Norway Norway - Isdalen, WhtFem 503UFNOR, multiple aliases, multilingual, Nov'70

[Susikatze]

Hooker/escort, sex trade whatever can logically be pretty much ruled out based on her stays at specific strict religious hotels. I believe she was a devout Catholic of Roma descent, and the religious icon found in her suitcase would point to that unless it was planted as a red herring, and that's another wild rabbit hole to discuss. She also moved furniture outside her rooms which plausibly was a way to signal whether she was in her room or not. Remember in 1970 there were only telephone land lines, and hotel room phones if any would be directly connected to the front desk main line. She already had a mistrust of hotel staff by purposely changing her aliases. Someone trying not to be tracked would avoid phone communication, but I will admit it is also a great way to attract unwanted attention to move room furniture out of the room too so who knows.

Wait, religious hotels? I must have missed that.

 

[djtopcat]

Wait, religious hotels? I must have missed that.

Yes it's in the Death in Ice Valley podcast. She specifically stayed in Christian/Catholic hotels with no drinking, and other code of contact rules for guests etc. Marit Higraff the NRK journalist responsible for bringing the Isdal Woman case back to global attention stated it in one of the 12 podcasts. She had the best access to not only the original Bergen police report, but also other people with good knowledge on the case from the beginning. Something us amateurs in cyberspace do not. I can't even find a full public copy of the police report in Norwegian, let alone an English translation which should have been transcribed years ago.

 

[Cupofcare]

Revising on this I think she was probably a suicide. It's highly unlikely another person would've forced her to drink her own sleeping pills. Her suitcase was at the train station...which reminds me very much of Somerton man..it seems they leave their stuff at a train station because, for a suicide, they know they won't need luggage anymore. She disfigured her face in the fire for the same reason she cut off clothing tags, scraped her name off her medicine containers etc. Even after death, she never wanted her identity known. Which is also a little understandable, sometimes you just don't want anyone to recognize you, maybe u don't want your family to grieve or to see how u turned out in life. Due to the Italian clothes in her suitcase and the Italian photographer she had lunch with , I would still guess she was associated with the check scam people, who seemingly were based in Italy.

 

[djtopcat]

Revising on this I think she was probably a suicide. It's highly unlikely another person would've forced her to drink her own sleeping pills. Her suitcase was at the train station...which reminds me very much of Somerton man..it seems they leave their stuff at a train station because, for a suicide, they know they won't need luggage anymore. She disfigured her face in the fire for the same reason she cut off clothing tags, scraped her name off her medicine containers etc. Even after death, she never wanted her identity known. Which is also a little understandable, sometimes you just don't want anyone to recognize you, maybe u don't want your family to grieve or to see how u turned out in life. Due to the Italian clothes in her suitcase and the Italian photographer she had lunch with , I would still guess she was associated with the check scam people, who seemingly were based in Italy.

 

[djtopcat]

Not suicide, "suicided" yes. One thing that you may have missed in the DIIV podcast is the Norwegian crime writer from the time who said she also had a mouthful of the pink Fenemal pills in her mouth when they found her. The pink version were sold in the UK, and possibly other countries such as Israel, Jordan, and Lebanon. That more points to them being forced down her throat. Also the pill bottle was never found because the killer/s took it along with the fuel used to light her up. I very much agree with many of the interviewed witnesses that this had something to do with Israel, and that's where the cover up began. Who's side? We'll likely never know. One thing I do know is that the CIA almost certainly has a file on her from the time due to speculation she was passing secrets to the GDR/KGB from observing the 1970 Norwegian Penguin missile tests. This is why they sent Ornulf Tofte "old former Norway intelligence dude in podcast with the ludicrous giant can of hair spray theory" to Bergen to investigate. Oslo authorities sent him and a murder squad colleague to look into the mysterious death. More disturbing is that witnessed evidence in the secret police file has gone missing. specifically an envelope with a tape.

 

[gabagool]

hi, im new here but ive been hyper fixated on this case for years. ive come to believe that she was somehow connected to yugoslavia. when they analyzed the isotope levels two hotspots were in what is now croatia. also backing the ashkenazi theory, those two areas had large jewish communities pre ww2. i think they focused on germany a bit to much. also one of the sales people who saw her said she spoke an unknown language, possibly slavic. together with all that, the yugoslav secret service was largely under the radar of east and west civilians. since the kgb said it wasnt like them to have so many passports, and it probably wasn't the cia... why not look at the inbetweens?
also three things i find strange about her identities: she had a variation of st. hildegard and walbruge as her adress (symbolic?), all of the places of birth were in west europe except ljubljana, and the birthdates mostly had the number 11.
i might be overthinking the spy angle and im not really familiar with the workings of this forum so im sorry for spamming

 

