Not So Crazy Now!
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Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #182
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eileenhawkeye
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Didn't JBR wear a dress to the Christmas party on 12/23? I've seen pictures of her from that day, and it looks like she's wearing one. Or was it just a fancy shirt and pants? You're talking about the 12/23 party, right?
joeskidbeck
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She did wear a dress to that party even though she didn't want to.
I get it, 100%! I've often said exactly that.
:clap: :clap: :clap: That deserves an ovation!
Yes, it is sad, and even today, with all that we know and should know about molestation and children's attempts to tell about it, there are still parents and caregivers who deny, deny, deny and blame the victim for lying.
CathyR
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From all accounts Patsy wasn't an exceptional housekeeper. She hired help, she had a regular maid. The pine apple bowl was handled by Patsy and Burke. The INSIDE of the bowl would not have fingerprints and it is easy to hand serve yourself pineapple from a bowl and never touch the outside of it. The pineapple was warm indicating it had been left out long enough to come to room temp. Just because you find evidence that the family lived in the house is not evidence that they had anything to do with it.
Whoever cut up the pineapple and put in in the bowl most likely would touch the sides. Burke is big enough (size wise) to help himself to stuff in the fridge or even assist his mom by putting something she hands him on the table.
Yes JB most likely ate from that bowl of pineapple but her prints are not present. All it means is she didn't handle the bowl. She may or may not have served herself.
Tell me what kid didn't get up at night sometime without their parents catching them. We lived a small single story house and all of my sisters and I did together and separately. My parents slept with their door open.
Whose prints are on the bowl may have no bearing on the case.
If you believe John and Patsy could kill their own daughter to protect their son is it so difficult to believe that someone else for the same motive could have killed her.
Many have said the murder was actually an accident. The evidence of over kill her is not the usual in fact it is highly unusual for parents. The intimacy between parent and child even if they were terrible abusers of their child doesn't show such extreme measures as where taken in JB'S case.
The child being papoosed in the blanket does show a feeling of intimacy with the child. A parent even one who severely abuses their child and kills them in a fit have been known to do this as well. If they were the only people who ever did this then you would have some pretty strong evidence for a certain fact. Sadly some weirdos like Karr have been known to do this as they feel real close to their victims in their own sick deluded way. Someone else would also feel close to the child and have some form of intimacy and that is other family members and close acquaintances.
The crime does have elements that can't rule out all possibilities, the immediate family, the friends and other relatives, or some sicko who targeted her.
I wish there was a point value system so I could take each element of the known crime scene evidence and assign each type of evidence a value. Gives points to each of the three groups and come up with a likely candidate.
Not everything has a value of one as some things are more important than others. I put very little value in the fingerprints and others think it is proof.
All I can make of it is that JB ate pineapple before she died.
Whoever cut up the pineapple and put in in the bowl most likely would touch the sides. Burke is big enough (size wise) to help himself to stuff in the fridge or even assist his mom by putting something she hands him on the table.
Yes JB most likely ate from that bowl of pineapple but her prints are not present. All it means is she didn't handle the bowl. She may or may not have served herself.
Tell me what kid didn't get up at night sometime without their parents catching them. We lived a small single story house and all of my sisters and I did together and separately. My parents slept with their door open.
Whose prints are on the bowl may have no bearing on the case.
If you believe John and Patsy could kill their own daughter to protect their son is it so difficult to believe that someone else for the same motive could have killed her.
Many have said the murder was actually an accident. The evidence of over kill her is not the usual in fact it is highly unusual for parents. The intimacy between parent and child even if they were terrible abusers of their child doesn't show such extreme measures as where taken in JB'S case.
The child being papoosed in the blanket does show a feeling of intimacy with the child. A parent even one who severely abuses their child and kills them in a fit have been known to do this as well. If they were the only people who ever did this then you would have some pretty strong evidence for a certain fact. Sadly some weirdos like Karr have been known to do this as they feel real close to their victims in their own sick deluded way. Someone else would also feel close to the child and have some form of intimacy and that is other family members and close acquaintances.
