Netflix to stream new documentary on Steven Avery - #5

New Posts

Status
Not open for further replies.
dexter75 said:
How many officers do you think " had " to be involved? I'm curious.

I do not think it was the entire department. Personally, I'd be willing to bet it were one or two with a high probability anyone else that " suspected anything/anyone else, just turned the other cheek" It happens often. Police Departments, Court houses, Military. You simply DO NOT SNITCH, PERIOD.
Example; Someone dear to me works in a court house. In charge of CHILD WELFARE.
Before a NEW computer system was put in worth thousands of dollars, a JUDGE took a folder home for the weekend. This is AGAINST the rules. This judge LOST the folder NEVER to be seen again. Because of this, a FAMILY suffers, a CHILD suffers. This was a CHILD CUSTODY case. No one is going to look this family in the eye and tell the truth. An elaborate lie is made up, they wait longer for a court date, and people higher up go on covering for one another and breaking the rules.
That was nothing big, a true story though.

Here's another. I can be more detailed because it was in the paper AND my loved one isn't at risk of losing their job;
My brother is a recovering HEROIN addict. Years ago he was best friends with our chief of police's son. They would make 2 runs a day, nearly every day to Detroit to get their dope. They also would run scams. ANYTHING, for a fix.

My brother is the most outspoken addict, I've ever come across. He would tell me about the number of times he and his buddy would get pulled over, or have a cop behind them, but because he was THE POLICE CHIEFS SON...the cops ran the plates, saw it was Officer Collins boy, and let em go. Pulled em over, found spoons and needles, and " called daddy " This went on a LONG time.

One day, my brother wasn't with his buddy, on the way to Detroit.

Turns out, he was FLYING up 75 and SLAMMED into a father and son, KILLING the father, because he had nodded out. Being on HEROIN and all. He is still in prison. Cops were notified HERE, going BACK to ALL the times they had pulled him over. SMH

Those are 2 very different, very REAL stories from a small town in Michigan.
One Police Department, an ENTIRE department KNEW and covered for a person until it was too late. Another, a Judge breaking rules and a team covering for him, to keep the place looking good =) Protecting that reputation =)

As far as the lawsuit in the SA case,

The money was indeed affecting SO much more than people realize, IMO
Click to expand...

Honestly I think this started at the top with the 05 Sheriff and the DA. Then it just rolled on to Lt. Lenk and Sgt Colburn to do the actual evidence planting, the Sheriff put "the fear" in those two so to speak. KK I think had some inkling of the conflict of interest but has a personality that has to win at all costs with the ends justifying the means. I sincerely believe the outside county DA and Sherrif's office thought he was guilty and what the Defense team was saying was unthinkable. The MTSO was definitely operating on an us versus him (SA) mentality and didn't doubt the validity or the circumstance in which evidence was uncovered. They went forth without question. What really gets me in regards to the non involvement of the MTSO statements was that for the first 36 hours there is no real documentation of what the officers were doing. No logs or recordings of the interviews with SA on the 3rd or 4th, no statements of the first walk through. No transcripts submitted for Calumet detectives to review and MTSO was the one who had first contact with him. Why do the subsequent SA interviews have 5 plus pages when done by another county? There's nothing for anyone to compare those statements to earlier statements to check for inconsistencies.
 
ya know... sometimes I think she is reading here LOL

Kathleen Zellner ‏@ZellnerLaw 2m2 minutes ago
Police reports: Others lie but cops turn a blind eye. "The killer (devil) is in the detail" #Eyeswideshut
#MakingAMurderer
 
I find Zellner's tweets to be teasing and cryptic and not in a good way. And I say that as a fan of Zellner's previous work.

---------

On another note, not related to Zellner, it's fine to suggest all kinds of malfeasance, but when push comes to shove, as it eventually does, allegations need to have evidence behind them, not mere suggestions. The virtual foot stomping and cries of "...that's not faiirrrrrrr; everything was planted, the entire county is corrupt" will not sway the appellate and Supreme Court judges or do a thing to help SA.
 
Madeleine74 said:
I find Zellner's tweets to be teasing and cryptic and not in a good way. And I say that as a fan of Zellner's previous work.
Click to expand...