[Susikatze]

hi, im new here but ive been hyper fixated on this case for years. ive come to believe that she was somehow connected to yugoslavia. when they analyzed the isotope levels two hotspots were in what is now croatia. also backing the ashkenazi theory, those two areas had large jewish communities pre ww2. i think they focused on germany a bit to much. also one of the sales people who saw her said she spoke an unknown language, possibly slavic. together with all that, the yugoslav secret service was largely under the radar of east and west civilians. since the kgb said it wasnt like them to have so many passports, and it probably wasn't the cia... why not look at the inbetweens?
also three things i find strange about her identities: she had a variation of st. hildegard and walbruge as her adress (symbolic?), all of the places of birth were in west europe except ljubljana, and the birthdates mostly had the number 11.
i might be overthinking the spy angle and im not really familiar with the workings of this forum so im sorry for spamming

She is not of Jewish descent, I think we can throw the "Israeli spy" theory out for good.

 

[gabagool]

She is not of Jewish descent, I think we can throw the "Israeli spy" theory out for good.

they said they couldn't know for sure tho, but i dont think it was mossad either way.

 

[gabagool]

hi, im new here but ive been hyper fixated on this case for years. ive come to believe that she was somehow connected to yugoslavia. when they analyzed the isotope levels two hotspots were in what is now croatia. also backing the ashkenazi theory, those two areas had large jewish communities pre ww2. i think they focused on germany a bit to much. also one of the sales people who saw her said she spoke an unknown language, possibly slavic. together with all that, the yugoslav secret service was largely under the radar of east and west civilians. since the kgb said it wasnt like them to have so many passports, and it probably wasn't the cia... why not look at the inbetweens?
also three things i find strange about her identities: she had a variation of st. hildegard and walbruge as her adress (symbolic?), all of the places of birth were in west europe except ljubljana, and the birthdates mostly had the number 11.
i might be overthinking the spy angle and im not really familiar with the workings of this forum so im sorry for spamming

also fun maybe connection, berge istra and berge vanga. berge istra was the biggest ship at the time and it links norway and yugoslavia. and its really weird

 

[Susikatze]

they said they couldn't know for sure tho, but i dont think it was mossad either way.

At least Ashkenazi Jewish genetic signatures (but now also Mizrahi and Sephardi) are so distinctive and characteristic that they are identified pretty right away.

 

[Susikatze]

Somehow if it was possible to id her via genetic genealogy (which Europe does not do), i have the feeling this would boil down to a Somerton Man story.
He was believed to be a spy or criminal. He was believed to be American/foreign. He was believed to have poisoned himself. Turned out he was a local unemployed guy with some mental illness and a gambling addiction who was estranged from his wife and family who passed from a heart attack on the beach and had handed down clothing from a relative. All stories, all sightings, the Jestyn love connection, the "secret codes" were red herrings.

My feeling is that this story would be similar.

 

[fred&edna]

Somehow if it was possible to id her via genetic genealogy (which Europe does not do), i have the feeling this would boil down to a Somerton Man story.
He was believed to be a spy or criminal. He was believed to be American/foreign. He was believed to have poisoned himself. Turned out he was a local unemployed guy with some mental illness and a gambling addiction who was estranged from his wife and family who passed from a heart attack on the beach and had handed down clothing from a relative. All stories, all sightings, the Jestyn love connection, the "secret codes" were red herrings.

My feeling is that this story would be similar.

This is very possible. I don't think she was a spy, at all. However, I can't completely dismiss the idea there was more to her life/death... something questionable, if not nefarious.

jmo

ETA: Who were the check scam people in Italy mentioned up thread? Did that info come from the BBC podcast "DIIV"? And, how many hotels in these cities were strict with drinking, etc. (religious) back then? And, were they marketed as as such, and were they the hotels of choice by most visiting the areas?

 

[Susikatze]

This is very possible. I don't think she was a spy, at all. However, I can't completely dismiss the idea there was more to her life/death... something questionable, if not nefarious.

jmo

My feeling is that her story would be similar to Somerton Man. Estranged from family, a transient lifestyle, probably also mental illness and addiction. There are several documented cases of similar super bizarre suicides that were no foul play, including identical cases where someone swallowed a boatload of sleeping pills and to make sure, also set themselves on fire while waiting for the pills to set in.

But we love mysteries. We thought Beth Doe was Czech or Croatian. She was a young Puerto Rican woman from New Jersey, likely murdered by her fiance.

We thought the Sumter Does were a French Canadian doctors son and his girlfriend or Argentinian refugees and there were multiple sightings and witness reports seemingly confirming this. Turns out they were two young divorcees from the USA, both estranged from family. He was a car mechanic running away from two child support cases by an ex wife and an ex affair and she was a former beauty queen and country singer who after a divorce started traveling. Nothing glamorous.

