I have heard it said that the law protects only Catholic priests because of the rules of confession and the oaths priests take, but Rosie Greer claimed confidentiality between clergy and defendant when it was said OJ had confessed to him and a guard supposedly overheard it. If you remember, it was not allowed in court, so maybe any clergy is afforded the same privilege. (I think Darlie did confess to her clergy. He visitied her almost everyday for awhile.)britgirl said:
Mothers Who Kill Their Children
- Thread starter Goody
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Hi Goody, Thanks for the welcome. Object constancy in layman's terms means that you know internally on a deep emotional level that people are going to be there for you. Remember the toddler who constantly goes out the door and then runs back in (enough to drive the most patient mom kindof nutty) to check that mom is really there when the toddler can't see her? That is one of the ways the normal healthy child begins to develop object constancy. Another way happens in infancy when the baby is hungry, wet, or somehow otherwise needy and the parents always come to meet their needs. The child in normal developement is constantly reassured that parents and other reliable caregivers will be there for them. It is a major part of the bonding process and has to be successful for the child to ever have a true sense of self and a sense of others.Goody said:
If a child is exposed to trauma or abandonment, that can seriously disrupt object constancy and bonding. It may not be the parents' fault. If the mother becomes seriously ill and is hospitalized for a long time, is replaced with a less than satisfactory caregiver, if the child never gets to visit and nobody really works to reassure the child, that can interfere with object constancy. If an emergency or crisis exists, the parents might not have the time or the resources to deal with the kids' needs and that may be what happened to Darlie. However, my hunch is that Darlie suffered some form of abuse as a child, and I'll get into that.
I have a good friend whose mother became seriously ill when she was 5 and spent a few months in the hospital. My friend was the oldest child. At that time kids were not allowed to visit. Nobody else in the family was available to take care of the kids, their father was working fulltime and was doing his best, but they ended up with a caregiver that was rather unkind, even though she never hit the kids or anything like that. In fact, my friend said she was so "child unfriendly" and strict that she became convinced that the woman was a witch, which scared her even more. She described feeling very depressed and empty, and said that, ever since, she had a hard time feeling that the people in her life really existed when they were gone from her sight. She said she knew that this was just a feeling, that of course the people really existed, but that she had to do some therapy to get to the reasons for this feeling, which had caused some problems in her life. My friend is not a borderline personality; her diagnosis was PTSD.
In order to develop a true sense of self, kids have to develop that sense of object constancy. In a family that may look good from the outside, but where the kids' needs are abrogated to that of the parents, this may be an issue. This can also be a huge issue in families that have an alcoholic parent, workaholism, other compulsive disorders and/or sexual abuse. Not only do these kids lose object constancy, they lose the ability to trust anyone or let anyone in. They also have a great deal of trouble forming a true sense of self, unless they have the great good luck to find other caring adults.
The question is why some kids come from homes that are very traumatic and develop into people that may need some help along the way but don't develop full blown borderline personality disorders, attachment disorders, or narcissism. The other half of the question is why some kids do. This is something I have been thinking about for a long time because I am a child of trauma and an incest survivor.
Some kids, like myself, that came from a very traumatic home, develop Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. I have read and admired Heart of Texas' posts and feel that she also developed PTSD. I can relate very much to what she went through...and I went through very similar things. I was not sure that I would survive my younger childhood. I would call myself and Heart "the resilient ones," the ones that somehow find internal resources and also manage to find enough positive support to validate us in other ways. I know I had, and I am willing to bet that Heart also had, other caring individuals in my life that gave me something positive and made a significant difference in my life. However, I too suffered somewhat from the feeling that people did not really exist unless I could see them. I too, like my friend, knew that it was just a feeling and I finally got rid of that in therapy. I was glad when it was gone because it meant that I had finally found and healed my inner self...for the most part, anyway. (Still working on residual baggage and that's a lifetime job.)
