NIV Study Bible - listen carefully/SBTC

[freshwater]

"The two gentlemen watching over your daughter do not particularly like you so I advise you not to provoke them."

A part of me wonders if the "two gentlemen" referenced in the note are God and his son, Jesus Christ? (as in, the writer of the note already knew JonBenet was dead at the time of writing it)

If so, why would God and his son Jesus not like John?

Maybe I'm overanalyzing.

 

[KoldKase]

"The two gentlemen watching over your daughter do not particularly like you so I advise you not to provoke them."

A part of me wonders if the "two gentlemen" referenced in the note are God and his son, Jesus Christ? (as in, the writer of the note already knew JonBenet was dead at the time of writing it)

If so, why would God and his son Jesus not like John?

Maybe I'm overanalyzing.

In the deafening silence of a cold case, there's not much we can do but overanalyze.

 

[joeskidbeck]

I know the Ramseys went to church before JonBenet's death, but after her death, they needed the comfort of God's love and forgiveness in a really big way. IF they did kill her, accidentally I would believe, then they needed the assurance that they could be forgiven for it. For this reason I'm a firm believer that they studied the Word more than they ever had before. They knew it was possible to be forgiven, but I wonder if they realize that they needed a contrite spirit for this forgiveness to happen? Some of you may have seen them offer a contrite spirit, but for the life of me, I never did. I would love to be able to defend the Ramseys actions and words but they have never shown me anything defendable. That's what's so sad to me. They lost the most beautiful part of their life and that breaks my heart for her and for them, but they won't let us offer any kind of support because of their attitude. Yes, I know there are those on this board who defend them, but I cannot see the reasoning behind it. I have tried over the years and it just won't happen for me.

 

[CathyR]

You can't imagine what it is like to be an over night sensation. I can't either but it made the R's close ranks and dig in. Media in all forms hounding them, weirdos coming out of the woodwork, offers from people and hatred too. People of all kinds wanting to know the TRUTH BEHIND JON BENET RAMSEY.
I heard people got banned here for being so hateful to each other that it was a necessity.
I remember hearing some of the stuff and having friends who believed the tabs and told me.
Things got out of control real fast and I am surprised they( the R's) weathered the storm so well.


I see their religious activities part of the grieving process. Here is a link to what they are.

http://www.essortment.com/all/stagesofgri_rvkg.htm

I see their religious talk as parents who are going through the steps of grieving. Anger came out when they accused all their friends-driving a wedge and further suspicion on themselves. They went through acceptance when they forgave the killer.

If guilty I think they would have, at almost any cost, maintained close relationship with the Whites. The would have needed them as character witnesses and another ear from the cops. An ear not related to them and outside of the house. They might need that ear to further their cover up or to be able to make a quick get a way. It serves them better to "groom" FW and PW to be another set of eyes and ears for them than to publicly say you are on our list. Any one who knew them was on the list. They suspected someone who knew them as the RN contained some personal info on them.

The fight between Fleet and John on the day of JB's funeral can only be contributed to grief anger or denial as neither one can accept it and they don't know who to be angry at so they are angry at each other instead. Simple displacement of feelings they can't deal with, atypical of men.
They may have accused each other of the murder and JR has every reason to be suspicious Fleet didn't see her as the white blanket stuck out like a neon sign in the dark. John may have thought Fleet knew he broke the window and that Fleet was trying to cover for moving the suitcase under the window. This is where I see an innocent father behaving normally. He doesn't care about his friendship enough to care if he loses Fleet, he just lost JBR nothing else matters as much. If guilty he would have put up with whatever questioning his friend had of him. Minor annoyances or habits would be ignored. Maybe a little rehearsal would be good. If Fleet trips him up he will correct his mistake before being questioned by police about same issue. I think a guilty father would want Fleet as a friend and do just about anything to keep him. Apologizing quickly if your friend seems in the least irritated or acts suspicious of you. I just haven't been myself since all this happened how could I be so thoughtless.

Since we don't know exactly what transpired, making something up, or trying to analyze, the situation is like trying to solve a Rubik cube in the dark. I'll give it a try.

John didn't trust Fleet anymore and Fleet didn't trust John anymore.

The R's were moving away the White's were losing not only JBR but the whole family itself.

The Whites were only considered witnesses anyway because the police didn't think giving the kids cracked crab was important evidence of pedophilia grooming or the fact that Fleet was with John when the body was found. If it was a crucial key to the case or very important we would not know about it.

The whole family was witnesses, who knows what conversations went on between the kids at the party. What games did they play? I'd want to know about the adults in attendance too but I'd carefully dig out every memory I could from those kids.

If a intruder broke in while they were away they might have seen or heard something as they were away from the main crowd of adults.

