NIV Study Bible - listen carefully/SBTC

There is one thing I've learned from religious people I met in my life and who explained to me why they believe in God,etc,.This is something between you and God,it's private.You don't go on national TV to brag about it,you don't use it in your games.I don't really believe in God (and I have my reasons,did believe when I was younger),NOR do I reject it's existence,frankly I don't think about it much and I don't care what's out there,if it's God if it's something else,I don't care.
But I've been talking to a lof of folks who believe.And I ended up respecting them even if their views are different than mine.Their arguments were based on feelings and passion and life in general,moral rules.On the other hand I've heard of lots of people doing some very nasty stuff "in the name of God" (could have happened in this case).
But what I see when looking at these two........I see two hypocrites.They preach something they don't believe in IMO.
This "we forgive,justice will be in heaven" is just a line they use to shut us up.It worked very well with people like L.Smit IMO
Religion is part of their defense,it's just a tool for them.This is how I see it and this is what I don't agree with.
 
Alrighty then. I take this conversation as a confession, by both of them, that they committed Jon Benets murder. They certainly gave enough excuses and justifications. Absolutely bizarre.
 
I've watched this interview on video and when Scott asks

SCOTT: The bottom line, below the bottom line, people will ask me, "O.K., you've come out of this, confidentially, what do you think? There is also a side not only as a journalist, but being an ordained minister in the church, to say to other pastors, if they ask me, "Would you recommend to let these people come to my church?"

JR's answer

JOHN: Let me ask you this? What if we were murderers? Would we be denied access to a church? I hope not.


is foxy and superior as usual,something like "whaaaaat,killers or not,you're not better than us,you can't treat us different,you can't take it away from us,killers or not,if we wanna go to church we will and you have to let us in cause it's not up to you to judge us,don't you dare judge us "


if you have access to the video (link's no longer working for me but maybe someone has another) pls watch how his demeanor changes.
 
Wow. Just wow.

Y'all are rocking it.

I found myself thinking about this and realizing how many times the Ramseys have told us exactly what THEY WANT US TO BELIEVE--the Team Ramsey talking points/intruder list. In their interviews, they go over and over the details of the evidence and how that leads to their intruder, WHY that "creature" went after them, WHAT he did that night in their home, etc. They knew and remembered so many details of the evidence that pointed to the intruder, but so few details about their own property, actions, and children.

Even in 1998, they knew so many details about the evidence, when looking at what they specified and explained in those LE interviews, it becomes clear to me: THEY WANTED those Biblical passages of revenge to be interpreted as WHY this "creature" went after them. Revenge. The note was meant to inspire fear. Target--nebulous; was it the "government" but not AG; was it "two gentlemen watching over her don't like you" John? Certainly it wasn't Patsy, because she was cut out of the note in an early practice. Was it JonBenet herself, the victim of some pageant pervert? Yet she was just a tool in the ransom note, an innocent used as a means to achieve an end. But her body tells another story eventually--but only after the ransom note has presented a red herring.

The plan: with the ransom note pointing to intruders, when the body was quickly found by LE after they arrived, the Ramseys, protected by the confusion and number of friends around, could get out to the ready-to-fly plane and head out of town faster than the BPD could figure out it was all staged. Who could blame them for that, with those terrorists after them?

But even the best laid plan will go awry, and they were winging it--no pun intended. The BPD didn't find the body! Nor did anyone else. No wonder they sent Linda Arndt flowers.

So if this is the gist of it, then the Ramseys went to a lot of trouble to set up the staging, didn't they? So much so, that it was all darn near impossible to follow. So when Patsy and John finally got to talk to LE, especially so-easy-to-manipulate Smit, they could at last make use of those obscure "clues" they left. They kept explaining this and that, pointing fingers here and there, but always it was someone else's idea, not theirs: Father Rol, Lou Smit, etc. I'd be money that it wasn't Father Rol's idea at all that the ransom note amount was linked to a Bible verse. John and other sources said they sat around that morning, in the home, reading the copy of the ransom note, trying to "figure it out." I bet they did.

