Non's how can you explain this away?

[Compassionate Reader]

Also, it is important to remember that there is much more than the hairs (one probably TH's and one probably DJ's) that make TH a viable suspect. In fact, IMO, there is much more circumstantial evidence against TH than against Damien, Jason and Jessie. So, what really needs to happen is a thorough investigation of TH. However, the wmpd and the State of Arkansas don't seem to want to do that.

LE officials are happy with the Alford pleas, no matter how weak. That's where things now stand. The State of Arkansas is content with the outcome of the hearing on 8/19/2011 and Damien, Jason and Jessie want their names cleared.

The only people willing to work toward exoneration are the three freed men and their defense teams. The State is unconcerned and/or unwilling to reopen the case. IMO, that begs the question why? If the State's case is so strong, what do they fear? IMO, this case won't just go away unless TH is thoroughly investigated.

 

[Aura]

LE officials are happy with the Alford pleas, no matter how weak. That's where things now stand. The State of Arkansas is content with the outcome of the hearing

And this is what pisses me off. How in the hell can they be happy that they dont know who killed these kids. I know some officials really believe they had the right ones, well then why the hell did you release them. And if they werent the right ones, why the hell arent you working to find the right one. I agree, Terry does need to be looked at, fairly. But to be honest, i think the state of Arkansas has given up. I think the celebrity crap was crap, BUT... if Damien, Jason, and Jessie really didnt do this, Then Im glad it got 3 innocent people out of prison. So now what happens to all the other prisoners who are really innocent of their crimes.

Heres my problem.. Im a Gemini. I see both sides of the story. I see why people are thinking Terry Hobbs did this, and I see how the D, J, and J didnt do this, I se ehow they couldve done it, and how Terry Hobbs could just be accused. i cant pick a side 100%. Things Damien has done are very weird and should be looked at, and things Terry and even JMB have done are very weird and should be looked at. Im trying to pick a side, but there are too many questions on both sides. I dont want to be the person who got out 3 guys who may or may not have done this. And I dont want to be the person who accuses someone who didnt do this. This is such a horrible crime. I think the WMPD did a horrible job that nite, and further down the road. I hate this case, but i wonder, in 100 years will people still be arguing over this?? My bet is Yes.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

And this is what pisses me off. How in the hell can they be happy that they dont know who killed these kids. I know some officials really believe they had the right ones, well then why the hell did you release them. And if they werent the right ones, why the hell arent you working to find the right one. I agree, Terry does need to be looked at, fairly. But to be honest, i think the state of Arkansas has given up. I think the celebrity crap was crap, BUT... if Damien, Jason, and Jessie really didnt do this, Then Im glad it got 3 innocent people out of prison. So now what happens to all the other prisoners who are really innocent of their crimes.

Heres my problem.. Im a Gemini. I see both sides of the story. I see why people are thinking Terry Hobbs did this, and I see how the D, J, and J didnt do this, I se ehow they couldve done it, and how Terry Hobbs could just be accused. i cant pick a side 100%. Things Damien has done are very weird and should be looked at, and things Terry and even JMB have done are very weird and should be looked at. Im trying to pick a side, but there are too many questions on both sides. I dont want to be the person who got out 3 guys who may or may not have done this. And I dont want to be the person who accuses someone who didnt do this. This is such a horrible crime. I think the WMPD did a horrible job that nite, and further down the road. I hate this case, but i wonder, in 100 years will people still be arguing over this?? My bet is Yes.

I agree that it is unconscionable to believe that the State of Arkansas would release three men who they believe are murderers. I believe that at least some of LE officials in Arkansas are convinced that Damien, Jason and Jessie are innocent of the murders or they wouldn't be walking free today. Personally, after studying this case since 1996, I'm convinced of the innocence of Damien, Jason and Jessie simply because I haven't seen any evidence that convinces me beyond a reasonable doubt that they are guilty.

I'm also convinced that the circumstantial evidence pointing to TH is stronger than any evidence that was made public against D, J and J. Although I don't know for a certainty that TH is guilty, I do know that he has never been thoroughly investigated (as JMB has), and he needs to be. The adamant refusal of the wmpd to even consider him as a suspect is highly suspicious IMO.

