in front of the kid- but NO DOUBT here, KC needed straightening out.

This whole situation is distressing.

 

[concentric]

Wow - maybe people have said this before, but, I haven't seen it. I think this might just be the main motive. We have talked about the getting back at Cindy, etc., but, wow, does this make sense. Caylee could have or been about to say "no Zannie, I sleep in the car when I am with Mommie."

Hi Medusa, and yes, people on here have said this before, not me, but several people about the fact that Caylee was becoming that independent truth teller.

 

[OneLostGrl]

I would sum up my feelings in this short way:

In a lifelong battle for control and supremacy between Cindy and Casey, little Caylee ended up being "collateral damage." How tragic. How inexcuseable.

Bold is mine.

Yet how true.

 

[Oakley]

The biggest thing for me is that the men in Cindy, Casey, and Caylee's life are all marginal, stick figures. None of them seem to have any respect for the husband-father role. Whether this is because the men are weak, or perceived to be weak, or are not good providers, or in Caylee's dad's case, just not in evidence, I don't know. The casual cruelty of the way the women (and Lee, too,)denigrated George on Father's Day has always bothered me. Casey seems to have been determined to snare someone to take care of her, but seems contemptuous of them at the same time. I suppose having a dominant female figure would skew your world view of male/female relationships but the disregard for men in general, using them like puppets, seems constant. Why would you deny your daughter the right of having a father unless you felt that their input was meaningless? Also, Casey seems so worried about disappointing her mother, but totally ignored her father. What does this say about the example that Cindy showed her?

Excellent post. Yes, non-existent and impotent men played a role here. No finger pointing, simply observing.

 

[Oakley]

KC is young, I can't imagine having a baby at her age, when none of my friends had a baby either. So here she is, stuck in that tiny one floor house that is decorated in her mom's style, even KC's bedroom. Where are the posters of boys on her walls, her cds and collections of stuff people her age have? It just seems very odd, they whole thing. Who lives like that? What did she do during the day? Sit on that uncomfortable-looking furniture? Where were the toys Caylee played with? My kids have laundry baskets full of toys or toyboxes in every room our the house. The whole situation is just odd.

Let me tell you Casey had it pretty good, IMO. I was just a few years older than Casey when I had my first child(ren) - twins. The marriage didn't last and I found myself a single mother with no assets, little finances, and very little to no support system. It was sink or swim. How I would have loved a nice home and family such as Casey had! Sure Cindy got tough with her in the end but she provided financial support for both Casey and Caylee, and appeared to babysit pretty much on demand. Not that any of that did Casey any good, but it is far more than a lot of young, single mothers have.

 

[Kat]

I would sum up my feelings in this short way:

In a lifelong battle for control and supremacy between Cindy and Casey, little Caylee ended up being "collateral damage." How tragic. How inexcuseable.

Hello, I am new to this site and I have been reading for quite a while (before this case). I posted this idea to B11's blog on myspace (this is my first post here on WS) and thought that I wanted to share it here as well. Friday sums it up so clearly. I had a thought today about this relationship between CA and KC.
I was reminded of the story of Solomon and the two mothers. I thought of the one mother who stood before him that relented when there was a threat of physical harm to that child.
Caylee had no Mother in the truest sense. What she had were two women, each so absorbed and so enmeshed with one another that she became a pawn, so to speak. She became a way for each of these women to manipulate and control the other. Each woman, claimed ownership yet, neither relinqueshed their power of ownership in the name of the child.
I'm not saying that CA or KC did not love Caylee in their own way, to the best of their abilities. I do not have a formal education in psychology or in the dynamics of interpersonal relationships but I,in my own opinion, think that Caylee was seen as a ways and means to exact a wanted response between the two women. I do not think that they thought "well if I do this with Caylee" then I will get this from the other. Instead...this ongoing war, this power struggle of immense proportion, between these two women, was so encompassing that all other players were peripheral, even sweet precious Caylee.
These are just my thoughts and ideas. This particular relationship fascinates me, much in the way a train wreck coming down the tracks would.