I think that there was probably major ongoing trauma in Darlie's early life that led to such strong borderline tendencies. For some reason, the children that end up with a borderline disorder, never find adults that can validate them or give them a sense of their own value as persons. I was fortunate to be very bright and had obvious writing talent, so I received much positive attention for that and for academic achievement. I also was talented musically. Most of my validation came through my teachers, who fortunately were loving and caring individuals, not predatory, or my story could be very different. I was often shipped off to stay my paternal grandmother, who was a loving person, so she gave me a great deal of security and physical safety that I was unable to get when I was staying with my parents. I am willing to bet that Heart had some similar experiences. I was also fortunate enough to have plenty of friends when I was a teenager and even a teacher that took me in when things got rough at home. I was skilled enough to manipulate my parents into letting me participate in extracurricular activities, which gave me many excuses to be away. However, I want to stress that the most important resources for building a sense of self are caring adults, not one's peers.
Unfortunately, for Darlie, she does not come across as the brightest crayon in the box and I doubt if there were many adults that took a tremendous interest in her as a person, so she never bonded with caring adults, although I think she was enmeshed with her mother, who appears to be a very needy person with lots of secrets. Like many girls that come from a traumatic background, Darlie probably looked for validation through romance, clothes, and her looks, rather than achievement. Darlie probably always had a sense of abandonment, which explains her clingy neediness with her husband...and her rather negligent care of her boys. She either dressed them up like dolls or let them run the neighborhood...no in-between. I am willing to bet that she never felt they were real either, or she would not have killed them, no matter how rageful she felt.
I would love to know the real story of Darlie's early life. She comes across as a shallow individual who is very concerned about the externals of life...someone that is not capable of introspection, someone that is stuck emotionally at about age 15. Of course, to have insight and introspection, one must have a sense of self. I don't think Darlie ever really did. That would explain the murderous rage at feeling abandoned that she took out on her children, which she would have felt were extensions of her husband.
Well, I really went on a rant here in answer to a simple question, Goody, but I have been trying to figure Darlie out for ages and your question provoked some thought, some insight, and maybe a little more empathy for Darlie than I had in the past.
HeartofTexas
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I really loved your post, Mirielle. It was filled with so much meaty information!
I totally agree with what you've said about Darlie and her mother. Few of the other posters on this forum seem to agree, however. I've always felt that something happened back in her childhood (whether it was one traumatic incident or, more likely, a string of incidents) to cause her to turn out like she did. And I'm not even talking about the murders. I'm just talking about the girl I saw interviewed by the press... there was no "real" Darlie there... just someone imitating a real person. Her words and her actions never matched and her delivery was incredibly shallow and self-involved. And, like you, I've always felt there were "secrets" in the family. I doubt we'll ever know them, though, because neither of the Darlie's seem to want to spend too much time on introspection.
And yes, I suffer from PTSD to quite a degree. I've been undergoing a therapy called EMDR (eye motor desensitization and reintegration, I think!) for the last 2 years which has actually given me the most relief I've ever experienced from it.
I think what saved me is that I was born/blessed with a winning personality. From age 9 months on I was incredibly conversant and never met a stranger. I loved people and people loved me. That trait has followed me throughout my life and no matter how many schools I went to, or how many times I moved, I could quickly find new friends. I was popular all the way through school and was loved by all of my teachers. I was also blessed with a quick sense of humor and loved to laugh more than almost anything!
OTOH, what ultimately saved me also almost led to my demise. I was constantly plagued with doubts about why my entire family hated me and wanted to harm me, but the rest of the world loved me. On some level I always felt my parents knew the "true me", the one they referred to as poison and evil and stupid. Thus, I felt like the person the outside world knew was obviously the phony one and so none of their admiration and respect and friendship could replace the feelings of self-doubt I lived with. Finally, by my mid-20's, my two worlds collided... and thus the long, hard years of therapy began.
I totally agree with what you've said about Darlie and her mother. Few of the other posters on this forum seem to agree, however. I've always felt that something happened back in her childhood (whether it was one traumatic incident or, more likely, a string of incidents) to cause her to turn out like she did. And I'm not even talking about the murders. I'm just talking about the girl I saw interviewed by the press... there was no "real" Darlie there... just someone imitating a real person. Her words and her actions never matched and her delivery was incredibly shallow and self-involved. And, like you, I've always felt there were "secrets" in the family. I doubt we'll ever know them, though, because neither of the Darlie's seem to want to spend too much time on introspection.