So when looking at John and Patsy's interviews with LE, when they denied recognizing things, often something any wife or husband should have known about the other, I know they're trying to distance themselves, afraid of disclosing info that might reveal the truth: like what John's habits were in reading his Bible, whether he left it open sometimes, but then claiming oh, no, that would be unusual, then changing the topic--they wanted LE to believe the intruder circled those passages, I believe; whether JonBenet washed her hands or her bathing or bathroom habits--they didn't want to give out info that might end up pointing the finger at them; what medications a spouse took--didn't want to implicate anyone's state of mind; etc.

So looking at these passages, drawing in the Ramseys' many stories about them and the Bible and God and the ransom note, it all begins to make sense. The tone in the ransom note was meant to lead LE to believe an intruder wanted revenge for something--but hey, not to hurt Access Graphics, that money machine that they needed to keep themselves rich and influential, especially now that they'd be paying big lawyer fees.

I know, I'm going on and on, but I sort of put some things together in my mind last night that I had waivered about until now. One is that I believe John Ramsey was in on the cover up, at least. I see this because he lied so many times about what really happened BEFORE the murder: he said he carried JB upstairs and took off her coat and shoes--but her coat was in the car, not somewhere he'd likely take it after removing it in the home; he said he read the ransom note on the floor, on his hands and knees, a story so fantastic I can only imagine how they tripped up there. The story about the broken window is patently impossible, as far as I can re-enact it--you can't back out of a narrow window well on your hands and knees and drop 4 ft. to the floor without flopping on your belly, scratching heck out of your bare knees--took his suit off but left his shoes on? Why wouldn't he just sit down and scoot through lke Smit? Obviously John's story has huge holes in it. However/whenever it got broken, John was lying, IMO.

The Ramseys not only denied that JonBenet ate pineapple after they returned home because they put her to bed asleep, but John said he didn't recognize the bowl as theirs; Patsy implied it wasn't even their pineapple. Patsy never used duct tape, she claimed, though its clearly seen in crime scene photos of the basement, on boxes in the room where she had her wrapping paper and clear plastic boxes of ribbons...and other "stuff" to tie things. John denied having any such duct tape and said White did, HE was the sailor, not himself, White would know knots, etc, not John; though Patsy identified John and his older children as competing in sailing competitions two years in a row in her Christmas letters, with John even designing his second sailboat; she wrote about Burke taking sailing lessons and called Burke a sailor, no less.

Obviously, I could go on and on...but my point is both the Ramseys were lying to LE, lying to the public, and unless someone can explain another credible reason for that, it only makes sense they'd do that to cover up for a killer if that person was one or more of those in the home that night.

Now looking at the religious "clues" left behind, in the ransom note and Bible passages circled, in the Ramseys interviews where they kept repeating those elements as motive, I see what they were trying to use as motive for the intruder to kill JonBenet--revenge, righteous and absolute in the mind of the "intruder," irrational "creature" thinking, coming from someone whose mental state was as unquestioning as faith and impenetrable as the mind of God. So there's never going to be "an explanation," just a void filled with "healing" and "forgiveness" for the Ramseys.

And God will get them through this "calamity" as well, because Patsy was the source of that faith, after all, the ransom note, the Bible passages. VICTORY!

So JonBenet was in heaven, all happy and no suffering, Patsy was going there, too, and all the suffering they caused others with their lies and destruction--VICTORY! And they live--and die--"just fine," as Patsy put it.

Yet another coincidence with the intruder: he was extremely religious, too. The Ramseys pointed to those clues many times, "left behind" by the person who wrote the ransom note.

Thank you, Plenum and others who have clarified this for me. I have looked for a long time for these answers to the psychology of the Ramseys and how it manifested into the staging the night of this murder.

Now to see if and/or how that applies to the violence acted upon JonBenet....
 