Unfortunately, I also agree with your assessment about the state of the case 100 years from now. Even if TH is investigated, tried and convicted, I imagine that some people will continue to proclaim his innocence. This will be like the JonBenet case. I don't think that, short of a valid confession, everyone will ever be happy with the resolution of this case.

 

[primitivefuture]

I agree that it is unconscionable to believe that the State of Arkansas would release three men who they believe are murderers. I believe that at least some of LE officials in Arkansas are convinced that Damien, Jason and Jessie are innocent of the murders or they wouldn't be walking free today.

I agree! I interpreted judge Laser's statement during the Alford plea hearing as such.


Judge Laser said: "I believe this ruling will give rise to discussions for a long time to come. I don't think it will make the pain go away for the families of the victims. I don't think it will make the pain go away for the families of defendants. It won't take away a minute of the time these men have served in prison. This is a tragedy on all sides."

http://m.arktimes.com/arkansas/blog...ers&day=19&id=ArkansasBlog&month=08&year=2011





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[ScarlettScarpetta]

I agree that it is unconscionable to believe that the State of Arkansas would release three men who they believe are murderers. I believe that at least some of LE officials in Arkansas are convinced that Damien, Jason and Jessie are innocent of the murders or they wouldn't be walking free today. Personally, after studying this case since 1996, I'm convinced of the innocence of Damien, Jason and Jessie simply because I haven't seen any evidence that convinces me beyond a reasonable doubt that they are guilty.

I'm also convinced that the circumstantial evidence pointing to TH is stronger than any evidence that was made public against D, J and J. Although I don't know for a certainty that TH is guilty, I do know that he has never been thoroughly investigated (as JMB has), and he needs to be. The adamant refusal of the wmpd to even consider him as a suspect is highly suspicious IMO.

Unfortunately, I also agree with your assessment about the state of the case 100 years from now. Even if TH is investigated, tried and convicted, I imagine that some people will continue to proclaim his innocence. This will be like the JonBenet case. I don't think that, short of a valid confession, everyone will ever be happy with the resolution of this case.

I agree..

There is no way they would have offered or participated in this plea if they believed any of these three were really guilty. This was not just a murder, it was a heinous murder of 3 little boys.
IMO, they know they did not do it. And I think they knew it even back then.

 

[primitivefuture]

I still find it amazing that a single hair can survive the journey of bike riding skateboarding and playing in the bush for hours...

Agreed. I'm familiar with the concept of the transfer of hairs, and it isn't totally far fetched for me to believe that a person's hair could end up in the laces of another person's shoe. What I do find very hard to believe is that a hair could be transferred to another person's shoe laces and remain there after the shoe lace has been removed from that person's shoe. It's not as if shoe laces just slide right out of a shoe. They have to be pulled this way and that to be removed from each individual eyelet. And during the course of this crime, I imagine the shoelace was yanked around rather hastily. Anyway, that's why the transfer theory has always struck me as improbable, in my opinion.


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[kyleb]

What I do find very hard to believe is that a hair could be transferred to another person's shoe laces and remain there after the shoe lace has been removed from that person's shoe.

Do you believe there was only one hair recovered from the shoelaces?

 

[Compassionate Reader]

There were quite a few hairs recovered from the shoelaces, IIRC. Most of those hairs belonged to the victims. Some were animal hairs. Some are still unidentified. One is a 97.5% match to the mtDNA of Terry Wayne Hobbs. None of the hairs can be tied to Damien, Jason or Jessie.

 

[primitivefuture]

There were quite a few hairs recovered from the shoelaces, IIRC. Most of those hairs belonged to the victims. Some were animal hairs. Some are still unidentified. One is a 97.5% match to the mtDNA of Terry Wayne Hobbs. None of the hairs can be tied to Damien, Jason or Jessie.

There were 2 slides containing 3 hairs taken from the Moore ligature, If i recall. One slide containing an auburn hair and an auburn beard hair and another slide containing a different human hair, from what i remember. Were their animal hairs in that ligature as well? It's late and I'm having a hard time locating the document I'm looking for.