 

[OneLostGrl]

Some links for anyone who is interested. Though these began as geared more toward work related issues, they define wonderfuly IMO the mindset involved in living in a personality disordered home and being raised by personality disordered parents. As they are bullies with their tools of manipulation, deception, lying, sneaking, splitting, anger, lack of borders and creating conflict between others.

http://www.bullyonline.org/workbully/serial.htm#Denial

http://www.bullyonline.org/related/family.htm

Anyway, theres some links (that lead to many more links) for anyone who is interested in perhaps better understanding the dynamics involved.

 

[OneLostGrl]

Let me tell you Casey had it pretty good, IMO. I was just a few years older than Casey when I had my first child(ren) - twins. The marriage didn't last and I found myself a single mother with no assets, little finances, and very little to no support system. It was sink or swim. How I would have loved a nice home and family such as Casey had! Sure Cindy got tough with her in the end but she provided financial support for both Casey and Caylee, and appeared to babysit pretty much on demand. Not that any of that did Casey any good, but it is far more than a lot of young, single mothers have.

What usually happens in situations such as this though is the mother has one more thing to hold above her childs head, one more way her child is no good. Most of us who grew up this way have learned that we would much rather live in the streets before going to them for help because of how they devalue and be-little their children and then by default, their grandchildren.

They love to come to our rescue because it gives them a chance to remind us we are .

ETA- ok, I'm going shopping w/ my son- so I'll shut up on the topic for a little while LOL!

 

[suzet]

Let me tell you Casey had it pretty good, IMO. I was just a few years older than Casey when I had my first child(ren) - twins. The marriage didn't last and I found myself a single mother with no assets, little finances, and very little to no support system. It was sink or swim. How I would have loved a nice home and family such as Casey had! Sure Cindy got tough with her in the end but she provided financial support for both Casey and Caylee, and appeared to babysit pretty much on demand. Not that any of that did Casey any good, but it is far more than a lot of young, single mothers have.

:clap:

 

[azwriter]

Personally, I'm more than pro-choice, I'm pro-abortion if the circumstances warrant.

In this case, not only should CA NOT have forced KC to keep the baby (if indeed that happened - I'm not sure we know that for a fact) but as a responsible mom and a mature adult she should have counseled KC about her options in the 21st century -- as KC was clearly not mom material. Possibly she would never have been the type of person to have children. I never had children because it didn't seem right to me. Not everyone is made for that.

It's possible and quite likely, though, that CA didn't even know KC was pregnant until she was too far along (and I'm not buying as late as 7 months, but still past the first month or so)

And I do believe KC was *terrified* of her mom in a twisted kind of way - Even though CA was permissive in some aspects she also ruled with an iron hand. Maybe she was only permissive when she could be the fixer. She didn't seem to be too kind to KC on a day to day basis... only when she got into trouble... so she could storm in and take control. "I can say and do anything I want to my own children but don't anyone DARE do the same" kind of thing.

Anyway, my whole point is this. Was the *forcing* of KC to keep the baby a moral or religious issue or was it CONTROL? I vote the latter.

Edit to add: I completely respect the people who don't believe in terminating a pregnancy. 100%.

I also wonder, if KC was really that headstrong she would've gone ahead and done it anyway. Legally she didn't have to tell Cindy. So KC was in no way independent, physically, emotionally, financially or psychologically and she was no real rebel. She didn't know her own mind. The psychological entanglement was deep and wide between those two.

Jennyb, I wholeheartly agree with your statement that forcing KC to keep Caylee was control on Cindy's part. I think it was also a form a punishment. When I was pregnant before I got married, I did everything I could to hide it from my mother. After I married and my first child was born she came to visit me and announced I would receive no help from her and that my baby should have died. (He was born by emergency C Section when I was 7 months along.) She had this saying "You made your bed, now lay in it." I spend over 20 yeas believing I was the most terrible person in the world.
I think Cindy did not want Casey to get off easy by putting her child up for adoption. Instead Cindy was going to make Casey pay for her mistake. This tears my heart out. How awful for Caylee to be a brought into this world as a method of punishment.
And amid this type of treatment, Casey would never form a mother/daughter bond with her baby Caylee. That's certainly no excuse for killing your child, but I lay a lot of blame at Cindy's feet for Casey's moral values and her behavior.
JMO