Wow. Just wow.

Y'all are rocking it.

I found myself thinking about this and realizing how many times the Ramseys have told us exactly what THEY WANT US TO BELIEVE--the Team Ramsey talking points/intruder list. In their interviews, they go over and over the details of the evidence and how that leads to their intruder, WHY that "creature" went after them, WHAT he did that night in their home, etc. They knew and remembered so many details of the evidence that pointed to the intruder, but so few details about their own property, actions, and children.

Even in 1998, they knew so many details about the evidence, when looking at what they specified and explained in those LE interviews, it becomes clear to me: THEY WANTED those Biblical passages of revenge to be interpreted as WHY this "creature" went after them. Revenge. The note was meant to inspire fear. Target--nebulous; was it the "government" but not AG; was it "two gentlemen watching over her don't like you" John? Certainly it wasn't Patsy, because she was cut out of the note in an early practice. Was it JonBenet herself, the victim of some pageant pervert? Yet she was just a tool in the ransom note, an innocent used as a means to achieve an end. But her body tells another story eventually--but only after the ransom note has presented a red herring.

The plan: with the ransom note pointing to intruders, when the body was quickly found by LE after they arrived, the Ramseys, protected by the confusion and number of friends around, could get out to the ready-to-fly plane and head out of town faster than the BPD could figure out it was all staged. Who could blame them for that, with those terrorists after them?

But even the best laid plan will go awry, and they were winging it--no pun intended. The BPD didn't find the body! Nor did anyone else. No wonder they sent Linda Arndt flowers.

So if this is the gist of it, then the Ramseys went to a lot of trouble to set up the staging, didn't they? So much so, that it was all darn near impossible to follow. So when Patsy and John finally got to talk to LE, especially so-easy-to-manipulate Smit, they could at last make use of those obscure "clues" they left. They kept explaining this and that, pointing fingers here and there, but always it was someone else's idea, not theirs: Father Rol, Lou Smit, etc. I'd be money that it wasn't Father Rol's idea at all that the ransom note amount was linked to a Bible verse. John and other sources said they sat around that morning, in the home, reading the copy of the ransom note, trying to "figure it out." I bet they did.

So when looking at John and Patsy's interviews with LE, when they denied recognizing things, often something any wife or husband should have known about the other, I know they're trying to distance themselves, afraid of disclosing info that might reveal the truth: like what John's habits were in reading his Bible, whether he left it open sometimes, but then claiming oh, no, that would be unusual, then changing the topic--they wanted LE to believe the intruder circled those passages, I believe; whether JonBenet washed her hands or her bathing or bathroom habits--they didn't want to give out info that might end up pointing the finger at them; what medications a spouse took--didn't want to implicate anyone's state of mind; etc.

So looking at these passages, drawing in the Ramseys' many stories about them and the Bible and God and the ransom note, it all begins to make sense. The tone in the ransom note was meant to lead LE to believe an intruder wanted revenge for something--but hey, not to hurt Access Graphics, that money machine that they needed to keep themselves rich and influential, especially now that they'd be paying big lawyer fees.

I know, I'm going on and on, but I sort of put some things together in my mind last night that I had waivered about until now. One is that I believe John Ramsey was in on the cover up, at least. I see this because he lied so many times about what really happened BEFORE the murder: he said he carried JB upstairs and took off her coat and shoes--but her coat was in the car, not somewhere he'd likely take it after removing it in the home; he said he read the ransom note on the floor, on his hands and knees, a story so fantastic I can only imagine how they tripped up there. The story about the broken window is patently impossible, as far as I can re-enact it--you can't back out of a narrow window well on your hands and knees and drop 4 ft. to the floor without flopping on your belly, scratching heck out of your bare knees--took his suit off but left his shoes on? Why wouldn't he just sit down and scoot through lke Smit? Obviously John's story has huge holes in it. However/whenever it got broken, John was lying, IMO.