And yes, I suffer from PTSD to quite a degree. I've been undergoing a therapy called EMDR (eye motor desensitization and reintegration, I think!) for the last 2 years which has actually given me the most relief I've ever experienced from it.
I think what saved me is that I was born/blessed with a winning personality. From age 9 months on I was incredibly conversant and never met a stranger. I loved people and people loved me. That trait has followed me throughout my life and no matter how many schools I went to, or how many times I moved, I could quickly find new friends. I was popular all the way through school and was loved by all of my teachers. I was also blessed with a quick sense of humor and loved to laugh more than almost anything!
OTOH, what ultimately saved me also almost led to my demise. I was constantly plagued with doubts about why my entire family hated me and wanted to harm me, but the rest of the world loved me. On some level I always felt my parents knew the "true me", the one they referred to as poison and evil and stupid. Thus, I felt like the person the outside world knew was obviously the phony one and so none of their admiration and respect and friendship could replace the feelings of self-doubt I lived with. Finally, by my mid-20's, my two worlds collided... and thus the long, hard years of therapy began.
cami
Keep your fork......
Goody said:
LOL it was just a joke, you were talking about narcissists so it seemed fitting that it would be himself, aaahaha I know I'm bad. :sick:
cami
Keep your fork......
Mirielle, merci for that wonderful post. It just breaks my heart what you and Heart went through and survived your terrible childhoods. God Bless you.
Boy, I can relate to this! LOL! In reading your post, I wondered if Darlie might have felt abandoned by her children in some way, if maybe that could have caused her to lash out at them. Sometimes the roles of parent and child get reversed. I would think that might be esp in cases where Mom is a bit of a prima donna and the center of attention.Mirielle said:
I have also thought Darlie has the symptoms of someone who was abused, but couldn't it have also just been from the fallouts of divorce, moving so far away from her extended family, having a new stepfather she might not have liked? If she had been sexually abused, it wouldn't have to be the stepfather. Many girls are abused by neighbors and older kids in the neighborhood, cousins, etc. I would definitely like to know more about her life in PA, her life in Lubbock, and how her friends from high school and at varying points in her adult life saw her. We have some of the latter but not a lot.
I totally agree with your accessment of Darlie's approach to parenthood. Of course, we don't have a lot of supporting evidence, but I suspect your description is pretty accurate. Plus it is not unusual these days in many homes. Parents' often have emotions that run hot or cold with few warm days, confusing children about the borderlines. Then the parents can't understand why their children misbehave all the time when, in fact, the kids might not be able to read Mom's or Dad's moods accurately enough to know which days they can and which days they can't do something without getting into trouble.Mirielle said:
cami
Keep your fork......
Goody said:
Okay sorry. It won't happen again Grandma.
HeartofTexas
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LOL! Grandma's gonna whack you with her cane!
cami
Keep your fork......
HeartofTexas said:
LOl, I know. I used to do that to my elder sister when I saw her on the bus. I 'd say real loud "Hi Mum." Oh did she ever get dirty. Or to my youngest sister "Hi Sissy" she hates that hates it so she got dirty too!
I can't help it, I'm the practical joker in the family.
cami
Keep your fork......
Goody said:
Answer my pm I sent you if you can please.
beesy
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Yep, Goody's always right!Goody said:
o·pine
[size=-1]VERB: [/size]
[font=arial,sans-serif][size=-1]o·pined[/size][/font] , [font=arial,sans-serif][size=-1]o·pin·ing[/size][/font] , [font=arial,sans-serif][size=-1]o·pines[/size][/font]
[size=-1]VERB: [/size]
[size=-1]tr. [/size]
To state as an opinion.
[size=-1]VERB: [/size]
[size=-1]intr. [/size]
To express an opinion: [size=+0]opined on the defendant's testimony.[/size]