NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - # 2

[Kelly]

Peabody,

We need more people like you to care! I will continue to do what I can to ensure the missing are not forgotten.

God bless,
Kelly

 

[dannyodie]

someone help me here, in all that has been posted here, didn't someone post about a woman that saw a strange acting man nearby in a pick up truck? seems I read that but was there more to that? seems it was reported by a woman in a nearby town or township? I remember when the groene family thing happened that we were all working on the possibility that this could have been related to drug deals gone bad? until one websleuther mentioned that this could be a sexual preditor that did that, how right he was. I am just wondering myself if someone drove by the scene that is known to be violant against women? and picked her up to give her a ride to town and did other wise to her. the last person to have seen her alive was the school bus driver. maybe they should look his property over real good. or have they already done so? is there any pictures of the area that one can look at? and what is the exact name of the highway or street she was travelling? someone in the area if you could sometime, and know someone with a gps unit, ask them to travel to the location of the accident log the gps waypoints and then post here on websleuths, I can use that info on this sattelite program which was developed by nasa to look over the vast area and see if there is some possible places that could be looked into. the images that I will see of course would not be detailed enough to show a body on the ground, but does show with good clarity of landscapes and buildings and so on. having the exact gps waypoints will give me a exact starting point, without it, it will take much much longer to establish a location to begin with. if anyone can do that I would appreciate it.

 

[murraydwyer]

Hi,

There was a report of a suspicious pickup truck in the area reported by a woman. The initial reports also put a man smoking a cigarette in the car...though that has never been confirmed...and it just dropped from the newspaper articles

As to where the accident occured, it was on Route 112. The city gets real fudgey in that spot....Haverhill (Woodsville which is a Village of Haverhill) Bath (Swiftwater which is a village of Bath). Some searches put the bus drivers house in Bath and some in Woodsville. How close do you need the coordinates to be? I come up with approximately W71º 58.2 N44º 8.6.

I think I read the the GPS on Maura's phone wouldn't work because NH does not have whatever is needed in place...would regular GPS work? Anybody out there reading from NH have GPS??

 

[docwho3]

...the last person to have seen her alive was the school bus driver. maybe they should look his property over real good. or have they already done so?....

Sounds like a good idea. A bus driver would be someone who could troll for victems in a large area.

Her odd behavior, however, makes it appear that she was getting ready to disappear anyway. We are left wondering:
1.Did she just stage her own disappearance? It has happened with others before.
2.Did she plan to disappear but unfortunately met up with a killer who helped her disappear in a permenant way.-Perhaps a bus driver?
3. Did someone set her up in some way . . . perhaps by asking her help for several days?

 

[dannyodie]

Hi,

There was a report of a suspicious pickup truck in the area reported by a woman. The initial reports also put a man smoking a cigarette in the car...though that has never been confirmed...and it just dropped from the newspaper articles

As to where the accident occured, it was on Route 112. The city gets real fudgey in that spot....Haverhill (Woodsville which is a Village of Haverhill) Bath (Swiftwater which is a village of Bath). Some searches put the bus drivers house in Bath and some in Woodsville. How close do you need the coordinates to be? I come up with approximately W71º 58.2 N44º 8.6.

I think I read the the GPS on Maura's phone wouldn't work because NH does not have whatever is needed in place...would regular GPS work? Anybody out there reading from NH have GPS??

longitude and latitude readings are the more precise ones I am needing.

 

[Marisa714]

I don't think I remember reading about the man w/the cigarette...even though it's unconfirmed, are there more details to that?

 

[docwho3]

I have been mulling this one over in my mind. I wasn't going to get involved with it at first for several reasons, one of which is she seems to have wished to disappear & I have to respect that choice. But one W.S. has the name 'prayers for maura' and that stuck in my mind and so I mulled it over. I hope it ends up being a little help.

Normally when something sounds wild & hard to believe it usually means its a lie. Yes I know there are exceptions to that rule but in lack of other info I play the odds. The bus driver's story did not sound likely and it could have been just a way to cover his backside if someone had spotted him speaking to Maura. But what if he spoke the truth?

