NJ NJ - Margaret Fox, 14, Burlington, 24 June 1974

[meggilyweggily]

I would like to see the ad Margaret placed, and wonder why this man was in that particular section (was he looking for a babysitter or a job maybe???)

If he wanted a teenager to play with (and all indications are this was a planned thing), it would make sense for him to be looking at babysitting ads. People think of the babysitter as a clean-cut, all-American suburban girl -- Margaret certainly fit that description -- and many predators specifically target those types of people.

 

[Hollow]

If he wanted a teenager to play with (and all indications are this was a planned thing), it would make sense for him to be looking at babysitting ads. People think of the babysitter as a clean-cut, all-American suburban girl -- Margaret certainly fit that description -- and many predators specifically target those types of people.

I was thinking the same thing, but being a relatively normal person I hate to even contemplate someone doing this. So what, then he arranged it and then backed out or did something happen to make him change his plans?

 

[shadowangel]

As stated previoulsy, I'm sure something came up to interfere with his plans. Maybe the family were going to be away for a few days...?
I'm positive he was perusing the ads, fishing for a victim. And, unfortunately, it worked. He may have been known in the community, for good or bad, or in a high-profile position, so shopping the malls and playgrounds may not have been an option for him.

 

[docwho3]

I wonder if he told her to look for a red car but actually was in a car of a different color and so he waited for someone who was obviously looking for a car that was not there to be seen. Witnesses in the area, if there were any, later would be asked about a nonexistent red car.

 

[shadowangel]

I wonder if he told her to look for a red car but actually was in a car of a different color and so he waited for someone who was obviously looking for a car that was not there to be seen. Witnesses in the area, if there were any, later would be asked about a nonexistent red car.

Or, he was so close to the location he didn't need a car. Even a careful canvass of the area might not reveal anything. And witnesses? Ever hear of Kitty Genovese?

 

[Mullins]

That sounds plausible. Probably near or at that phone booth that he called her from.

No what about Kitty?

Or, he was so close to the location he didn't need a car. Even a careful canvass of the area might not reveal anything. And witnesses? Ever hear of Kitty Genovese?

 

[shadowangel]

That sounds plausible. Probably near or at that phone booth that he called her from.

No what about Kitty?

I was making a point about witnesses....Catherine "Kitty" Genovese, a very pretty young lady who, in 1964, was raped and killed on a NYC street while 38 "witnesses" in the surrounding apartments did nothing. The attack went on and on, the attacker stabbing her, leaving, returning, raping her, stabbing her again...

 

[docwho3]

By "witnesses", I meant someone who may have noticed a man walking with or talking with the girl. I doubt there was any snatch & grab needed since she was there to meet the guy for a babysitting job. Just off the top of my head, I can see a few possibilities: If he lived nearby and chose not to use a car then he risked being seen walking her somewhere. Somehow I think that would have been an unacceptable risk for him. Unless evidence comes to light to show that risk was mitigated in some way I lean towards him using a car or van or even a pickup truck. If no stolen cars were reported about the same time from that area then he may have either had his own vehicle or he might have borrowed one. He would want to get out of the area without her being seen riding with him if possible so maybe he would use a van. If he had groceries in the front seat and asked her to sit in back and she got in a van willingly in the back part of it he might have been able to drive off with her without even having to subdue her until he was out of town or at least out of sight of the public.

Meanwhile people are later being asked if they saw a man walking with a girl or if they saw a girl drive off with someone in a red car or in any kind of car and of course the answer is probably "no" unless they happened to look at that tiny few seconds slice of time when she got into the back of the van.

 

[shadowangel]

We here tend to think that other people would react to these situations as we would...I'm sure all of us would have license plate #s, descriptions, the works. In fact, most of us would chase the sumb**ch down ourselves! But, how many times in these threads have we asked, how could anyone not have seen anything? I was pointing out that sometimes people see no more than they wish too, and that is sad, because many of our children pay the price.

 

[docwho3]

We here tend to think that other people would react to these situations as we would...I'm sure all of us would have license plate #s, descriptions, the works. In fact, most of us would chase the sumb**ch down ourselves! But, how many times in these threads have we asked, how could anyone not have seen anything? I was pointing out that sometimes people see no more than they wish too, and that is sad, because many of our children pay the price.

I got the point. I just felt that in this case there might not have been anything to notice even if everyone present wanted to do the right thing.

Having said that, I understand how angry people can feel when they hear of cases where witnesses could have done more but didn't.

 

[Hollow]

Do y'all think this guy probably lived in the Mount Holly/Lumberton region?? He gave that phony phone number from a grocery in Lumberton. I'm surprised they never found her body, well I'm assuming she's not with us any more.

 

[shadowangel]

I'm sure he was local. It just has that feel---Reading his local paper, seeing the ad, phoning locally.

 

[shadowangel]

I got the point. I just felt that in this case there might not have been anything to notice even if everyone present wanted to do the right thing.

