Mothers Who Kill Their Children

[Goody]

Glas you saw it! I should have known you would have heard it locally... but the March forum has been so slow lately that I wanted to be sure you did see it. Keep us posted on anything you hear locally. I'm soooo glad they've got Perry on something now, even if it isn't Janet's murder. As long as he's behind bars for a long, long time, I really don't care what it's for. Just get him off the streets!

I agree. I hope that get that father of his, too. I wonder what killed Perry's mother?

 

[j2mirish]

I agree. I hope that get that father of his, too. I wonder what killed Perry's mother?

what...or who?....LOL.....ok..not funny..

 

[HeartofTexas]

What I read said they thought it was suicide... and I can see that. One day she probably looked around, saw her family for what it really was, and took the only way out she could think of. If I had to look at Arthur March every day for the rest of my life, I promise you suicide would be a viable alternative.

 

[j2mirish]

Interesting. I just read an interview with Darlie in the Christian magazine (forget the exact title but we were discussing it the other day). I was very impressed with what she had to say about her Christian faith, but amazed that she interjected mention of her innocence. I thought to myself, Wow, she has guts to claim innocence and speak for the Lord in the same sentence/paragraph. Either she has successfully blocked out what she did that night (which the hypnosis session clearly disputes) or she is very, very good at using just about anything to manipulate the truth, even God's name and His teachings. That made me shudder.

Every group or family has one. That liar who won't admit he lied no matter how much evidence you have? They keep on trying to tell you that they didn't do the thing you are accusing them of, no matter how many others dispute them, no matter how black and white the proof? They just keep piling on more lies? Most of them won't swear on a bible though, but maybe she would. Made me take a step back in my thinking though.

thinkng of what? maybe she is simply pure evil?

 

[SnootyVixen]

Me, I read the books again and I don think that we should believe too much from them. Best to just throw them away I think. Too many lies in them.
What do you think?

 

[Goody]

What I read said they thought it was suicide... and I can see that. One day she probably looked around, saw her family for what it really was, and took the only way out she could think of. If I had to look at Arthur March every day for the rest of my life, I promise you suicide would be a viable alternative.

He looks mean, doesn't he? Something tells me that Perry is the son who took after him.

I guess we had better take this over to the Perry thread though before Jeana catches us. LOL!

 

[Goody]

thinkng of what? maybe she is simply pure evil?

No. I don't believe Darlie is pure evil. I just don't know what to make of her right now.

 

[Goody]

Me, I read the books again and I don think that we should believe too much from them. Best to just throw them away I think. Too many lies in them.
What do you think?

hahahahahahahhahhah! Snooty, you are too funny. The books don't tell enough but I don't think we should throw them away as there is a lot of truth in them.

 

[HeartofTexas]

Snooty, I think there's a lot of truth in the books... the main things that are lies are things Darlie and Darin said. I don't think an honest word has come out of either of their mouths since the night of the murders.

 

[HeartofTexas]

Goody said... I thought to myself, Wow, she has guts to claim innocence and speak for the Lord in the same sentence/paragraph. Either she has successfully blocked out what she did that night (which the hypnosis session clearly disputes) or she is very, very good at using just about anything to manipulate the truth, even God's name and His teachings. That made me shudder.

I definitely think it's the latter of the two choices... willing to manipulate the truth, even if it requires doing it under God's name. The more she walks down her chosen path of denial and lies, the more she has to rely on manipulating the truth and deflecting what really happened that night. What better way to do that than to get publicity through a religious magazine (run by Billy Graham's daughter!). The girl is shameless. Personally, I don't think she even knows what shame is. She doesn't really care who she tells her lies to. I think she just feels if she throws enough stuff out there, something will eventually stick. And her goal is to get off of Death Row. So her method will either work, or it won't.

 

[Mirielle]

I lurk on this forum alot but seldom post. For some reason, I find Darlie Routier absolutely appalling. I believe she is as guilty as hell and I have no sympathy with her whatsoever.

My impression of Darlie is classic borderline personality disorder. BPD's can be tremendously narcissistic. Some aspects of BPD are lack of object constancy, fear of abandonment, and splitting...the tendency of seeing someone as either all good or all bad. Another aspect of BPD is rage. Usually the rage is suicidal, but it can be homicidal.

BPD's can appear charming and sympathetic, have frequent mood swings, and also have a feeling of internal emptiness which they may try to fill with compulsive behaviors. Darlie was certainly a compulsive shopper and cleaner. BPD also would certainly explain her clinginess and neediness with Darryl.

For some reason I can not post links to this forum, but even the first listing on Google has some good explanations.

 

[Goody]

I lurk on this forum alot but seldom post. For some reason, I find Darlie Routier absolutely appalling. I believe she is as guilty as hell and I have no sympathy with her whatsoever.