 

[Zak]

You can't imagine what it is like to be an over night sensation. I can't either but it made the R's close ranks and dig in. Media in all forms hounding them, weirdos coming out of the woodwork, offers from people and hatred too. People of all kinds wanting to know the TRUTH BEHIND JON BENET RAMSEY.
I heard people got banned here for being so hateful to each other that it was a necessity.
I remember hearing some of the stuff and having friends who believed the tabs and told me.
Things got out of control real fast and I am surprised they( the R's) weathered the storm so well.


I see their religious activities part of the grieving process. Here is a link to what they are.

http://www.essortment.com/all/stagesofgri_rvkg.htm

I see their religious talk as parents who are going through the steps of grieving. Anger came out when they accused all their friends-driving a wedge and further suspicion on themselves. They went through acceptance when they forgave the killer.

If guilty I think they would have, at almost any cost, maintained close relationship with the Whites. The would have needed them as character witnesses and another ear from the cops. An ear not related to them and outside of the house. They might need that ear to further their cover up or to be able to make a quick get a way. It serves them better to "groom" FW and PW to be another set of eyes and ears for them than to publicly say you are on our list. Any one who knew them was on the list. They suspected someone who knew them as the RN contained some personal info on them.
The fight between Fleet and John on the day of JB's funeral can only be contributed to grief anger or denial as neither one can accept it and they don't know who to be angry at so they are angry at each other instead. Simple displacement of feelings they can't deal with, atypical of men.
They may have accused each other of the murder and JR has every reason to be suspicious Fleet didn't see her as the white blanket stuck out like a neon sign in the dark. John may have thought Fleet knew he broke the window and that Fleet was trying to cover for moving the suitcase under the window. This is where I see an innocent father behaving normally. He doesn't care about his friendship enough to care if he loses Fleet, he just lost JBR nothing else matters as much. If guilty he would have put up with whatever questioning his friend had of him. Minor annoyances or habits would be ignored. Maybe a little rehearsal would be good. If Fleet trips him up he will correct his mistake before being questioned by police about same issue. I think a guilty father would want Fleet as a friend and do just about anything to keep him. Apologizing quickly if your friend seems in the least irritated or acts suspicious of you. I just haven't been myself since all this happened how could I be so thoughtless.

Since we don't know exactly what transpired, making something up, or trying to analyze, the situation is like trying to solve a Rubik cube in the dark. I'll give it a try.

John didn't trust Fleet anymore and Fleet didn't trust John anymore.

The R's were moving away the White's were losing not only JBR but the whole family itself.

The Whites were only considered witnesses anyway because the police didn't think giving the kids cracked crab was important evidence of pedophilia grooming or the fact that Fleet was with John when the body was found. If it was a crucial key to the case or very important we would not know about it.

The whole family was witnesses, who knows what conversations went on between the kids at the party. What games did they play? I'd want to know about the adults in attendance too but I'd carefully dig out every memory I could from those kids.

If a intruder broke in while they were away they might have seen or heard something as they were away from the main crowd of adults.

My Bold

The White's broke off their friendship with the Ramseys so how could they keep the White's close to them? After the murder the White's wanted nothing to do with the R's. From the depositions that I have read I know that JR said something like that they were not angry with the White's and he had no idea why they weren't friends anymore as he hadn't talked to the White's, but still considered them friends. I don't believe that the White's feel the same way about the R's.

 

[txsvicki]

Post #11 on this thread shows an interview with Patsy where she thinks that someone was in the home while they were at the party. She says that they could have found flashlights, pads, pens, "our Christmas Cards". Was there ever any evidence or talk of Christmas cards? Just wondering why she mentioned that.

 

[CathyR]

I am not trying to argue whether the Ramseys were correct or true or whatever in their religious beliefs. Just want to say that. At least, it's not my intention.

What I am speaking to is their state of mind as to writing the ransom note, staging the crime scene, etc.

Obviously, I look at this as I do because I believe the evidence is clear: the Ramseys were the only ones in the home, they obstructed the investigation and continue to do so to this day, and the physical and circumstantial evidence overwhelmingly points to them as perpetrating the crimes against JonBenet Ramsey, on and before the night she was murdered.

If you don't believe they were involved in the murder, then obviously you don't believe their religion played any part in it. So no point in arguing there.

The issue which I address, believing what I do, is how their religion factored into it. I also agree that the Ramseys brought religion into this murder, like they brought an "intruder" into our lives: by going on TV and speaking of it, countless times; writing a book; etc.

The only reason to point to religion from the R's point of view (when writing the ransom note) is to incriminate and cause investigation of the religious fanatic type.



The RN would not be referring to anything they hold dear in their own religion, no it has to be the opposite, it can't point to themselves, what words would work here a small foreign faction maybe.