The Ramseys not only denied that JonBenet ate pineapple after they returned home because they put her to bed asleep, but John said he didn't recognize the bowl as theirs; Patsy implied it wasn't even their pineapple. Patsy never used duct tape, she claimed, though its clearly seen in crime scene photos of the basement, on boxes in the room where she had her wrapping paper and clear plastic boxes of ribbons...and other "stuff" to tie things. John denied having any such duct tape and said White did, HE was the sailor, not himself, White would know knots, etc, not John; though Patsy identified John and his older children as competing in sailing competitions two years in a row in her Christmas letters, with John even designing his second sailboat; she wrote about Burke taking sailing lessons and called Burke a sailor, no less.

Obviously, I could go on and on...but my point is both the Ramseys were lying to LE, lying to the public, and unless someone can explain another credible reason for that, it only makes sense they'd do that to cover up for a killer if that person was one or more of those in the home that night.

Now looking at the religious "clues" left behind, in the ransom note and Bible passages circled, in the Ramseys interviews where they kept repeating those elements as motive, I see what they were trying to use as motive for the intruder to kill JonBenet--revenge, righteous and absolute in the mind of the "intruder," irrational "creature" thinking, coming from someone whose mental state was as unquestioning as faith and impenetrable as the mind of God. So there's never going to be "an explanation," just a void filled with "healing" and "forgiveness" for the Ramseys.

And God will get them through this "calamity" as well, because Patsy was the source of that faith, after all, the ransom note, the Bible passages. VICTORY!

So JonBenet was in heaven, all happy and no suffering, Patsy was going there, too, and all the suffering they caused others with their lies and destruction--VICTORY! And they live--and die--"just fine," as Patsy put it.

Yet another coincidence with the intruder: he was extremely religious, too. The Ramseys pointed to those clues many times, "left behind" by the person who wrote the ransom note.

Thank you, Plenum and others who have clarified this for me. I have looked for a long time for these answers to the psychology of the Ramseys and how it manifested into the staging the night of this murder.

Now to see if and/or how that applies to the violence acted upon JonBenet....

:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap: Take a bow, KoldKase. You have earned it!!!!!
 
I see what they were trying to use as motive for the intruder to kill JonBenet--revenge, righteous and absolute in the mind of the "intruder," irrational "creature" thinking, coming from someone whose mental state was as unquestioning as faith and impenetrable as the mind of God. So there's never going to be "an explanation," just a void filled with "healing" and "forgiveness" for the Ramseys.

And God will get them through this "calamity" as well, because Patsy was the source of that faith, after all, the ransom note, the Bible passages. VICTORY!

So JonBenet was in heaven, all happy and no suffering, Patsy was going there, too, and all the suffering they caused others with their lies and destruction--VICTORY! And they live--and die--"just fine," as Patsy put it.

Very respectfully snipped.

Ah yes, Victory. Saved By The Cash. They were "above" us normal people, understood the Bible better you see. They are exonerated in the eyes of GOD (in their minds).

Yikes. That was bitter, wasn't it? That's not like me, especially when it comes to religious views. Perhaps I have been doing a bit too much reading and research.
 
S.B.T.Cash. Thanks, tragco. Whether or not they meant it, it certainly turned out that way, didn't it?
Don't be too hard on yourself for being bitter. You are in some very good company around here.
 
I hate the fact that religion is being used to condemn or exonerate the R's.

Jesus came to save the sinner not the saint.

John makes a good point about Christian hypocrisy. A church should welcome all people regardless.

Analyzing the R's religious beliefs- Patsy's statement would also apply to JBR's murderer being caught. God will make something good happen from something evil that has happened. The only good to come from it would be if a killer is caught and future lives saved. She could have been referring to that.

I could see the R's even praying in a courtroom with an IDI and asking God to forgive. Sitting back down and giving testimony against the perp later. They may pray for the soul but the body will have to pay the earthly price.