The crime does have elements that can't rule out all possibilities, the immediate family, the friends and other relatives, or some sicko who targeted her.
I wish there was a point value system so I could take each element of the known crime scene evidence and assign each type of evidence a value. Gives points to each of the three groups and come up with a likely candidate.
Not everything has a value of one as some things are more important than others. I put very little value in the fingerprints and others think it is proof.
All I can make of it is that JB ate pineapple before she died.
Agatha_C
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DeeDee, you are 100 % correct. I would also like to point out, that many molesters have an age preference, usually in a range, say like three years (9-12 or 3-6 or even 6 to say 9). Almost always before puberty.
IMHO, JBR, was the perfect victim living in a house that provided so much privacy. JBR was young and desperately wanting to be loved for who she was and not the blonde representation of her mothers dreams.
Also, I happen to feel, that JBR wasnt the first victim. I think Beth, was the first and thus the need for the family to lawyer up. It would have been information JR wanted to protect. Or at least thats my opinion.
Agatha_C
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Kat, it happens to 1 out of 3 girls (thats just the girls, with no boys in the equation). Here's an eye opening experiment for everyone.... Stand in a park or a classroom and do the count 1,2, you! 1,2, you! Now add up the you's. No matter how many times you do the math its going to equal a third of the female students. Thats right folks, a third of the female population. Drive down the street in your neighborhood and count, 1,2, its happening here, 1,2, its happening here (not that it really is happening in that particular house, but you all know what I mean). If there are 100 houses with children on your street, than 33 of them, house a molester or a molested child or both. Every third house or apartment in your very own neighborhoods. Welcome to the human race, we really arent that far from animals.
winterhawk
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When my cousin and I were around 12 an older cousin tried putting his hands on me in Grandmas' orchard playing hide and seek. I pushed him away and ran. He tried the same with my female cousin. Eventually we compared notes and presented the situation to our Mothers. We were told it was taken care of. So, they talked to yet another cousin (who was actually a cohort in crime) and he said he would stop it since he was a Freshman in psychology. So at every family get together the little girls would play stay away from Cousin F. Later, I would learn that this cousin molested his own sister and other children. I wish I had told my Dad instead.
What I'd like to know is this: Why was the dictionary in the Ramsey home open to the word "incest". I'm almost certain John and Patsy knew the meaning of the word...so why look it up?
My theory is that someone in that home might have been explaining the meaning of the word to Burke...
My theory is that someone in that home might have been explaining the meaning of the word to Burke...
joeskidbeck
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Exactly what I was thinking, Toltec. But it sure would have been stupid of that person to leave the dictionary open to that page. Maybe BR checked the definition while his parents were otherwise occupied?
winterhawk
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In reflecting on this I would venture to say that Jonbenet (if factually was a victim of molestation) then her world would be total chaos. A child her age would have no way to make sense of what was happening and her fear would be primal.... survival... safety. I imagine she was a very confused little girl being forced to wear a "happy face" for the world. How very sad especially if it was happening within her family.
Agatha_C
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Agatha_C
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CathyR and Winterhawk,
I want to first thank you for sharing your stories. I applaud you for shinning light on that which we as children were taught to hide in the dark.
Now do me a favor stop second guessing yourselves or questioning your actions. Dont let the abusers shame become your guilt. You were children. You were victims. You did nothing wrong, let me repeat that you did nothing wrong, not in the way you handled the situation while it was happening or after. Every time you second guess yourselves or feel you could have, should have or would have done something different, the abuser gets to victimize you all over again (Trust me, I have stories of my own). As an adult, I had to find that hurt child inside of myself, and let her know, it wasnt her fault, it had never been her fault, and that what happened to me didnt then and does not now, define who I am as a person. My abuse is like basil or parsley, its simply one ingredient in the recipe that is me and you.