Maybe so, but she's 100% spot on saying the devil is in the details. I really don't think she would saying/tweeting anything unless she's got something big.
 
Wow! I NEVER heard of this story until now (well the past 4 days) decided to click this thread - watching on netflix now - OMG!!! I am into the trial now. Just watched the info about the vial of blood... Just have no words for what I am seeing!
 
MysticJynx said:
But they were signing a state BILL that was in his Name. they didn't want that monetary to change either for their mistakes of wrongful conviction. Which is why it was shortly after he was arrested before trial or proof, they signed it behind closed doors. They needed to tarnish the poster childs name to the extent that would happen. Until recently they still only paid out 5k topped at 25k after that. Meaning for 10 years even though the bill was signed they ignored the use of it. Changed its name. Now just recently they passed another bill. Paying out 50k topped at 1M. But if you Sue you will have to pay any monies you received from the state, back to the state. They sure fixed that since his conviction. The state had monetary loss to all wrongful convicted when the bills were passed.

This is on top of suing the county and possibly winning making a lot of people involved, Including the DOJ who investigated that first crime. LOOK bad. Reputations and Money would be a good reason to turn blind eyes.

When SA started to claim in the beginning the DOJ who was on the case through their DCI investigators. Fassbender and a few others, They should have been making sure everythign was by the book. Including keeping the Conflict of interest off the case and crime scenes. Also possibly investigating the Blood being tampered with.

The blood that never should have been opened even by the Fitzgerald character. The court order in 2002 was for hair and clippings. Then he just scotch taped that box, and he was what a DA? When will they hold him responsible for doing that in 2002? Made the access to that blood easy to come by. Making the evidence questionable. That is what they should have been investigating parallel to the cal county investigating the case without the help of the conflict of interest.

They all allowed deviating from almost all the protocols down to taking the pictures of the license plates found in the station wagon. None of the evidence seems to be clean and clear cut. All of it was tainted the moment they allowed for the Man Co. To enter any of this investigation. And LIED to the public that they did back off.

JMO
Click to expand...

I tend to agree this was devastating to the MTSO- 1st order of business when SA was exonerated on the wrongful conviction was the DOJ investigation of the department. That had to be an extremely tense time. One thing that struck me in the findings was the investigators found a distinct lack of paperwork (ring any bells) on the part of the Sheriff office's investigation of the PB assault. As luck would have it for them the DOJ found them not at fault. So you have right away the people who knew about what was happening the whole 18 years on the defensive. Then SA files the civil suit because if the department was not at fault then it goes down to the individuals involved personally. As the suit goes under way it threatens to expose the wrong doing personally with any additional individuals uncovered to also become named in the suit. And finally, you have the Avery Task Force which shows politicians even the Governor on SA's side who are beginning to propose reforms that influence the way the MTSO will have to conduct business. Here's the pride thing coming to a head. SA is going to tell them how to do their job. I can see how an already shady group of people who head up this department would seize any opportunity for SA to fall or be "eliminated".
 
Limaes said:
I have read them! Quiet frankly I am getting tired of pro Avery posters insinuating to anyone who disagrees with them that they haven't read anything.

He said he was "guessing". Was he telling the truth...no! Did he know he wasn't telling thruth...yes! So that means he was LYING...no matter how you or he wants to word it.

Sent from my SM-N910G using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

I'm not pro-Avery and I wasn't insinuating you hadn't read the transcripts. I simply asked you which elements of Dassey's many confessions you believed and of those what can be corroborated with independent evidence.

As for Dassey being a liar... Many, many people have been exonerated after false confessions. We don't refer to those people as liars. We call them victims of the coercive interrogation techniques.
 
http://gmancasefile.com/moore-to-th...s-take-episode-3-plight-of-the-accused-part-1

Enlightening take on a LEO opinion on part of MaM. I like that he doesn't make any conclusions on SA or BD guilt/innocence, just states what he found wrong on the investigation and media part of this case. I, especially, liked his take on the media's actions as far as this case goes.