I don't see the hypocrisy that the few posters have pointed to just more armchair quarterbacking.

Since the Bible had those two passages circled, did JR circle them, and does he have other passages circled as well? In other words is this his "study" bible?

If he didn't circle them where is the pen that was used to circle them?

Is the info about his liking of the Psalms "public" info?

Kinda like a company newsletter that stated now that JR has had time to grieve his daughters death(Beth) he would like to Thank all the employees and others who gave him solace. He found strength in Psalms 35 and Thanks everyone who sent out prayers and comfort.

If an IDI is true and someone like AA Shore had access to it, and hated John, they may have wanted to use it.
 
If this crime was just about getting back at John,well,it didn't work at all cause John forgives and forgets and wants to move on.
So I guess if you hate John so much,murder his kid but see that it didn't work,it didn't crush nor upset John too much I guess you would go on and try something else?Cause such hate doesn't go away that easy.
 
The posters here are not the ones who brought religion into this mess. That would have been the Ramseys themselves. Anyone who goes on television and talks about their religious beliefs opens themselves up for discussion and opinion. My Christianity is between me and my Lord except for the testimony that I live every day of my life. The old saying that says "you may be the only Bible some folks will ever read" is very true and I try to keep this in mind in my daily walk. I am far from perfect and anyone who knows me also knows that. By God's word we are not to judge others but He does tell us to discern the spirit and not to just blindly believe what others say and do just because they say and do it in His name. This is why the Ramseys religious views come into this, not because we all want to judge them because of their religious views. Those of us on this board who are true Christians should be able to discern whether or not the Ramseys are being genuine when they talk of their Lord and Saviour. Those that profess to not believe in God are entitled to their opinion whether or not we agree with it, that's one of the gifts of our wonderful Constitution.
 
I am referring more to LOU SMIT who exonerated the R's based on his on observance of their faith.

We shouldn't do the same thing in the opposite.
 
I believe God has the power to forgive anyone for anything so who knows where Patsy is now and where John will end up, however, in my mind the only way I can deal with it is if Patsy made it to Heaven she is sitting under a tree painting, she is not skipping down the streets holding JonBenet's hand and getting her dressed for another pagent, JonBenet is safe at the side of Jesus with all the other children that grown up humans let down in ways most of us can not imagine, never having to deal with them again. This is my new prayer, Lord please keep any person that harmed a child away from children in Heaven as we can't seem to do that on earth.
This case can have you sitting down crying at times but to throw God's name around in the middle of it like they did just burns me up. Beck was right, it's in your heart and your actions, you don't have to "remind" everybody verbally what kind of person you are every chance you get.
 
I don't give Lou Smit's exoneration any merit whatsoever. If one of my brothers or sisters in Christ were to be accused of a crime such as this I would not want to believe it but I would examine all the evidence before I judged them innocent. His actions were a blatant lack of professionalism and he should have been taken off the case immediately after that.
 
I don't give Lou Smit's exoneration any merit whatsoever. If one of my brothers or sisters in Christ were to be accused of a crime such as this I would not want to believe it but I would examine all the evidence before I judged them innocent. His actions were a blatant lack of professionalism and he should have been taken off the case immediately after that.


In all fairness having LE cover both ends would be the best way to quickly solve the case. ( Quick did not happen here) Some assigned to investigate the RDI's and some to investigate the IDI's. It is obvious Lou Smit was on the IDI side but his public exoneration, unless supported by his superiors should never had made it to the press.
The same should be said of most the tabloid articles citing proof of the R's guilt.

The press doesn't hold to the Innocent until proven Guilty in a court of law rule, they don't have to but should. It is a moral question every journalism student and journalist faces when doing crime reporting.

Huge amounts of false information was put out there in the tabs.
 
If this crime was just about getting back at John,well,it didn't work at all cause John forgives and forgets and wants to move on.
So I guess if you hate John so much,murder his kid but see that it didn't work,it didn't crush nor upset John too much I guess you would go on and try something else?Cause such hate doesn't go away that easy.

