Mothers and Daughters, in this case.

[TURBOTHINK]

KC is young, I can't imagine having a baby at her age, when none of my friends had a baby either. So here she is, stuck in that tiny one floor house that is decorated in her mom's style, even KC's bedroom. Where are the posters of boys on her walls, her cds and collections of stuff people her age have? It just seems very odd, they whole thing. Who lives like that? What did she do during the day? Sit on that uncomfortable-looking furniture? Where were the toys Caylee played with? My kids have laundry baskets full of toys or toyboxes in every room our the house. The whole situation is just odd.

LOL - I had two at her age and completed college with them hanging on my legs. Some women are not meant to have children like some men are not good fathers.

I always put my kids first. My first husband and I both traveled in our careers, so we hired a nanny. (real one too) When I was home, I homeschooled my older children and even after I divorced I scheduled my work schedule around their schedules. The older ones graduated with honors from college. It was not easy being a single parent and maintaining a home for them, but I did not feel trapped or like I was missing something as KC obviously did.

My Mother was a career person herself, so I did not have a babysitter in the family. I only had brothers for siblings, and although they taught my sons to play golf, they were not available for sitting. It never occurred to me that I needed a family member to take over my responsibilities.

It never crossed my mind that I could move back into my parent's home, although they had a very large home and would have loved to have had us. I bought my own first home at age at age 20, and valued my friends and family as an emotional support system and mentors but not as my "means of financial support."

KC seems to be blunted in her emotional age. She seems to be stuck at about age 13. I know kids get stuck at the age they start using drugs and do not mature past that age emotionally, but other things can also cause that type of lack of maturing. That is why I have always suspected some type of sexual abuse.

I do believe my generation was raised to be more mature coming out of high school and expect to work and support a family. I don't know any of my friends who have not been successful in a career or as homemakers. I do not know any mothers who did not take care of their children. (although I am sure there were some) Today's kids seem to lack the maturity and the wisdom required for living successfully. They don't seem to know how to leave their parents, and like not having to fully support themselves. That was unheard of in my generation. It is not about college, it is about being happy in all circumstances. I don't know it is this "instant gratification" many expect or just an overall lack of common sense, but there is something not right in many of these young people.

 

[azwriter]

After reading through three pages of this thread about Mother and Daughter relationships, I can now see in my circle of friends, it is not unusual that all of my women (and some men) friends dislike their mother.
I'll have to ask my daughter to give me a report card after reading all these posts. I hope I make the honor roll.
jmo

 

[kaelieanne]

This post is simply recentism and biased against this generation. Every generation has it's fair share of sick killers. Fillicide (killing of one's own children) has been at a constant rate in the US for the past 50 years.
This case has just simply been widely publicized.

Every week a parent kills his own child. (Not including abortion.)

It's not this generation, it's not young people, it's not kids who party or like to drink, young mothers or promiscuous girls. It is Casey Anthony (if she did it).

There are thousands of drinking, promiscuous young mothers that don't do this, please keep that in mind.

The only reason I say this is because I want people to avoid blaming one person's actions on their generation. There are messed up people in every generation, in every country, in every place on earth. Rates do vary but my point is that the case should be treated like an individual case.

There are some exceptional young mothers. Even teens. No, I dont think it's a good thing or smart to have kids when you're young, but it doesn't guarantee the child will be abused or have a bad childhood. Having a kid at a young age doesn't make you kill your kids. It makes it harder to get into college and get a career.

What made Casey Anthony kill Caylee is inside of her. I think even if she had Caylee at an older age, there would be the same chance of this happening.


EDIT - I do not believe that a child is confused by a grandparent and a parent raising them. Before the modern era, this was common place, and before industrialization and cities, it was almost necessary.

Bolding mine. This reminds me of a quote from Socrates a zillion years ago in speaking about the younger generation: "The young people of today think of nothing but themselves. They have no reverence for parents or old age. They are impatient of allrestraint. They talk as if they alone knew everything and what passesfor wisdom with us is foolishness with them. As for girls, they areforward, immodest and unwomanly in speech, behaviour and dress."