OK we have a foreign faction here a religious cult comes to mind as that is the closest thing we have in America to radical groups as far as we knew in 1996. Instead of looking at the Quran for any similarities to the number 118000, John uses a Bible?
When I think foreign faction and any religion that can be taken to extremes I think of a non Christian one.

To me the writer is pretty wacked and changes language styles and uses odd phases together. The style drifts almost like a personality change from threatening to condescending. I do see some personality components of a disturbed individual in the note. If the R's did construct it they may have tried to include examples of that. Could explain the need to be 3 pages long and contain TMI.

 

[SunnieRN]

The Ramseys distanced themselves from the Whites, at the insistence of the Whites. Remember the full page article that the Whites published in the paper?

There were too many mistakes made by police, too many clues not taken into consideration.

If you are in your car, driving in the business district. A police officer pulls you over, with lights and sirens. The LE officers surround your car, tell you that a shooting occured two blocks away and your car matches the description and the fibers on your winter gloves match fibers found on the body.

You are innocent and you know it! How would you PROVE your innocence? What if the person murdered is found to be related to you? What would you do to PROVE your innocence?

No, this isn't my car. These are not my gloves. Maybe my neighbor did it! Sheesh, I would think and hope I would say things like, "I don't need a lawyer, test my gloves and hands for gun powder" I had NO reason to shoot that person. Please look at any traffic cameras in the area to prove I was elsewhere. Yes, I will come down to the police station and answer any and all question!"

Of course this is a silly example, but how does innocence and how does guilt act? If the Ramseys were truly as 'religious; as they profess, did they have as many Christian decorations in their home as secular? Did they practice giving, in terms of helping Gods children in need? Did they outreach in their communities to spread Gods love and saving message? Dod they walk the walk, or just talk the talk?

There is a difference between being religious and in loving and accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord and savior. I am not trying to judge the Ramseys love of God, or love of religon, even though the two do often not equate. I am however wondering if their profession of forgiveness was perhaps internal, verbalized in an external fashion, to again, on another level, appear to be more religious and therefore to establish innocence.

If you look at churches, they are groups of people. There are every kind of people in church. Pedophiles, murderers, tax evaders, adulterers and holy believers. The difference is that some of them truly believe in God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit and some of them are there because they think it is the 'right' thing to do.

 

[DeeDee249]

I am sure the Rs considered themselves good Christians, though I don't agree that one of the ways to measure this is religious (as opposed to or in addition to) secular decorations, as some Christian faiths do not espouse the display of religious figures. Even the Crucifix differs between some Christian faiths- some portraying a dying Christ (on the cross) and some portraying the risen Christ (empty cross).

I would think they would have donated to the needy in the community, either through their church or community fund-raising etc, though not necessarily public witnessing. Neither makes them any less able to have committed this crime or covered it up.

 

[my_tee_mouse]

I am sure the Rs considered themselves good Christians, though I don't agree that one of the ways to measure this is religious (as opposed to or in addition to) secular decorations, as some Christian faiths do not espouse the display of religious figures. Even the Crucifix differs between some Christian faiths- some portraying a dying Christ (on the cross) and some portraying the risen Christ (empty cross).

I would think they would have donated to the needy in the community, either through their church or community fund-raising etc, though not necessarily public witnessing. Neither makes them any less able to have committed this crime or covered it up.

True. No one can measure someone's inner faith via outer trappings.

 

[otg]

Post #11 on this thread shows an interview with Patsy where she thinks that someone was in the home while they were at the party. She says that they could have found flashlights, pads, pens, "our Christmas Cards". Was there ever any evidence or talk of Christmas cards? Just wondering why she mentioned that.

I don’t know, but she may have been trying to bring in something else that had been pointed out about some “Christmas message(?)” that she had written. On it (if my memory serves me correctly) there was a line she wrote using the phrase “and hence”. Could she maybe have been trying to deflect association with that unusual phrase to some mysterious intruder who might have been trying to duplicate her writing style?

Who knows what might have been going through her mind at the time during the “interview”? Needless to say, she was under a great deal of stress, while at the same time trying to redirect any suspicion.
.

 

[joeskidbeck]

I don’t know, but she may have been trying to bring in something else that had been pointed out about some “Christmas message(?)” that she had written. On it (if my memory serves me correctly) there was a line she wrote using the phrase “and hence”. Could she maybe have been trying to deflect association with that unusual phrase to some mysterious intruder who might have been trying to duplicate her writing style?

Who knows what might have been going through her mind at the time during the “interview”? Needless to say, she was under a great deal of stress, while at the same time trying to redirect any suspicion.
.

I believe you nailed it, otg. She certainly used the phrase "and hence" in Christmas updates and oher writings. She knew there were words and phrases in the rn that would point to her even though she tried to disguise her handwriting and even misspelled a couple of words. She would have been better off to try and act like a poor, desperate criminal and then the rn may have sounded legit. But then again, Patsy had no idea how to come across as poor, but desperate should have been easy considering the circumstances.