What about her pulling money out of bank? That sounds very much like the bride-with-cold-feet case.

So how could the bus driver be telling the truth & yet Maura have disappeared so easily and so fast? Well, if she wanted to disappear she might have enlisted the help of someone she knew in school or in town.

Let's say she speaks to friend & the plan is for friend to follow her to a pre arranged place & then Maura would just park the car and friend would arrive and pick her up and drop her off at her destination.

So she starts out on that day & friend goes to gas up his/her car or make other last minute arrangements but leaves town within 30 minutes (probably less) of Maura.

But Maura has a slight mishap on the road & now someone has seen her and this may alert people to her intended destination or at the very least will point people in her direction of travel. She probably had hoped for more time before the car was dicovered but it was not a serious enough problem for her to scrap the plan to disappear. She also doesn't want the cops to see her. Soon after the bus driver/witness leaves Maura's friend comes tooling up in his/her car & Maura gets in & they hurry off unseen.

How to confirm all this? If the right person talks to Maura's school acquaintances I think they will learn the truth since it has been so long.
Find Maura's friend/confidante & you have probably found the person who helped her disappear.

So did Maura's cold feet last this long? Possibly, since going back would entail much embarrassment & lots of explaining. Could friend have decided to kill her for the money she had withdrawn? Possibly.

Could she have just joined the army? Sure - I found some google entries of track& field times with her name mentioned & the word army next to it.
Could she have just went to another job that she had quietly set up ahead of time? Yes.

Wherever Maura is I am sure she needs all our prayers and I hope this night finds her safe & warm and at peace with her decisions.

 

[dannyodie]

I have been mulling this one over in my mind. I wasn't going to get involved with it at first for several reasons, one of which is she seems to have wished to disappear & I have to respect that choice. But one W.S. has the name 'prayers for maura' and that stuck in my mind and so I mulled it over. I hope it ends up being a little help.

Normally when something sounds wild & hard to believe it usually means its a lie. Yes I know there are exceptions to that rule but in lack of other info I play the odds. The bus driver's story did not sound likely and it could have been just a way to cover his backside if someone had spotted him speaking to Maura. But what if he spoke the truth?

What about her pulling money out of bank? That sounds very much like the bride-with-cold-feet case.

So how could the bus driver be telling the truth & yet Maura have disappeared so easily and so fast? Well, if she wanted to disappear she might have enlisted the help of someone she knew in school or in town.

Let's say she speaks to friend & the plan is for friend to follow her to a pre arranged place & then Maura would just park the car and friend would arrive and pick her up and drop her off at her destination.

So she starts out on that day & friend goes to gas up his/her car or make other last minute arrangements but leaves town within 30 minutes (probably less) of Maura.

But Maura has a slight mishap on the road & now someone has seen her and this may alert people to her intended destination or at the very least will point people in her direction of travel. She probably had hoped for more time before the car was dicovered but it was not a serious enough problem for her to scrap the plan to disappear. She also doesn't want the cops to see her. Soon after the bus driver/witness leaves Maura's friend comes tooling up in his/her car & Maura gets in & they hurry off unseen.

How to confirm all this? If the right person talks to Maura's school acquaintances I think they will learn the truth since it has been so long.
Find Maura's friend/confidante & you have probably found the person who helped her disappear.

So did Maura's cold feet last this long? Possibly, since going back would entail much embarrassment & lots of explaining. Could friend have decided to kill her for the money she had withdrawn? Possibly.

Could she have just joined the army? Sure - I found some google entries of track& field times with her name mentioned & the word army next to it.
Could she have just went to another job that she had quietly set up ahead of time? Yes.