There is truly nothing new under the sun.

 

[kaelieanne]

Some links for anyone who is interested. Though these began as geared more toward work related issues, they define wonderfuly IMO the mindset involved in living in a personality disordered home and being raised by personality disordered parents. As they are bullies with their tools of manipulation, deception, lying, sneaking, splitting, anger, lack of borders and creating conflict between others.

http://www.bullyonline.org/workbully/serial.htm#Denial

http://www.bullyonline.org/related/family.htm

Anyway, theres some links (that lead to many more links) for anyone who is interested in perhaps better understanding the dynamics involved.

Thank you so much for these links, OneLostGrl. I find this entire subject fascinating.

 

[txsvicki]

Cindy may have some problems, but I don't believe that she has any sort of full blown personality disorder that would affect her daughter this much. Cindy has an education, a longtime career, a very longterm marriage, and seems to dote on her parents. The way she has taken care of others just doesn't jive with personality disorder IMO. Casey, on the other hand, has all the symptoms of mental illness and a terrible personality disorder. I believe she is responsible for her own actions and had every opportunity in the world and support to not do what she did. The way Casey manipulated, stole from, and lied to her parents is just awful, and it was probably inevitable that a big argument would break out in the home.

 

[OneLostGrl]

I hate sounding like a broken record, but there are many borderliners that don't kill their children or do anything illegal, they just have a bad sense of self, along with all the other symptoms. IMO, they are not sociopaths ..

ITA! Though I do believe Cindy has a massive amount of borderline traits that she has learned to keep "under control" with narcissistic and "motherly" behaviors (the rescuer- if there is no fixing to be had she'll creates the drama so she can make herself feel better by cleaning up the mess). Outsiders often see this type of person as selfless and the rest of the family as selfish and dysfunctional. Cindy is practically textbook BPD mother, George, her enabler- IMO.

However, as far as Casey goes, what she has allowed herself to become goes far deeper than BPD. I see traits of several personality disorders in Casey but she is far more "psychopathic" than "borderline" in her behaviors. IMO she does not fit into any one diagnostic code. But make no mistake, she allowed herself to become what she is.

Cindy's spoon feeding Casey the Cindy kool-aid all these years didn't make her a murderer, Casey did that all by herself. (unless of course Cindy was involved which I do not know to be the case).

 

[OneLostGrl]

Cindy may have some problems, but I don't believe that she has any sort of full blown personality disorder that would affect her daughter this much. Cindy has an education, a longtime career, a very longterm marriage, and seems to dote on her parents. The way she has taken care of others just doesn't jive with personality disorder IMO. Casey, on the other hand, has all the symptoms of mental illness and a terrible personality disorder. I believe she is responsible for her own actions and had every opportunity in the world and support to not do what she did. The way Casey manipulated, stole from, and lied to her parents is just awful, and it was probably inevitable that a big argument would break out in the home.

I disagree. One of the issues involved in Personality disorders is attention seeking behaviors. Doting on and taking care of others gives a person who otherwise has no self-esteem, something to feel good about, a reason to gain praise. It also keeps people dependent upon them. Have you never heard of Munchausen Syndrome?? It is a personality disorder.

Cindy is a classic rescuer who appears to outsiders as selflessly reliable and dependable. She also happens to be quite good with feigning (lying to polce but when they call her ono it she cries saying she is a grieving grandmother, that she hasn't slept or ate in days etc.), manipulation, deception, distorting peoples perceptions (ya know how people here seem to notice that everyone that comes in contact with the woman starts believing crazy-off the wall things. How many times have we heard "OMG, did ___ drink the koolaid too?!) going on attack of anyone who she feels betrayed her (take Tim Miller and LP for example. She loved 'em until they didn't do what she wanted, when she wanted it. Then it became an outright smear campaign).