"He asserted that he, and therefore the press, were neither able nor obligated to double check claims of the prosecution. I disagree. Good people have fought and died for the right to a free press. For that press to blindly accept the claims of any government is to abdicate the responsibilities of an exquisitely expensive right. I think one of the most important responsibilities of a free press is to hold government accountable. When they don’t, wrongful convictions are child’s play."
 
The people tasked with determining whether the prosecution met their burden is the jury. They are the determiners of the truth. Beyond the jury the finders of fact are the appellate judges and/or supreme court.

The media's only obligation is to get their facts right in their stories, make sure the quotes they get are accurate, and make sure what they write is the truth.
 
Wendy101 said:
Wow! I NEVER heard of this story until now (well the past 4 days) decided to click this thread - watching on netflix now - OMG!!! I am into the trial now. Just watched the info about the vial of blood... Just have no words for what I am seeing!
Click to expand...

are you done yet??? LOL I binge watched it.... when I stared, I just had to finish! LOL The documentary is slanted towards SA, but do your research when you are done :) all the documents that are available so far can be found here:
http://www.stevenaverycase.org/
 
So I have watched the documentary and realize that there could be some slant to it for the defense. But it was pretty cool to see testimony from the people involved in the case instead of re-enactments. I have seen lots of speculation and consider myself not to normally believe in wild and crazy conspiricies. But I am hoping one of you can prove that my theory is definitely wrong. I believe in Occums Razor so here goes.

Why is it not possible that a week after depositions from Lenk, Colburne, and so that they realized they needed to kill someone and pin it on Avery? I mean they were going to lose their careers, Pensions, and maybe sued personally. Did they really just get that lucky for Avery to commit such a crime to save themselves, their careers, their financial well being? I mean that is the motive that I get from the show. And I realize that the defense team didn't go this route in the trial. It would have been stupid to do that even if they did believe it.
 
Hi Roy23 :)

I'm not sure I believe that they killed her. But I'm not sure I believe that they just happened to come across her RAV4 and body.... but yet I believe they were planted on the property LOL I think I might have to go back and watch the last episode of Making a Murderer, I think by the time I was watching that one, I was already online researching and I may have missed some things.... like just who had already been deposed... and who got out of being deposed because SA was arrested *cough* Vogel and Kocourek *cough*. Apparently that is in the last episode, that their depositions were cancelled because he was arrested (and wasn't this when they wouldn't tell his lawyers where he was? and the reporter called the sheriff out on that during a news conference?)
 
Roy23 said:
Why is it not possible that a week after depositions from Lenk, Colburne, and so that they realized they needed to kill someone and pin it on Avery? I mean they were going to lose their careers, Pensions, and maybe sued personally.
Click to expand...

The speculation is they would have lost everything, but there's no proof of that. SA was never going to get $36M and his attorneys likely knew it. There would have been a settlement and the county would have appealed, as that's how these things work. Maybe he would have gotten $1M - $3M. It certainly would have taken at least a year and possibly a couple years or more to wind its way through the system.

The documentary wants viewers to make that leap, but not even the defense team believed the cops killed TH or planted her body.
 
Madeleine74 said:
The speculation is they would have lost everything, but there's no proof of that. SA was never going to get $36M and his attorneys likely knew it. There would have been a settlement and the county would have appealed, as that's how these things work. Maybe he would have gotten $1M - $3M. It certainly would have taken at least a year and possibly a couple years or more to wind its way through the system.

The documentary wants viewers to make that leap, but not even the defense team believed the cops killed TH or planted her body.
Click to expand...

Anything is possible and it's total speculation to even guess what SA would have gotten in a civil suit. What's more important would be the actual civil trial and the incompetence of Manitowoc LE officers being broadcast to all of Wisconsin and possibly the country. I don't believe that LE killed TH, but I'm not 100% convinced that SA did. Strange things happen in small towns and people/families are made targets of LE.
 