Wherever Maura is I am sure she needs all our prayers and I hope this night finds her safe & warm and at peace with her decisions.

interesting post, here are a few known facts according to the reports. maura packed all her stuff from the dorm and told her boss and teacher that she was leaving for a week due to a death in the family, there was no death in the family, all of this took place after she had been talking to someone over the phone, a search of her computer indicated that she was looking up directions to somewhere in vermont. the night the car wreck happened it was 12 degress and I think it was snowing or had snowed, the accident happened approx. 100 ft or yards from the bus drivers home, he ask her if she was ok and that he would call the police, she didn't want him to do that so he went back to his home and reported it anyway, 10 or so minutes later the police show up and she is no where around. if I understood the report correctly all the things she packed were still inside the car. I have always suspected the bus driver from the start, he is the only known last person to physically see her alive, some report mentioned that the bus driver got on his school bus to finish paper work in 12 degree weather, that is really odd if that occured, maybe he offered her some refuge in the bus until someone could come and help her and maybe he caused harm to her on that bus? the man is married so I don't think he would have taken her inside. police indicate that the footprints in the snow indicated she had started walking up in the direction of the bus drivers house. the call he made to police would be a good ploy to cover his tracks, most people would do the right thing and call police of a car accident so that in it self would keep suspicion off of him. maybe the police should go back and ask him if he wouldn't mind them looking around on his property, even better ask him to take a polygraph test, he should at least be a person of interest until the police can prove otherwise.

 

[CyberLaw]

The bus driver was investigated and cleared, he is well known and respected in the neighbourhood, he phoned the cops because he was worried about Maura, they have investigated him and cleared him.

They again have training......

Maura was seen after the bus driver, some distance away avoiding any passing cars......

For this scene to be correct: Since the man was married, within the very short time, he would have had to a)abduct Maura without his wife knowing or lveaving any evidence... b) harm Maura without anyone or his wife knowing, seeing, or hearing or leaving any evidence.... c) bury Maura or put her in some other place where no one would see her or hear her(if not harmed) all within 10 minutes...........or less............while the Police were on their way, the Police that he called..........

The bus is used to transport people, do you not think that one of these people would notice something if the bus was involved......please.....

The ground is frozen solid.......he would be seen carrying something onto the bus by his wife how would anyone bury a person in solid frozen ground all within 10 minutes........the bus does not belong to him, but to the company he works for..........

He is a large man, I doubt even a very fit person could or would risk doing this while the POLICE are on the way..........and he knows they are on their way as he called them......

Would it not make "logic" to do this crime, cover your tracks, make sure all your "ducks" are in a row, get away with the crime, dispose of any evidence and then call the Police, you will control when they get there, , who knows if they will arrive in 2 minutes, or 10.......

It defies normal logic.......again.....and again.....and again..........


I again have no doubt that Maura left to start a new life on her own terms......no doubt whatsoever.......after all she is not a child, but an adult......who is free to make whatever adult choices she wants to with her own life......

Edited by Animal to remove speculation on family.

 

[Marisa714]

If I remember correctly, they aren't sure Maura ever UNPACKED her things after arriving, and I thought the sighting of Maura after the bus driver wasn't confirmed? I think that's what I remember at least. If I were went missing and I had just withdrawn most of money from the ATM and needed to get away to think for a bit, I would hope people would assume something happened to me. I can totally see where people would think she ranaway, and I hope she did! But if indeed Maura only planned on leaving for a little while to think b/c she was bothered/upset by something, I can see myself doing exactly what she did. If I'm contemplating things in my life or I'm upset about something, anything serious I NEVER tell people until after the fact. If it's something minor I will though. I'm just the type of person who really NEEDS to be alone to figure things out. Sorry this is so long, I hope this makes sense too! I wanted to add that I respect everybodys opinions, and I think it's awesome when someone posts his/her theory!

Marisa

 

[docwho3]

You also believe that Maura left for her own reasons. Ok. Having noted that . . . .I don't mean to be rude or to rain on anyones parade but I have some questions:

The bus driver was investigated and cleared, he is well known and respected in the neighbourhood, he phoned the cops because he was worried about Maura, they have investigated him and cleared him.

I am curious as you seem to be quoting from some surce of info which I have not yet seen. Care to elaborate on that source?

Maura was seen after the bus driver, some distance away avoiding any passing cars......

This was confirmed by whom? More confirmed facts are always welcome.