My impression of Darlie is classic borderline personality disorder. BPD's can be tremendously narcissistic. Some aspects of BPD are lack of object constancy, fear of abandonment, and splitting...the tendency of seeing someone as either all good or all bad. Another aspect of BPD is rage. Usually the rage is suicidal, but it can be homicidal.

BPD's can appear charming and sympathetic, have frequent mood swings, and also have a feeling of internal emptiness which they may try to fill with compulsive behaviors. Darlie was certainly a compulsive shopper and cleaner. BPD also would certainly explain her clinginess and neediness with Darryl.

For some reason I can not post links to this forum, but even the first listing on Google has some good explanations.

What is object constancy?

BTW, hi and glad you are posting.

 

[j2mirish]

No. I don't believe Darlie is pure evil. I just don't know what to make of her right now.

that is what i am asking-- after the article you read where she intertwined god, and carried on about her innocence, i am asking what is it that you " dont know what to think of her now"- somthing in that article made you make that comment, that is what i am asking...what are you now asking yourself?

 

[Goody]

that is what i am asking-- after the article you read where she intertwined god, and carried on about her innocence, i am asking what is it that you " dont know what to think of her now"- somthing in that article made you make that comment, that is what i am asking...what are you now asking yourself?

Funny you should ask. I just opined on exactly this at GAC.

I have come to the conclusion that I don't have a clear picture of Darlie. What I am asking myself is, Who the hell is this person? I guess there is a part of me that wants the night she committed this horrible crime to be separate from who she is at the core of her humanity, and that article leaves me very disappointed. I really did expect her to be more "real" than someone who would try to use her Christian faith to further lies and escape punishment for something she should be repentive of. As my mean and hateful stepmother used to say, "That's what you get for doing your own thinking!" So it is back to the drawing board for Goody, I am afraid. I am going to have to scratch around for more info on this gal, but I gotta tell ya it is hard to comprehend that she really could be an abberition.

 

[HeartofTexas]

What is object constancy?

Goody, here is a rather long description of Object Constancy which will give you a pretty clear idea of what it is after reading it.

Narcissists often carry on talking (rather, lecturing) long after their interlocutors - bored stiff and resentful - have physically departed or mentally switched off. They are shocked to discover that they have been conversing with thin air for awhile. They are equally astounded when they are abandoned or shunned by spouses, friends, colleagues, the media, their fans, or audiences.
​

The root of this recurrent astonishment is the narcissist's perverse object constancy.
​

According to the great developmental psychologist, Margaret Mahler, between the ages of 24 and 36 months of life, the infant is finally able to cope with the mother's absence (by finding appropriate substitutes to her presence). It knows that she will return and trusts her to do so time and again.
​

The psychic image of the mother is internalized as a stable, reliable, and predictable object. As the infant's sense of time and verbal skills evolve, it becomes more immune to delayed gratification and tolerant of inevitable separation.
​

Piaget, the renowned child psychologist, concurred with Mahler and coined the term "object constancy" to describe the dynamics she observed.

As opposed to Mahler, Daniel Stern, another prominent psychoanalyst, proposes that the child is born with a sense of Self:
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"Infants begin to experience a sense of an emergent self from birth. They are pre-designed to be aware of self - organising processes. They never experience a period of total self / other undifferentiation. There is no confusion of self and other in the beginning or at any point during infancy.
​

They are pre-designed to be selectively responsive to external social events and never experience an autistic like phase.

During the period of 2 - 6 months the infant consolidates the core sense of self as a separate, cohesive, bounded, physical unit with a sense of their own agency, affectivity and continuity in time. There is no symbiotic like phase. In fact the subjective experiences of union with another can occur only after a core self and a core other exists."

But even Stern accepts the existence of a distinct and separate "other" versus the nascent "self".

Pathological narcissism is a reaction to deficient bonding and dysfunctional attachment (Bowlby). Object relations in narcissists are infantile and chaotic (Winnicott, Guntrip). Many narcissists have no psychological-object constancy at all. In other words, many of them do not feel that other people are benign, reliable, helpful, constant, predictable, and trustworthy.

To compensate for this lack in ability (or willingness) to relate to real, live people, the narcissist invents and molds substitute-objects or surrogate-objects.

These are mental representations of meaningful or significant others (Sources of Narcissistic Supply). They have little or nothing to do with reality. These imagoes - images - are confabulations, works of fiction. They respond to the narcissist's needs and fears - and do not correspond to the persons they purport to stand for.

The narcissist internalizes these pliable representations, manipulates them, and interacts with them - not with the originals. The narcissist is entirely immersed in his world, talking to these "figurines", arguing with these substitutes, contracting with these surrogates, being admired by them.

Hence his dismay when confronted with real people, their needs, feelings, preferences, and choices.

Thus, the typical narcissist refrains from any meaningful discourse with his spouse and children, friends and colleagues. Instead, he spins a narrative in which these people - represented by mental avatars - admire him, find him fascinating, fervently wish to oblige him, love him, or fear him.