Exactly .... the statement may have been an effort to get the IDI to do something that would give them away. Call the home, send a letter along with the missing paint brush piece and a description of what they did to JBR and how much they enjoyed it. Something that might lead the LE to the IDI.

To an IDI any action they take is going to lead the police to them so they do not respond directly.

Instead they may get into a huge argument with someone at work, they behave strangely or say something out of context to someone else. It may not be an advertisement saying her I am come and get me. If an IDI is caught and a case is being built around them. The way they behaved after learning of the R's forgiveness may be relevant as it shows the mindset of that individual.

Example-- Girlfriend and Boyfriend are watching news together. Story about R's and forgiveness is shown. Boyfriend then becomes very moody and upset later blowing up at girlfriend. He isn't really that mad she bought new curtains but makes a huge deal of it as something else was the true cause of his anger. He makes some strange statements like- who do you think we are the R's with all their money? That would be a strange statement and would show he is thinking about the R's not the curtains.


This strategy could also have been dangerous as an IDI might have decided to kill someone else to take his anger out on.

Job has a life lesson for anyone going through hard times. It is in hard times that our faith is most tested. If we are like Job and cling tighter to GOD when the times are hard he will carry you through it, if not then we become the victims of Satan who will make your hard times even worse.

Job is relevant to all people as it shows how to behave during hard times and all lives will have hard times. It crosses all barriers, social, economic, etc, because the human life will be filled with challenges and sorrows.

I see the R's as being religious people and find no fault or proof of guilt in their viewpoints and actions when their faith is made public and they tell everyone about the path their lives have taken.
It is supposed to be done, testify as to how GOD has affected your life.

It is a major part of some churches regular worship services to have someone testify as to how GOD used them or helped them.
 
I am not trying to argue whether the Ramseys were correct or true or whatever in their religious beliefs. Just want to say that. At least, it's not my intention.

What I am speaking to is their state of mind as to writing the ransom note, staging the crime scene, etc.

Obviously, I look at this as I do because I believe the evidence is clear: the Ramseys were the only ones in the home, they obstructed the investigation and continue to do so to this day, and the physical and circumstantial evidence overwhelmingly points to them as perpetrating the crimes against JonBenet Ramsey, on and before the night she was murdered.

If you don't believe they were involved in the murder, then obviously you don't believe their religion played any part in it. So no point in arguing there.

The issue which I address, believing what I do, is how their religion factored into it. I also agree that the Ramseys brought religion into this murder, like they brought an "intruder" into our lives: by going on TV and speaking of it, countless times; writing a book; etc.
 
[snip]

I see the R's as being religious people and find no fault or proof of guilt in their viewpoints and actions when their faith is made public and they tell everyone about the path their lives have taken.
It is supposed to be done, testify as to how GOD has affected your life.

It is a major part of some churches regular worship services to have someone testify as to how GOD used them or helped them.

If you want to put it into that context, okay. If they were involved in the death of their child and/or the staging and cover up that followed, then their "religious" testimony would be based in lies and deceit. That's exactly what I believe it was.

So if that is true, then in the worst way they took "the Lord's name in vain." They used "God" and "Christ" to sway people to believe their lies, to project a false image of themselves, and to hide terrible acts against an innocent child.

If that is true, then they also gave "false witness" against COUNTLESS innocent and very injured people.

In religious terms, this would be very wrong, would it not? So in this context, if one believes they were involved in this murder and cover up, these are very devious people, certainly sinful, even evil.

I'm not going to make a "religious" judgment about that here, though I have before, I admit. Now I'm simply looking at how they used religion to cover up the murder, to gain sympathy among people who share their religion, and trying to figure out if it actually played a part IN the violence acted upon JonBenet.

I'm simply trying to understand their thought processes that allowed this to happen, maybe propelled it, and then perpetuated it for all these years.
.
 

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