There were some people who had crappy things to say about Rick, Cindy's brother, after those emails of the family came out. My thoughts (and I'm willing to bet the thoughts of some others who lived the first half of their lives in homes like this) were "what did she do to him? To me he sounds like a tired out Lee- what Lee may have ended up sounding like years from now had Casey not killed Caylee and ended up in prison.. and he had to constantly deal with this kind of BS from her.

Anyway..

ETA link in case of debate on these issues.

http://www.bullyonline.org/workbully/attent.htm#Methods

http://www.angelfire.com/vt/rcwn/Pageforty.html

 

[Oakley]

What usually happens in situations such as this though is the mother has one more thing to hold above her childs head, one more way her child is no good. Most of us who grew up this way have learned that we would much rather live in the streets before going to them for help because of how they devalue and be-little their children and then by default, their grandchildren.

They love to come to our rescue because it gives them a chance to remind us we are .

ETA- ok, I'm going shopping w/ my son- so I'll shut up on the topic for a little while LOL!

A vicious cycle.

ETA: You have a lot of insight into dysfunctional relationships. I appreciate your sharing your life experiences.:blowkiss:

 

[affinity]

You recognize it. Please help me understand the queues.

Not sure I can adequately explain..but I will tell you I was raised by a borderline Mother.
I only put it together that she was borderline when I reached my 50's.
She was never officially diagnosed.

By the time I was KC's age:

I flunked high school
I was a compulsive liar (and didn't know why)
I couldn't seem to hold a job
I lived in a dream world (where I wanted to be famous)
I alternately felt superior and then lower than dirt
I was desperate for male attention
I "avoided" unpleasant things and ignored things that I "hoped" would go away

Unless you have been raised by someone as bizarre as my Mother and/or (apparently) CA.. there isn't going to be an adequate description of the dominance/dependence dynamic. I do remember feeling numb and often in a dreamworld where I thought things would just go away if I ignored them. Doesn't that sound just like KC to you?
I got away from my Mother so I have led a relatively normal life (after I straightened myself out). I'll tell you something really important too.....I am almost a thousand percent sure that my Mother was the way she was because she was a victim of incest.

 

[TURBOTHINK]

I disagree. One of the issues involved in Personality disorders is attention seeking behaviors. Doting on and taking care of others gives a person who otherwise has no self-esteem, something to feel good about, a reason to gain praise. It also keeps people dependent upon them. Have you never heard of Munchausen Syndrome?? It is a personality disorder.

Cindy is a classic rescuer who appears to outsiders as selflessly reliable and dependable. She also happens to be quite good with feigning (lying to polce but when they call her ono it she cries saying she is a grieving grandmother, that she hasn't slept or ate in days etc.), manipulation, deception, distorting peoples perceptions (ya know how people here seem to notice that everyone that comes in contact with the woman starts believing crazy-off the wall things. How many times have we heard "OMG, did ___ drink the koolaid too?!) going on attack of anyone who she feels betrayed her (take Tim Miller and LP for example. She loved 'em until they didn't do what she wanted, when she wanted it. Then it became an outright smear campaign).

There were some people who had crappy things to say about Rick, Cindy's brother, after those emails of the family came out. My thoughts (and I'm willing to bet the thoughts of some others who lived the first half of their lives in homes like this) were "what did she do to him? To me he sounds like a tired out Lee- what Lee may have ended up sounding like years from now had Casey not killed Caylee and ended up in prison.. and he had to constantly deal with this kind of BS from her.

Anyway..

ETA link in case of debate on these issues.

http://www.bullyonline.org/workbully/attent.htm#Methods

http://www.angelfire.com/vt/rcwn/Pageforty.html

I so totally agree with you on her "messiah complex." She received all of her self worth from others. She lied to get what she wanted others to perceive. Her entire personality is based on how others perceive her.

She is person who has formed a habit of "creating" crisis only to later "rescue" or "save" the poor helpless soul upon whom the crisis has been perpetrated. This has shown to be played out over and over in just what we have seen in their interactions.