For this scene to be correct: Since the man was married, within the very short time, he would have had to a)abduct Maura without his wife knowing or lveaving any evidence... b) harm Maura without anyone or his wife knowing, seeing, or hearing or leaving any evidence.... c) bury Maura or put her in some other place where no one would see her or hear her(if not harmed) all within 10 minutes...........or less............while the Police were on their way, the Police that he called..........

Without knowing your source of information I can only ask:
How do we know it was 'in a very short time?' We only have his evidence as to when he first saw her according to the skimpy website pages I have seen posted. If he was lying then quite a bit of time might have elapsed between him first seeing her & him calling police. Once we throw out his stated time line and assume he had more time than he let on he then has time to do whatever needed doing (unless other info proves different.) Perhaps it was only after he was done then he called the police.
Without his wife knowing. . . hmmm was she even home at that time on that day? And I have known of cases where the wife kept silent of her husband's misdeeds.

The bus is used to transport people, do you not think that one of these people would notice something if the bus was involved......please.....

Cite source please. I have not yet read that the bus had any passengers on it at the time the driver allegedly saw Maura. If he was heading home it is conceivable that the bus was empty but I always prefer facts over speculation. (Note: I have 'heard' it said on this forum,although not by you, that the bus was a school bus but have not yet seen that confirmed either.)

how would anyone bury a person in solid frozen ground all within 10 minutes

I have already mentioned that he may have had much more time than he first said. Frozen ground? I have read the temp was about 12 degrees (F?) that day but I have not confirmed that by weather records for the area. But I have not yet heard from anyone that the ground was frozen (not knowing the previous several days temps either) but even frozen ground is not a problem if he actually had more time than he let on in his version of events. There are lots of way the body could have been stored for later disposal and a cold temp actually aids in that endeavour.


In short, While I agree that Maura probably did disappear on purpose, I also think its fair to admit that the bus driver could have killed her. (unless someone can cite verifiable sources that say otherwise. New verifiable facts are always welcome.)

I can see it might have happened something like this:Maura plans to disappear for awhile to think things out but has mishap on road. Bus driver finds her and takes her somewhere -probably his own house or maybe a barn if he parks bus in a barn, has his way with her if he wants that and has her & possibly her cash (I never read that the cash was recovered.)

If it was snowing hard & a barn was involved I doubt wife would even have seen anything from 100 yards away and once in a barn her sight would be blocked. But it is also possible even without a barn that wife simply refused to turn her hubby in- either from love or fear or maybe both & that all assumes she was home that day at that time.

Anyway after the deed is done & the body stashed either in the barn (if there was one) or somewhere out of sight (at 12 degrees body might soon be frozen and not have normal decay odor) bus driver has the scene just as he wants the cops to find it so he calls the police. They show up & he gives them his rather implausible story of an almost magic disappearance.

I don't think that's what really happened but until you or someone else comes forth with verifiable sources to prove it didn't happen that way I can't rule it out in my own mind as a possibility.

Thx for your patience.

 

[Marisa714]

Welcome to Websleuths Docwho3!!!!! You have some interesting ideas! I've wondered before if the bus driver 'could' have had something to do with it....now that you put it together it seems very possible IMO. I personally don't trust LE working (or more like not working IMO) on Maura's case. I'm basing this on what I've read about them though.

 

[CyberLaw]

Docwho3, everything that I have said is a matter of public record, please do your own research, I don' have the time yet again to rehash old facts.

But in the dead of winter, in February, in New Hampshire, with snow on the ground, what are the odds that the ground is NOT frozen.

Please, I live in Canada.....

There is a timeline here, an elderly couple saw Maura after the bus driver safe and sound.

Please the concept of Maura and the bus driver has long been discounted by LE and intelligent people who are aware of all of the facts.......

I have a funny feeling that Maura did not want to finish school and become a nurse like her Mom, go to the same school as her Dad, and was "tired" of her relationship with "Big Bill", but the only way she could get out of this situation is to runaway from everything and everyone.......