These "avatars" have little or nothing to do with the way his kin and kith REALLY feel about him. The protagonists in the narcissist's yarns do not incorporate veritable data about his wife, or offspring, or colleagues, or friends. They are mere projections of the narcissist's inner world. Thus, when the narcissist faces the real thing - he refuses to believe and accept the facts:

"My wife has always been so cooperative - whatever happened to her lately?"

(She was never cooperative - she was subservient or frightened into submission. But the narcissist didn't notice because he never actually "saw her".)

"My son always wanted to follow in my footsteps - I don't know what possesses him!"

(The narcissist's poor son never wanted to be a lawyer or a doctor. He always dreamed of being an actor or an artist. But the narcissist was not aware of it.)

"My friends used to listen to my stories enraptured - I have no idea why they no longer do so!"

(At first, his friends politely listened to the narcissist's interminable rants and ravings. Finally, they dropped from his social circle, one by one.)

"I was admired by the media - now I am constantly ignored!"

(At first, an object of derision and morbid fascination, the novelty wore off and the media moved on to other narcissists.)

The above comes from Dr. Sam Vaknin's website which is devoted exclusively to the narcissistic personality. He states that anything can be copied as long as his name is mentioned and he's given credit, so I took that to mean the whole page could be copied as long as I mentioned his name and gave the url.

http://samvak.tripod.com/journal77.html

 

[j2mirish]

Funny you should ask. I just opined on exactly this at GAC.

I have come to the conclusion that I don't have a clear picture of Darlie. What I am asking myself is, Who the hell is this person? I guess there is a part of me that wants the night she committed this horrible crime to be separate from who she is at the core of her humanity, and that article leaves me very disappointed. I really did expect her to be more "real" than someone who would try to use her Christian faith to further lies and escape punishment for something she should be repentive of. As my mean and hateful stepmother used to say, "That's what you get for doing your own thinking!" So it is back to the drawing board for Goody, I am afraid. I am going to have to scratch around for more info on this gal, but I gotta tell ya it is hard to comprehend that she really could be an abberition.

thanks- I thought that was probably what you meant - just wanted to make sure i was "reading" you correclty.

 

[Goody]

Goody, here is a rather long description of Object Constancy which will give you a pretty clear idea of what it is after reading it.


The above comes from Dr. Sam Vaknin's website which is devoted exclusively to the narcissistic personality. He states that anything can be copied as long as his name is mentioned and he's given credit, so I took that to mean the whole page could be copied as long as I mentioned his name and gave the url.

http://samvak.tripod.com/journal77.html

I still don't think I truly get it. I think I understand the part of chaotic childlike behavior (referred to as infancy). That makes sense in laymen terms and constancy makes sense in that it continues thru life. But what the heck is the object...the image the narcississist comes up with to replace what be perceives are the disappointments in those around him? Maybe my brain is just not functioning today.

 

[cami]

But what the heck is the object...the image the narcississist comes up with to replace what be perceives are the disappointments in those around him?

Himself

 

[britgirl]

i would be more inclined to be interested in things like this for Darlie- with the one huge exception-- SHE STILL DENIES SHE KILLED THEM.....I think, Goody, that is why I draw the line with her, and have no sympathy....even this many years later, she wont step up to the plate and admitt she killed those children. If there were documented childhood problems, or depression and she snapped- then broke down in an emotional admittion (sp), I could perhaps discuss her without the disgust i do now- I just cant let go of the fact she wont admitt it-- that is why it is so hard for me to believe there were "background, or emotional" problems to the degree that she would "snap"- does that make sense to you?

Darlie's total refusal to admit what she did IS very hard to swallow. She is in a different league to Andrea Yates, for example, who had/has severe mental health problems...I don't find it hard to have any sympathy for her (Andrea). With Darlie, I DO find it hard. Unless she is so completely deranged that she has arrived at a point where she truly, genuinely, 100% believes an intruder killed her kids, in which case she is clearly mentally ill...but I find that hard to believe.
I wonder how many condemned prisoners confess as their execution approaches? I believe they have a spiritual advisor; if and when Darlie's time comes will she finally admit to her advisor that she is guilty? Or to anyone else, for that matter. And if she DID confess to her spiritual advisor, would that confession be confidential? Does anyone know?

 

[j2mirish]

Darlie's total refusal to admit what she did IS very hard to swallow. She is in a different league to Andrea Yates, for example, who had/has severe mental health problems...I don't find it hard to have any sympathy for her (Andrea). With Darlie, I DO find it hard. Unless she is so completely deranged that she has arrived at a point where she truly, genuinely, 100% believes an intruder killed her kids, in which case she is clearly mentally ill...but I find that hard to believe.
I wonder how many condemned prisoners confess as their execution approaches? I believe they have a spiritual advisor; if and when Darlie's time comes will she finally admit to her advisor that she is guilty? Or to anyone else, for that matter. And if she DID confess to her spiritual advisor, would that confession be confidential? Does anyone know?

i am not positive, but i would think it would be confidential-