In my mind she created this crisis and then waited on KC to react. She just did not realize the extent KC would react this time. She planned it to be different, with her rescuing KC after she failed. That would make her the messiah again, but KC trumped her card this time. She ended the game by killing Caylee the one CA valued the most in the family.

 

[not_my_kids]

Not sure I can adequately explain..but I will tell you I was raised by a borderline Mother.
I only put it together that she was borderline when I reached my 50's.
She was never officially diagnosed.

By the time I was KC's age:

I flunked high school
I was a compulsive liar (and didn't know why)
I couldn't seem to hold a job
I lived in a dream world (where I wanted to be famous)
I alternately felt superior and then lower than dirt
I was desperate for male attention
I "avoided" unpleasant things and ignored things that I "hoped" would go away

Unless you have been raised by someone as bizarre as my Mother and/or (apparently) CA.. there isn't going to be an adequate description of the dominance/dependence dynamic. I do remember feeling numb and often in a dreamworld where I thought things would just go away if I ignored them. Doesn't that sound just like KC to you?
I got away from my Mother so I have led a relatively normal life (after I straightened myself out). I'll tell you something really important too.....I am almost a thousand percent sure that my Mother was the way she was because she was a victim of incest.

I took it to calling it "I hate you, don't leave me" syndrome. With my mother and I it was an issue of "crazy is contagious". I put that one in quotes because I don't think it really is, but when you live with the nutso behavior for so long, you are never really sure of what the real world is. There is one world that you live in at home, another outside the house, and sometimes another that you create inside your head, because everything is controllable in that world.

I didn't flunk out of high school, I walked away and dropped out with a 3.7 average.
I also could hold a job and had no problem with my kids, (first one at 17) but I did tend to avoid everything else that was unpleasant.
Just about everything else you described is me, up until a few years ago.

Regardless of caseys upbringing, I could be a little more sympathetic if her mother was like mine, but I still don't believe that it excuses her in any way. Having a bad parent is no excuse for being a bad parent. IMO.

 

[OneLostGrl]

Not sure I can adequately explain..but I will tell you I was raised by a borderline Mother.
I only put it together that she was borderline when I reached my 50's.
She was never officially diagnosed.

By the time I was KC's age:

I flunked high school
I was a compulsive liar (and didn't know why)
I couldn't seem to hold a job
I lived in a dream world (where I wanted to be famous)
I alternately felt superior and then lower than dirt
I was desperate for male attention
I "avoided" unpleasant things and ignored things that I "hoped" would go away

Unless you have been raised by someone as bizarre as my Mother and/or (apparently) CA.. there isn't going to be an adequate description of the dominance/dependence dynamic. I do remember feeling numb and often in a dreamworld where I thought things would just go away if I ignored them. Doesn't that sound just like KC to you?
I got away from my Mother so I have led a relatively normal life (after I straightened myself out). I'll tell you something really important too.....I am almost a thousand percent sure that my Mother was the way she was because she was a victim of incest.

:blowkiss: Good for you, sounds like you know yourself and have "done the work" in changing your behaviors that is a wonderful thing!

I just love success stories. Reinforces for society the fact that these types of people do have insight into their behaviors.. that their behaviors are something they choose to allow to stay a part of them.

 

[OneLostGrl]

Thank you so much for these links, OneLostGrl. I find this entire subject fascinating.

Me too in case ya can't already tell. LOL

 

[OneLostGrl]

I took it to calling it "I hate you, don't leave me" syndrome. With my mother and I it was an issue of "crazy is contagious". I put that one in quotes because I don't think it really is, but when you live with the nutso behavior for so long, you are never really sure of what the real world is. There is one world that you live in at home, another outside the house, and sometimes another that you create inside your head, because everything is controllable in that world.

I didn't flunk out of high school, I walked away and dropped out with a 3.7 average.
I also could hold a job and had no problem with my kids, (first one at 17) but I did tend to avoid everything else that was unpleasant.
Just about everything else you described is me, up until a few years ago.