From the Project Jason website:

This is very telling - There are times we feel guilty - and we play over and over so many things in our minds: if we ever caused you to feel insecure in our love or to doubt that we wanted you to be a part of our family, please forgive us

Edited by Animal to remove speculation about family.

 

[Marisa714]

Docwho3, everything that I have said is a matter of public record, please do your own research, I don' have the time yet again to rehash old facts.

But in the dead of winter, in February, in New Hampshire, with snow on the ground, what are the odds that the ground is NOT frozen.

Please, I live in Canada.....

There is a timeline here, an elderly couple saw Maura after the bus driver safe and sound.

Please the concept of Maura and the bus driver has long been discounted by LE and intelligent people who are aware of all of the facts.......

I have a funny feeling that Maura did not want to finish school and become a nurse like her Mom, go to the same school as her Dad, and was "tired" of her relationship with "Big Bill", but the only way she could get out of this situation is to runaway from everything and everyone.......

JW what makes you draw these conclusions about Maura's family....do you know her family? And what makes you so certain Maura wanted to end her relationship with Bill? I know you said it's a 'funny feeling', but is there any other reason besides a 'funny feeling' that you think that? Just curious...

 

[Peabody]

<snip>
Why do they call her former boyfriend "Big Bill", that is odd to me.......>

QUOTE]

FYI to first time readers: I do not recall ever agreeing with any of your posts (Cyberlaw) regarding Maura's missing.

I follow Maura's case very closely and have absolutely no idea where you could come up with the idea that Maura's boyfriend should be called "former boyfriend" and/or that he is called "Big Bill". In addition, even if the boyfriend is called "Big Bill", I certainly don't find it odd that he might have a nickname.

I know that in newspaper articles, Maura's boyfriend has been referred to both as Billy" and as "Bill".

To my knowledge, the only tiime that "Big Bill" has ever been in print is in the letter from Sharon to Maura featured on Voice4theMissing. However, anyone who took the time to read all of Kelly's blog could not be confused or mistakenly assume "Big Bill" for "Billy" or "Bill", Maura's boyfriend.

Please check out the letter from Sharon to Maura in the blog on Voice4theMissing in which she refers to both "Big Bill" and "Billy" http://voice4themissing.blogspot.com/2005/10/100305-all-american-girl-conclusion.html

While I do not agree with your assessment that Maura ran away, I so pray that you are correct.

Bring Maura Home!
www.mauramurray.com
www.spbowers.com\mauramissing.html

 

[docwho3]

Docwho3, everything that I have said is a matter of public record, please do your own research, I don' have the time yet again to rehash old facts.

But in the dead of winter, in February, in New Hampshire, with snow on the ground, what are the odds that the ground is NOT frozen.

Please, I live in Canada.....

There is a timeline here, an elderly couple saw Maura after the bus driver safe and sound.

Please the concept of Maura and the bus driver has long been discounted by LE and intelligent people who are aware of all of the facts.......

I have a funny feeling that Maura did not want to finish school and become a nurse like her Mom, go to the same school as her Dad, and was "tired" of her relationship with "Big Bill", but the only way she could get out of this situation is to runaway from everything and everyone.......
From the Project Jason website:

This is very telling - There are times we feel guilty - and we play over and over so many things in our minds: if we ever caused you to feel insecure in our love or to doubt that we wanted you to be a part of our family, please forgive us

Ok - you make statements a if pronouncing the gospel but won't or can't cite sources to back up your statements & resort to snide remarks about not doing someone elses work for them. hmmmm That's your choice but most of us here try to supply info to help & not just snipe. And I am suposed to just take your word for everything? Trust that you know how to even do quality research? Trust that you would never fudge on facts just to win points when posting? I don't even know you other than as a personality on the web so why should I take your word about info? But I won't waste anymore time reading posts from someone who refuses to cite their sources because in effect they are just offering wild speculation without labeling it as such.