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[reedus23]

I agree..

There is no way they would have offered or participated in this plea if they believed any of these three were really guilty. This was not just a murder, it was a heinous murder of 3 little boys.
IMO, they know they did not do it. And I think they knew it even back then.

At the end of the day, we can debate evidence the evidence against the WM3 until we are blue in the face but rest assured, not a single sole on the state's side of the case would have ever voluntarily gone along with these pleas if they thought for one second that the WM3 were guilty of these crimes.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

There were 2 slides containing 3 hairs taken from the Moore ligature, If i recall. One slide containing an auburn hair and an auburn beard hair and another slide containing a different human hair, from what i remember. Were their animal hairs in that ligature as well? It's late and I'm having a hard time locating the document I'm looking for.


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IIRC, the animal hairs were found with the bodies, not necessarily in the ligatures. Again, to the best of my memory, the actual ligature hairs were as you described them. Of course, the important part is that for one of the hairs, Terry Hobbs cannot be ruled out as the donor. However, all three of the wrongfully convicted can be ruled out as donors for any of the hairs for which an mtDNA sample could be obtained. IIRC, there is one hair or hair fragment for which all that can be determined is that it came from a male. Not much, is it?

 

[primitivefuture]

IIRC, the animal hairs were found with the bodies, not necessarily in the ligatures. Again, to the best of my memory, the actual ligature hairs were as you described them. Of course, the important part is that for one of the hairs, Terry Hobbs cannot be ruled out as the donor. However, all three of the wrongfully convicted can be ruled out as donors for any of the hairs for which an mtDNA sample could be obtained. IIRC, there is one hair or hair fragment for which all that can be determined is that it came from a male. Not much, is it?

Is the hair sample you referred to at the end of your post the other hair from the ligature on Moore or another source? I remember reading about the ligature hairs on another forum a while back. Somebody claimed that aside from one of the ligature hairs being linked to Hobbs, that the other ligature hair belonged to Michael. i was having a hard time confirming that while sorting through evidence on Callahan.

Also, can you tell me if all the hair/dna evidence was tested as to whether any of it belonged to the victims? I'm having a hard time remembering. Oh, and was the evidence tested to rule out investigators(or anyone else who came into contact with the scene and/or evidence for that matter)? I was wondering that earlier, while watching you guys debate the negroid hair found on the sheet.


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[Compassionate Reader]

Is the hair sample you referred to at the end of your post the other hair from the ligature on Moore or another source? I remember reading about the ligature hairs on another forum a while back. Somebody claimed that aside from one of the ligature hairs being linked to Hobbs, that the other ligature hair belonged to Michael. i was having a hard time confirming that while sorting through evidence on Callahan.

Also, can you tell me if all the hair/dna evidence was tested as to whether any of it belonged to the victims? I'm having a hard time remembering. Oh, and was the evidence tested to rule out investigators(or anyone else who came into contact with the scene and/or evidence for that matter)? I was wondering that earlier, while watching you guys debate the negroid hair found on the sheet.


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The problem is that, for much of what you ask (because of the sloppy police work) we simply don't know! All, IMO, that's certain at this point is that at least one of the full hairs (sans root) found in the ligature that bound Michael Moore is a 97.5% mtDNA match to Terry Hobbs, and this hair was purported to be a beard hair, auburn in color. Supposedly all biological evidence was tested against the victims' DNA, and a large majority of the hairs found were, in fact, from the victims. Again, as to ruling out the investigators, I've never read anything to indicate that the investigators' DNA was collected and/or tested. The hair that is a 97.5% mtDNA match to Terry Hobbs is, IMO, the most interesting one of the bunch. Also interesting is that, even though two of the three wrongfully convicted men had long hair at the time, none of the hairs found can be positively identified as belonging to any of the three. Again IMO, that is very interesting indeed!

 

[Cappuccino]

It was a 98.5% match to Terry Hobbs.

Also, can you tell me if all the hair/dna evidence was tested as to whether any of it belonged to the victims?

All of the biological material tested was compared to the victims' DNA and the wm3's DNA. Most of it was consistent with the victims, none of it was consistent with the wm3's.