Regardless of caseys upbringing, I could be a little more sympathetic if her mother was like mine, but I still don't believe that it excuses her in any way. Having a bad parent is no excuse for being a bad parent. IMO.

I agree 1 million %.

 

[wallflower67]

Not sure I can adequately explain..but I will tell you I was raised by a borderline Mother.
I only put it together that she was borderline when I reached my 50's.
She was never officially diagnosed.

By the time I was KC's age:

I flunked high school
I was a compulsive liar (and didn't know why)
I couldn't seem to hold a job
I lived in a dream world (where I wanted to be famous)
I alternately felt superior and then lower than dirt
I was desperate for male attention
I "avoided" unpleasant things and ignored things that I "hoped" would go away

Unless you have been raised by someone as bizarre as my Mother and/or (apparently) CA.. there isn't going to be an adequate description of the dominance/dependence dynamic. I do remember feeling numb and often in a dreamworld where I thought things would just go away if I ignored them. Doesn't that sound just like KC to you?
I got away from my Mother so I have led a relatively normal life (after I straightened myself out). I'll tell you something really important too.....I am almost a thousand percent sure that my Mother was the way she was because she was a victim of incest.

Interesting post. My mom was BPD too, and I was also like you when i was in my early 20s, except for failing high school and not able to keep a job. I had 5 years of therapy before I had my daughter thank God.

I'm pretty sure my mom was a victim of incest by her older brother. It could have been my grandfather, but he never laid a hand on me so I doubt it.

 

[OneLostGrl]

Interesting post. My mom was BPD too, and I was also like you when i was in my early 20s, except for failing high school and not able to keep a job. I had 5 years of therapy before I had my daughter thank God.

I'm pretty sure my mom was a victim of incest by her older brother. It could have been my grandfather, but he never laid a hand on me so I doubt it.

I don't have a link handy at the moment but it is something like 40-70% of people with Borderline personality disorder are survivors of abuse.

 

[zoey]

Oh, one more thing. I need to exlain what I meant by confused. LOL...I didn't mean that Caylee was confused over who her mother was *because* CA had a big role in raising her and KC was still there too. I meant it seems --or maybe not seems, maybe I am just wondering due to my background- that CA was maybe....(thinking on how to word this)...

Ok it's not that CA and KC were taking care of Caylee at the same time but maybe that there was arguing and headbutting going on, and Caylee was SEEING the conflicts between CA and KC- this is not the same as some of the cases mentioned where grandparents raise their grandkids or babysit them all the time while parents work or do whatever....the distinction is if Caylee was seeing CA and KC in conflict. Did Caylee see the fights? Did she see Nan scold or criticize Mommy's parenting, or see Mommy argue with Nan over her? etc. THAT's what I mean- not that having grandparents actively involved in raising a kid and spending a large time with them while they have parents too confusing them. If there is a conflict, and bickering, and Mom doesn't want responsibility, and Grandma wants to straighten mom out, and it turns into a kind of power play, with grandma stepping in while Mommy's there but not doing her job, and taking over certain roles. Maybe this makes more sense as to what I meant?

And this alone wouldn't cause KC to snap, I mean, the way I see it, she could have stepped up to the plate and made herself be a good mother, but she seemed to want to party. I can't imagine called my kid a snot nose brat or little snot or whatever it was KC called Caylee when someone asked her to go to do something and she said "But I have my kid....."

KC is definitely the one to blame here I just wonder what Caylee saw.

I think Caylee was in the position to lean towards ca and that along po'd kc---but I also think perhaps there could have been bad mouthing going on amongst the "adults" of this house to her....how evil so and so was type thing to make Caylee like them better....I also am saddened to think that Caylee saw more in her short life than we want know....I think there was physical and emotional abuse big time within those walls....total power play---kc & ca---think they both played the same game and Caylee was the collateral.....