For the rest of you who may be curious:
My point in asking for sources is that anyone can put up a website and make any outrageous claim but that does not make the info correct. Therefor I want to see the info source myself and possibly see what more official internet resources confirm what I read on someones 'homepage'. I may even want to look at the coding of some websites. I may want to see if there is more info than was mentioned which might lead to other angles to investigate. But that's just my opinion and its only how I myself work.
I hope it doesn't get anyone elses nose out of joint.

 

[PrayersForMaura]

(February 9, 2004)
March,
April,
May - Maura turned 22,
June,
July,
August,
September,
October,
November,
December - Christmas,
January,
February - Missing one year,
March,
April,
May - Maura turned 23,
June,
July,
August,
September,
October

Maura's family has had to endure twenty (20) months of not knowing what happened to her.​

SOMEBODY KNOWS SOMETHING...PLEASE HELP THE MURRAY FAMILY FIND MAURA​

can we go talk to the bus driver ourselves?

 

[Peabody]

Ok - you make statements a if pronouncing the gospel but won't or can't cite sources to back up your statements & resort to snide remarks about not doing someone elses work for them. hmmmm That's your choice but most of us here try to supply info to help & not just snipe. And I am suposed to just take your word for everything? Trust that you know how to even do quality research? Trust that you would never fudge on facts just to win points when posting? I don't even know you other than as a personality on the web so why should I take your word about info? But I won't waste anymore time reading posts from someone who refuses to cite their sources because in effect they are just offering wild speculation without labeling it as such.

For the rest of you who may be curious:
My point in asking for sources is that anyone can put up a website and make any outrageous claim but that does not make the info correct. Therefor I want to see the info source myself and possibly see what more official internet resources confirm what I read on someones 'homepage'. I may even want to look at the coding of some websites. I may want to see if there is more info than was mentioned which might lead to other angles to investigate. But that's just my opinion and its only how I myself work.
I hope it doesn't get anyone elses nose out of joint.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

 

[Hammerized]

Peabody, PrayersForMaura...

I came across an odd (very out of place for this part of NH!) execution-style murder in Haverhill, NH in my local paper recently, and something about it kept me interested.

http://www.wcax.com/Global/story.asp?S=3918456&nav=4QcS

http://www.thewmurchannel.com/news/5057110/detail.html

http://www.theunionleader.com/articles_showfast.html?article=61197

Perhaps the seemingly "random" nature of this execution, coupled with the location of the victim- Haverhill. Or maybe it was the victim's profession- building patios and stone walls... But something about it raised my hackles.

Did Thomas know something about Maura's disappearance? Did he discover a buried body while building a stone wall or patio?

Just some blue-sky thoughts here. His execution is unexplained so far, and there has been no link to any criminal involvement on his part released so far.

Small towns in NH are, well, small towns. It is indeed rare for murders to occur, let alone executions. And so I wonder- did Tom know something about Maura?

Just an idea, something to keep an eye on.

 

[Kelly]

This is very telling - There are times we feel guilty - and we play over and over so many things in our minds: if we ever caused you to feel insecure in our love or to doubt that we wanted you to be a part of our family, please forgive us

It is common for a family with a missing loved one to make public statements of hope. No one knows for sure, in most cases, if their loved one is dead or alive. I have made many such public statements in case my son could read what I said, such as: "No matter what, we forgive you. We just want you to come home."

Does that mean that there is neccesarily something to forgive, some hidden secret act? No, it is simply a statement made to cover the bases. It is also normal for families of the missing to feel guilt and question anything they may have said or done to cause the loved one's disappearance. This guilt is typically present regardless of the type of disappearance.

"Big Bill" refers to Sharon's husband, Bill, in the story on my blog. Maura's fiancee is always referred to as "Billy".

This is just a friendly reminder that this is the support forum, rather than the discussion forum. The types of postings seen here in the past 24 hours should go on the Missing Discussion Forum. This forum is to be a "safe haven" for families of the missing, where if they should be reading, they do not see themselves or their missing loved ones torn about or written about as if they were just a theory. It is hurtful to those left behind. It's painful enough as it is without seeing those postings. If you need this clarified, I'm sure a moderator would be happy to do that. Most posters write in a respectful manner, but some do not. Thank you.

Kelly