 

[Compassionate Reader]

It was a 98.5% match to Terry Hobbs.

I've seen both figures. I believe some place on jivepuppi they use the 97.5% figure. In any case, I go with the more conservative figure as it is, IMO, more than adequate to indicate the necessity of a proper investigation into Terry Hobbs!

 

[Cappuccino]

It is indeed.

I've also seen people describe the Hobbs hair in different ways, but I tend to go with Thomas Fedor's description - that the mtDNA was consistent with 1.5% of the population, from which Terry Hobbs cannot be excluded.

 

[UdbCrzy2]

The problem is that, for much of what you ask (because of the sloppy police work) we simply don't know! All, IMO, that's certain at this point is that at least one of the full hairs (sans root) found in the ligature that bound Michael Moore is a 97.5% mtDNA match to Terry Hobbs, and this hair was purported to be a beard hair, auburn in color. Supposedly all biological evidence was tested against the victims' DNA, and a large majority of the hairs found were, in fact, from the victims. Again, as to ruling out the investigators, I've never read anything to indicate that the investigators' DNA was collected and/or tested. The hair that is a 97.5% mtDNA match to Terry Hobbs is, IMO, the most interesting one of the bunch. Also interesting is that, even though two of the three wrongfully convicted men had long hair at the time, none of the hairs found can be positively identified as belonging to any of the three. Again IMO, that is very interesting indeed!

Have you ever looked at this before, it's quite good. 1.5% of the population


http://wm3truth.com/new-alternative-suspect-terry-hobbs/

 

[primitivefuture]

I've seen both figures. I believe some place on jivepuppi they use the 97.5% figure. In any case, I go with the more conservative figure as it is, IMO, more than adequate to indicate the necessity of a proper investigation into Terry Hobbs!

Have you ever looked at this before, it's quite good. 1.5% of the population


http://wm3truth.com/new-alternative-suspect-terry-hobbs/

Since people with red hair make up between 1-2% of the population, and the red hair that is a 97.5% match to Hobbs' mtDNA, am I incorrect to assume that it is impossible for this hair to have come from anybody within 1.5% of the population? Has the fact that the hair is red already been factored into that calculation?


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[kyleb]

Is the hair in fact red? I've seen claims of such, but never anything in the documentation to corroborate them. Regardless, the color of a particular hair doesn't rule out the possibility that it grew out of someone whose hairs are typically a very different color. So even if the hair is actually brown or blonde, it still may well be Terry Hobbs'. It could also be his brother's, his mother's or anyone else who share the same maternal linage as him, which Thomas Fedor estimated at 1.5% of the population. In the same regards, any of the hairs consistent with mDNA of any of the boys could in fact be hairs from their respective siblings, mothers, or millions of other people who share their same respective mDNA profiles.

Also the percentage claims regarding how close of a match the hair is to Hobbs' mDNA are clearly based on misunderstanding, as every last human's mDNA profile is a far closer match to each other than the percentages claimed here. In fact all of our mDNA profiles are so close to each other that the first mDNA profile ever sequenced is used as a reference by which other profiles are reported as difference from them within two regions which do show varation. It's called revised Cambridge Reference Sequence (rCRS), and as can be seen in the link just a long list of numbered positions with letter values for each. In contrast, you can see many examples of how the mDNA for the hairs in evidence is reported throughout the 5/23/08 Bode report which focus on the consistency between the one of the hairs from the ligatures and a hair sample from Terry Hobbs. Here's the results for those two particular hairs:

As can be seen, both share the same differences from rCRS, aside from a variation at potion 16093 on the Hobbs sample, which isn't enough variation to exclude Terry Hobbs as the source of that hair. Anyway, I'd planned to go on regarding the hair evidence and DNA testing, but a friend has dropped by so I'm cutting it short for now. There's many facts to consider in the one Bode report I linked alone though, and I hope some of you might take an interest reviewing the documentation and comment regarding what you've found.

 

[reedus23]

I take it to mean that Hobbs cannot be excluded as the source of that hair whereas the WM3 and nearly all of the rest of the population can be excluded.