Awhile back, I wrote a post that touched on the abuse my sister and I went through. My sister sadly is still a victim of those long ago years. She will always be his victim, as the damage is irreparable. Her abuse is a thread intricately woven into the tapestry that is she and if you pull it she would unravel.
So please, if you havent talked to someone that knows how to handle these things, than please do so. If for no other reason, than you will feel better, stronger and not so alone. Also talk about it a lot and to anyone and everyone you want to hear it, I dont care how uncomfortable it makes them. The sooner we make it okay to talk about, the sooner children wont need to hide it. Bless you both, you are in my prayers and again Bravo! Nothing but respect for those not afraid to mention the unmentionable.
I want to first thank you for sharing your stories. I applaud you for shinning light on that which we as children were taught to hide in the dark.
Now do me a favor stop second guessing yourselves or questioning your actions. Dont let the abusers shame become your guilt. You were children. You were victims. You did nothing wrong, let me repeat that you did nothing wrong, not in the way you handled the situation while it was happening or after. Every time you second guess yourselves or feel you could have, should have or would have done something different, the abuser gets to victimize you all over again (Trust me, I have stories of my own). As an adult, I had to find that hurt child inside of myself, and let her know, it wasnt her fault, it had never been her fault, and that what happened to me didnt then and does not now, define who I am as a person. My abuse is like basil or parsley, its simply one ingredient in the recipe that is me and you.
Awhile back, I wrote a post that touched on the abuse my sister and I went through. My sister sadly is still a victim of those long ago years. She will always be his victim, as the damage is irreparable. Her abuse is a thread intricately woven into the tapestry that is she and if you pull it she would unravel.
So please, if you havent talked to someone that knows how to handle these things, than please do so. If for no other reason, than you will feel better, stronger and not so alone. Also talk about it a lot and to anyone and everyone you want to hear it, I dont care how uncomfortable it makes them. The sooner we make it okay to talk about, the sooner children wont need to hide it. Bless you both, you are in my prayers and again Bravo! Nothing but respect for those not afraid to mention the unmentionable.
CathyR
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I think JB was quite out spoken.
Some kids tell some don't. IMO and in my experience the child tells because they are forced by a situation to make some explanation or they perceive the person they do tell has having some "power" to do something about it.
Think about the type of wording and such that is used in schools when screening for abuse. In our area it is done in cooperation with CPS and the local police. My kids told me about it and what information was provided and how the program was presented to them. This was in the early 90's. The kids are instructed as to what is not good touching (an area covered by a bathing suit) they are told they can't be whipped, Q&A is held and each child is asked if they have ever experienced anything even remotely close. Since I spanked, all my kids, said yes our mom and dad spank us. Every kid who had ever been spanked were isolated from the rest and each questioned individually. Same thing for anyone experiencing touching in an inappropriate manner. Many of the younger kids like 5 and 6 year reported some form of touching. the reason for the additional Q&A was in the majority of the cases in that age group they still confused hygiene issues they did have with a conflict they had with parents helping them take care of this duty. Their need for independence far outweighed their parents and child's differing interpretation of what is cleaning yourself well.
The kids who were further questioned about both types of abuse and with the youngest one I got a call to come down. I was told to go to the principals office and once there was told about the program and that the police and CPS had concerns. My youngest son had earned the family nickname "mudboy" long before he ever went to school. He had cleanliness issue regardless which end of his body the dirt was. I carried a wet washcloth for years chasing after this kid. i had one in a baggie that day when I went to the office. I think he was just the most "all boy" he could be. I had long ago given up being even upset over it. I had lived and learned. Check his pockets every time before washing. You will end up with frogs in the washer and rocks or crayons in the dryer. Wash his face and hands every time you see him. Do not let this kid out of the bathtub without making sure his ears, neck etc, are clean. Remind him, and witness him, brushing his teeth. This kid was non stop and simply was too busy too care and didn't want you to care about it either. We had many a ohhh, mom comment even into his teens when asked about hygiene issues. Because I spanked as discipline he fell into the high risk category a child reporting both sexual and physical abuse. How did it get this far? Because the programs do not require parental permission the questions asked are so broad that they do net a wide pool of kids. For a reason..... kids who are spanked are more likely to also be victims of sexual abuse from friends and family members. I can't remember the % but it was high. Legal issues had something to do with it but overall the CPS and police said it was very effective. It helps a truly abused child not feel alone and it gives them courage to talk about it.