100% convinced defendant killed the victim is not the legal standard in the first place. I'm not 100% convinced either. However I do think there was enough to take a jury beyond a reasonable doubt. I can throw out all the supposedly planted items (key, blood in SUV) and still get past reasonable doubt based on even less:

1. He was the last known person to be in the company of the victim and her last known location was Avery property
2. Her phone was not used after 2:41pm and stopped pinging to a tower after that (4:35pm)
3. Her body was found on the Avery property, burned and into charred bits.
4. Her vehicle was found on the Avery property (note I'm not mentioning anything about his blood)
5. Her personal belongings were in his burn barrel(s) and an attempt to destroy them through burning had taken place.
6. He cleaned a particular area of his garage with bleach. A garage that was not clean in any other place and was, by all appearances, a cluttered mess.
7. He had a bonfire that night.

There. I just listed circumstantial evidence that doesn't use the key, the blood, the bullet, or BD's statements and that would be enough for some juries to be able to convict. But there's a lot more than that in this case. One could argue each item separately (and many have) but when you look at everything in totality, which is what juries are instructed to do, at some point the coincidences are beyond mere coincidences.
 
Madeleine74 said:
The speculation is they would have lost everything, but there's no proof of that. SA was never going to get $36M and his attorneys likely knew it. There would have been a settlement and the county would have appealed, as that's how these things work. Maybe he would have gotten $1M - $3M. It certainly would have taken at least a year and possibly a couple years or more to wind its way through the system.

The documentary wants viewers to make that leap, but not even the defense team believed the cops killed TH or planted her body.
Click to expand...

Well, one also has to consider the ancillary costs of the lawsuit. There were plenty of expenses that the county would have had to shell out in order to defend themselves. Legal costs, court fees, testing, etc... And they knew it was a losing battle. They would surely lose the case. They sent a man to prison for 18 years for a crime he never committed. Someone had to pay. That said there were a lot of non-monetary costs to the lawsuit as well, including reputations, pride and time & resources. Besides that, they were probably concerned about opening a Pandora's Box. Quite frankly, I am surprised that SA was able to get $400K out of them considering the situation. That makes me feel even more strongly that there was a lot more to the case than meets the eye. $36 million just being the starting point. I think it was pretty apparent to them that the depositions were not going well and that they were in big trouble. They always thought SA was a patsy and a loser and never expected him to get the support of the Innocence Project and never expected him to get the support of a good civil attorney. They always underestimated him. I think they continued to feel this way when they decided to frame him for the murder. They say the definition of insanity is to continue the same behavior expecting different results. I think there are a lot of insane people in Manitowoc.
 
missy1974 said:
Hi Roy23 :)

I'm not sure I believe that they killed her. But I'm not sure I believe that they just happened to come across her RAV4 and body.... but yet I believe they were planted on the property LOL I think I might have to go back and watch the last episode of Making a Murderer, I think by the time I was watching that one, I was already online researching and I may have missed some things.... like just who had already been deposed... and who got out of being deposed because SA was arrested *cough* Vogel and Kocourek *cough*. Apparently that is in the last episode, that their depositions were cancelled because he was arrested (and wasn't this when they wouldn't tell his lawyers where he was? and the reporter called the sheriff out on that during a news conference?)
Click to expand...

You are right, missy, it was Vogel and Kourek. And the interesting part for me was that the depositions for those 2 were scheduled for Kocourek on 11/10 and Vogel on 11/15. SA was arrested on 11/8 and those depositions were then canceled on 11/9. What makes it even more interesting was that Kocourek had tried to stop being asked certain questions on that deposition due to attorney client privilege and the had judge ruled against that, meaning he was going to have to answer some questions that he was fighting against having to answer.

https://m.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/42jht8/motivation_for_framing_avery_interesting/
 
So now the suspicion is on Vogel and Kocourek. In addition to Lenk and Colburn?

Might be easier to list the people who aren't considered involved in this conspiracy, certainly a shorter list than what's been tossed into the mix.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

DNASolves

Who is Escambia County John Doe (1989)?

Members online

... and 213 more.
Total: 2,210 (members: 214, guests: 1,996)

Online statistics

Members online
214
Guests online
1,996
Total visitors
2,210
Totals may include hidden visitors.

Forum statistics

Threads
595,757
Messages
18,032,835
Members
229,763
Latest member
Legomatica_Locate
Back
Top