We thought Mostly Harmless was a movie star and oh so handsome. He was a computer guy from Louisiana working for some hardware store who battled severe mental illness all his life and who was involved in DV towards his girlfriend. He was estranged from family and friends and spiraled into his illness deeper and deeper while hiking.

Jmoo but i believe the story of Isdalen woman would be similar

 

[fred&edna]

My feeling is that her story would be similar to Somerton Man. Estranged from family, a transient lifestyle, probably also mental illness and addiction. There are several documented cases of similar super bizarre suicides that were no foul play, including identical cases where someone swallowed a boatload of sleeping pills and to make sure, also set themselves on fire while waiting for the pills to set in.

But we love mysteries. We thought Beth Doe was Czech or Croatian. She was a young Puerto Rican woman from New Jersey, likely murdered by her fiance.

We thought the Sumter Does were a French Canadian doctors son and his girlfriend or Argentinian refugees and there were multiple sightings and witness reports seemingly confirming this. Turns out they were two young divorcees from the USA, both estranged from family. He was a car mechanic running away from two child support cases by an ex wife and an ex affair and she was a former beauty queen and country singer who after a divorce started traveling. Nothing glamorous.

We thought Mostly Harmless was a movie star and oh so handsome. He was a computer guy from Louisiana working for some hardware store who battled severe mental illness all his life and who was involved in DV towards his girlfriend. He was estranged from family and friends and spiraled into his illness deeper and deeper while hiking.

Jmoo but i believe the story of Isdalen woman would be similar

I understood what you meant in your original post regarding the Somerton Man. That's why I agreed with you by saying, "it was very possible".

Yes, 'most everyone who reads here enjoys a mystery and yes, imaginations can take over. But, until we have a complete picture... all we have are clues on which to base our opinions and theories. Maybe all the clues in this case are red herrings? But, until she's identified... rational theories are all fair game. jmo.

 

[Susikatze]

I understood what you meant in your original post regarding the Somerton Man. That's why I agreed with you by saying, "it was very possible".

Yes, 'most everyone who reads here enjoys a mystery and yes, imaginations can take over. But, until we have a complete picture... all we have are clues on which to base our opinions and theories. Maybe all the clues in this case are red herrings? But, until she's identified... rational theories are all fair game. jmo.

True and yes, you are right. It is a shame that the European Does are far from being identified any time soon due to the ban on genetic genealogy.

 

[djtopcat]

hi, im new here but ive been hyper fixated on this case for years. ive come to believe that she was somehow connected to yugoslavia. when they analyzed the isotope levels two hotspots were in what is now croatia. also backing the ashkenazi theory, those two areas had large jewish communities pre ww2. i think they focused on germany a bit to much. also one of the sales people who saw her said she spoke an unknown language, possibly slavic. together with all that, the yugoslav secret service was largely under the radar of east and west civilians. since the kgb said it wasnt like them to have so many passports, and it probably wasn't the cia... why not look at the inbetweens?
also three things i find strange about her identities: she had a variation of st. hildegard and walbruge as her adress (symbolic?), all of the places of birth were in west europe except ljubljana, and the birthdates mostly had the number 11.
i might be overthinking the spy angle and im not really familiar with the workings of this forum so im sorry for spamming

I have a theory that there were in fact little truths peppered into all the fake hotel reservations she filled out. She did write Ljubljania (slight misspelling of Ljubljana) of the capital of Slovenia (former Yugoslavia) on one of her registration cards. I believe she had some connection to the city, either as a kid, or later in life. How many people here who do not read, or write Slovene can spell that city's name? Food for thought.
I think that was just a subconscious error she made trying to hide her past. As well as using a WWII Nazi, or Stasi/GDR before 1989 only term like "Kreisleitung" district office of a Kreisleiter.
Once again common term used by the STASI in 1970! I would think she meant the present, as opposed to 25+ years in the past. Would you agree.
Working in some capacity for one of the lesser Eastern Bloc organizations is a strong possibility. I have not researched Yugoslavia's intelligence services enough to comment. I still don't think she was textbook spy, more of a helper, or as many experts have suggested "courier" of information.
Spies don't travel back and forth.

Of note her later tissue tests say she belongs to haplogroup H24 which could point to her being Romani (gypsy) at least on her mom's side. It was also assumed she was Catholic based on some personal items found, and the Christian specific hotels she stayed at. Massive Catholic community among the Roma popluations. And suicide is a cardinal sin in Catholicism. So that would likely rule out Self-immolation anyway. Another hmm.. is when a supposed heroic "spy catcher" former Norwegian intelligence officer like the late Ornulf Tofte can start talking about IW blowing herself up with a giant can of hair spray in the DIIV podcast you know it's all just an annoying joke to the people who probably know more than the public ever will.