Having said that, I understand how angry people can feel when they hear of cases where witnesses could have done more but didn't.

Doc---I wasn't disparaging your points, of course. I think there is always something to be seen if people just bother to look. In this day and age, we must all be vigilant, for the sake of the young.

 

[docwho3]

While I am sort of thinking out loud:
Another thing stands out to me which I noticed sort of happening elsewhere in a way. He hesitated more than once (if I correctly remember the case details) in scheduling and rescheduling a meet. When a news show recently did an episode on predator pedophiles they set up a sting in a home they rented or borrowed and they had the bad guys show up there. Some of the guys were cagey about setting up a meet and when they got there they walked past the home a few times before entering. This sounds like the same sort of behavior I read about in this case. This sounds like an experienced pedophile who has set up successful meets of some sort with youngsters before and who would do so again soon.

This was a fairly bold plan, and makes me think this wasn't the first time he had done something wrong and got by with it. I think he was feeling a touch of invincibility, but only a touch. He still planned things carefully, drawing her out to really want this job with the hesitations in meetings, testing her willingness to meet and probably making sure no one else came checking the out payphone before finally agreeing to a meet time and place. He didn't feel invincible enough to come and pick her up from her house though. He didn't feel like grabbing someone kicking and screaming from a playground or park. Maybe not a full blown stalking BTK nor a mature Jet duncan type but someone who had done wrong before and had gotten away with it.

Just some toughts.

 

[shadowangel]

I agree with you for the greater part, and I'm sure the local authorities spoke to this man at some point. After his success here, he may have moved on to even bolder plans. Consider the Tape Recorder Man in the Lyon sisters' disappearance...That was bold.

 

[Yaya]

I wonder if he told her to look for a red car but actually was in a car of a different color and so he waited for someone who was obviously looking for a car that was not there to be seen. Witnesses in the area, if there were any, later would be asked about a nonexistent red car.

I was thinking along these same lines. I don't think he would have given truthful information knowing she would more than likely give the same info to her parents.

I can't understand what the parents were thinking to let a 14 year old girl go to baby sit for a total stranger without any references or ever meeting the family. This is so disturbing to me. My red light would have been going off from the beginning if my daughter told me a man was making all the arrangements for her to come baby sit. "Maybe this type of thinking is politically incorrect or old fashioned but I have never been accused of going along with the crowd."

 

[Richard]

Philadelphia Daily News...August 7th, 2001 ...

In the weeks surrounding her disappearance, police fielded complaints from residents about strangers attempts to lure their daughters to phony baby-sitting jobs. There also was speculation that her disappearance was one in a string of abduction/murders in Delaware County, Wilmington, Del., and South Jersey.

A Harrisburg convict confessed to her kidnapping and murder, but police determined the confession had been a hoax.

What were the other attempts like? Who were the others who were abducted and murdered? Any specifics on the convict?

 

[shadowangel]

What were the other attempts like? Who were the others who were abducted and murdered? Any specifics on the convict?

Charles Clobridge, 53, was sentenced to two-to-three years in prison in May of '76 for giving false information to police. He told police he had kidnapped Fox and threw her body off a cliff in NY's Catskill Mountains. Police and the FBI conducted a massive search before learning that Clobridge was in a NJ hospital at the time of Fox's disappearance.

 

[shadowangel]

[QUOTE=Hollow]I would like to see the ad Margaret placed, and wonder why this man was in that particular section (was he looking for a babysitter or a job maybe???) I wonder what paper it was placed in and where that paper was available. I also wonder if he indeed had a red VW and if they were checked for possible lead. Does anyone know how large of an area Mount Holly is and how far it was in relation to Burlington???[/QUOTE]
The ad was placed in the Burlington County Times. I do not know if their archives are available.

 

[Richard]

There was a serial killer named Harvey Carignan whose nickname before capture was "The Want Ad Killer". He was very active at exactly the time frame in which Margaret disappeared. Carignan was known to have killed women and girls in Seattle, WA and British Colombia in 1972 and 73. He left Seattle by late May or early June and by 28 June 1973, he was in Minneapolis, MN where he attacked a woman. He continued abducting, raping, and killing girls and young women in Minnesota and in Denver, CO through 1974. He was finally captured and in February 1975, he was put on trial in Minnesota, where he was convicted of several counts of murder and given in excess of one hundred years imprisonment all to run concurrently. He was eligible for parole beginning in 1993.

I do not know where Carignan's travels took him in 1974, but he was certainly active and pursuing young girls like Margaret, often using want-ads to attract potential victims.

Carignan was a veteran of the US Army. In 1950, while serving in Alaska, he murdered Mrs. Laura Showalter. He was tried and convicted and sentenced to hang. Due to procedural irregularities in taking down his confession, his sentence was overturned and he was given a 15 year prison sentence on the single charge of rape which was substituted. He was paroled after nine years.

One wonders what he was doing between 1959 and 1972? And was he in New Jersey in June 1974?