 

[Bobbarita]

See,this is exactly what I don't like.Who knows how many psychos interpret all this religious stuff the way they like it and then act upon it.

PATSY: Our God does not work that way. I believe that our God sees things that we don't see and understands things that we do not understand. What man has meant for evil, He will use the good.

Imagine how an unstable person interprets THIS!!I can do whatever bad things I like,God will find something good in it!

I couldn't agree more, Madeleine. Religious crackpots, the whole lot of them!

 

[Bobbarita]

JR:This is not going to come now from clever detective work, it is going to come from the public.


-----

This is what I hate,between 10 lines of religious talk they drop one of these lines written by their lawyer.

Superb manipulators, cons, that's what they are. And they hide behind their "Christian Beliefs". What a bunch of BS!

 

[Bobbarita]

Very respectfully snipped.

Ah yes, Victory. Saved By The Cash. They were "above" us normal people, understood the Bible better you see. They are exonerated in the eyes of GOD (in their minds).

Yikes. That was bitter, wasn't it? That's not like me, especially when it comes to religious views. Perhaps I have been doing a bit too much reading and research.

No, you get it alright. It's a dangerous formula... One part narcissism, one part histrionic personaility, add a dash of grandiose delusions, the Bible, Jesus, and voila! Very scary IMO.

 

[Bobbarita]

The posters here are not the ones who brought religion into this mess. That would have been the Ramseys themselves. Anyone who goes on television and talks about their religious beliefs opens themselves up for discussion and opinion. My Christianity is between me and my Lord except for the testimony that I live every day of my life. The old saying that says "you may be the only Bible some folks will ever read" is very true and I try to keep this in mind in my daily walk. I am far from perfect and anyone who knows me also knows that. By God's word we are not to judge others but He does tell us to discern the spirit and not to just blindly believe what others say and do just because they say and do it in His name. This is why the Ramseys religious views come into this, not because we all want to judge them because of their religious views. Those of us on this board who are true Christians should be able to discern whether or not the Ramseys are being genuine when they talk of their Lord and Saviour. Those that profess to not believe in God are entitled to their opinion whether or not we agree with it, that's one of the gifts of our wonderful Constitution.

You ROCK!

 

[Bobbarita]

I believe God has the power to forgive anyone for anything so who knows where Patsy is now and where John will end up, however, in my mind the only way I can deal with it is if Patsy made it to Heaven she is sitting under a tree painting, she is not skipping down the streets holding JonBenet's hand and getting her dressed for another pagent, JonBenet is safe at the side of Jesus with all the other children that grown up humans let down in ways most of us can not imagine, never having to deal with them again. This is my new prayer, Lord please keep any person that harmed a child away from children in Heaven as we can't seem to do that on earth.
This case can have you sitting down crying at times but to throw God's name around in the middle of it like they did just burns me up. Beck was right, it's in your heart and your actions, you don't have to "remind" everybody verbally what kind of person you are every chance you get.

IMO Patsy did it. And if there is such a thing, I hope she is burning in Hell.

 

[madeleine]

maybe it's

Victory,
She Belongs To Christ?

 

[madeleine]

I don’t know, but she may have been trying to bring in something else that had been pointed out about some “Christmas message(?)” that she had written. On it (if my memory serves me correctly) there was a line she wrote using the phrase “and hence”. Could she maybe have been trying to deflect association with that unusual phrase to some mysterious intruder who might have been trying to duplicate her writing style?

Who knows what might have been going through her mind at the time during the “interview”? Needless to say, she was under a great deal of stress, while at the same time trying to redirect any suspicion.
.

Something doesn't sound right to me.If both parents were involved this means both of them knew the content of the ransom note cause one of them wrote it.So why did JR insist that morning after he found the body that it must be an INSIDE job?It contradicts what the RN says.Why would he do that if that's why they wrote a RN in the first place,to fool LE that it was a total stranger.

 

[Plenum7]

Madeleine,

I don't think the purpose of the RN was to convinced authorities it was a total stranger. As I've posted here in the past, I actually think the purpose of the RN (and much else) was to incriminate the housekeeper, LHP. That, in the first instance, was the Ramsey's plan. When that story didn't stick, they changed their story and started pointing at the Whites, at all their friends. The content of the note is interesting and I keep looking at it, but the important clue here is where the note was (supposedly) found. Patsy was *excpecting* a note from LHP. The RN is what she found instead. This is why JR said it must be an inside job. They were trying to incriminate the housekeeper. This is also why the body was placed in the wine cellar. And why the swiss army knife was nearby. And much else. The sum of money in the RN was designed to suggest an inside job too. The note was written to suggest an inside job. First they pointed at LHP, then at others. Only later did it become the intruder story.