 

[gabagool]

I have a theory that there were in fact little truths peppered into all the fake hotel reservations she filled out. She did write Ljubljania (slight misspelling of Ljubljana) of the capital of Slovenia (former Yugoslavia) on one of her registration cards. I believe she had some connection to the city, either as a kid, or later in life. How many people here who do not read, or write Slovene can spell that city's name? Food for thought.
I think that was just a subconscious error she made trying to hide her past. As well as using a WWII Nazi, or Stasi/GDR before 1989 only term like "Kreisleitung" district office of a Kreisleiter.
Once again common term used by the STASI in 1970! I would think she meant the present, as opposed to 25+ years in the past. Would you agree.
Working in some capacity for one of the lesser Eastern Bloc organizations is a strong possibility. I have not researched Yugoslavia's intelligence services enough to comment. I still don't think she was textbook spy, more of a helper, or as many experts have suggested "courier" of information.
Spies don't travel back and forth.

Of note her later tissue tests say she belongs to haplogroup H24 which could point to her being Romani (gypsy) at least on her mom's side. It was also assumed she was Catholic based on some personal items found, and the Christian specific hotels she stayed at. Massive Catholic community among the Roma popluations. And suicide is a cardinal sin in Catholicism. So that would likely rule out Self-immolation anyway. Another hmm.. is when a supposed heroic "spy catcher" former Norwegian intelligence officer like the late Ornulf Tofte can start talking about IW blowing herself up with a giant can of hair spray in the DIIV podcast you know it's all just an annoying joke to the people who probably know more than the public ever will.

she could have been a part of a serbian/croatian separatist group, which would tie her to the swiss banker thing. udba did a lot of hits in skandinavia in the 60s and 70s. (im still waffleing on about the south slavic thing, but i know 3 women from sisak and 4 from osijek who look exactly like her composite) probably not serbian tho bcs cyrilics would be her go to in the shorthand cypher. im planing on going to the archive and checking some udba files, but i doubt there's anything uncensored there.UDBA – Wikipedia

 

[gabagool]

I have a theory that there were in fact little truths peppered into all the fake hotel reservations she filled out. She did write Ljubljania (slight misspelling of Ljubljana) of the capital of Slovenia (former Yugoslavia) on one of her registration cards. I believe she had some connection to the city, either as a kid, or later in life. How many people here who do not read, or write Slovene can spell that city's name? Food for thought.
I think that was just a subconscious error she made trying to hide her past. As well as using a WWII Nazi, or Stasi/GDR before 1989 only term like "Kreisleitung" district office of a Kreisleiter.
Once again common term used by the STASI in 1970! I would think she meant the present, as opposed to 25+ years in the past. Would you agree.
Working in some capacity for one of the lesser Eastern Bloc organizations is a strong possibility. I have not researched Yugoslavia's intelligence services enough to comment. I still don't think she was textbook spy, more of a helper, or as many experts have suggested "courier" of information.
Spies don't travel back and forth.

Of note her later tissue tests say she belongs to haplogroup H24 which could point to her being Romani (gypsy) at least on her mom's side. It was also assumed she was Catholic based on some personal items found, and the Christian specific hotels she stayed at. Massive Catholic community among the Roma popluations. And suicide is a cardinal sin in Catholicism. So that would likely rule out Self-immolation anyway. Another hmm.. is when a supposed heroic "spy catcher" former Norwegian intelligence officer like the late Ornulf Tofte can start talking about IW blowing herself up with a giant can of hair spray in the DIIV podcast you know it's all just an annoying joke to the people who probably know more than the public ever will.

also i like how you noticed the ljubljana part, the lj in the beginning is written together which doesn't come naturally to people who dont use the letter. the ljub L I ana l-i looks like an afterthought misspelling, its separate as opposed to the lj.

 

[gabagool]

also in regards to the DIIV podcast, her mask started slipping in the elizabeth leenhowver identity, but the alexia one is strange as well. the date of birth, ljubljana, the adress... the name itself is really odd

 

[fred&edna]

hi, im new here but ive been hyper fixated on this case for years. ive come to believe that she was somehow connected to yugoslavia. when they analyzed the isotope levels two hotspots were in what is now croatia. also backing the ashkenazi theory, those two areas had large jewish communities pre ww2. i think they focused on germany a bit to much. also one of the sales people who saw her said she spoke an unknown language, possibly slavic. together with all that, the yugoslav secret service was largely under the radar of east and west civilians. since the kgb said it wasnt like them to have so many passports, and it probably wasn't the cia... why not look at the inbetweens?
also three things i find strange about her identities: she had a variation of st. hildegard and walbruge as her adress (symbolic?), all of the places of birth were in west europe except ljubljana, and the birthdates mostly had the number 11.
i might be overthinking the spy angle and im not really familiar with the workings of this forum so im sorry for spamming

Welcome to the discussion!! You didn't spam at all... you shared some interesting thoughts!