Here is a kid who has been threatened in some way to not tell or talk about it. Here is authority figures, teachers, uniformed police officers with guns and cool drug dogs telling them you are safe here, we are here to put a stop to it, and protect you. Tell us, we will protect you, we get you far away from the person who is hurting you and they will never be able to hurt you or anyone else again. They do not know that far away is really just across town.
Think about the perception of a child who doesn't know how the foster care system works, how they will have to do interviews in court etc. The interpretation of the child is not that their world will be disrupted. They think the offender will be made to go away and that the things familiar to them that are good do not change. To some kids this may mean the offender goes away and to others it may mean a safe place to talk about this is far away from here. It is up to the perception of the child. This is why I think this might explain some of JB's behavior.
She is psychosomatically ill or pretends to be ill to avoid playing with some kids but not other kids. She may have been trying to be tactful in refusing to play with them. She knew being ill was an excuse Patsy had used and maybe she knew her mom had fudged that excuse a few times when she wasn't. It could be innocent enough but who the kids are should be looked into. Just in case. All males who played with Burke when JB was around in the last 14 days before her death.
She doesn't feel pretty, and said so.
In the South you can hear this alot. Pretty is as Pretty Does. That isn't a pretty sight. Don't use ugly(the opposite of pretty) words. Don't talk ugly to me. Pretty isn't just physical appearance it is all wrapped up into a person's behavior and is even tied into their character. Someone could have said demeaning things to her that obviously hurt her feelings or she regrets saying or doing something she knew she did. Was she playing with other children just prior to this and if yes who are they?
Some kids tell some don't. IMO and in my experience the child tells because they are forced by a situation to make some explanation or they perceive the person they do tell has having some "power" to do something about it.
Think about the type of wording and such that is used in schools when screening for abuse. In our area it is done in cooperation with CPS and the local police. My kids told me about it and what information was provided and how the program was presented to them. This was in the early 90's. The kids are instructed as to what is not good touching (an area covered by a bathing suit) they are told they can't be whipped, Q&A is held and each child is asked if they have ever experienced anything even remotely close. Since I spanked, all my kids, said yes our mom and dad spank us. Every kid who had ever been spanked were isolated from the rest and each questioned individually. Same thing for anyone experiencing touching in an inappropriate manner. Many of the younger kids like 5 and 6 year reported some form of touching. the reason for the additional Q&A was in the majority of the cases in that age group they still confused hygiene issues they did have with a conflict they had with parents helping them take care of this duty. Their need for independence far outweighed their parents and child's differing interpretation of what is cleaning yourself well.
The kids who were further questioned about both types of abuse and with the youngest one I got a call to come down. I was told to go to the principals office and once there was told about the program and that the police and CPS had concerns. My youngest son had earned the family nickname "mudboy" long before he ever went to school. He had cleanliness issue regardless which end of his body the dirt was. I carried a wet washcloth for years chasing after this kid. i had one in a baggie that day when I went to the office. I think he was just the most "all boy" he could be. I had long ago given up being even upset over it. I had lived and learned. Check his pockets every time before washing. You will end up with frogs in the washer and rocks or crayons in the dryer. Wash his face and hands every time you see him. Do not let this kid out of the bathtub without making sure his ears, neck etc, are clean. Remind him, and witness him, brushing his teeth. This kid was non stop and simply was too busy too care and didn't want you to care about it either. We had many a ohhh, mom comment even into his teens when asked about hygiene issues. Because I spanked as discipline he fell into the high risk category a child reporting both sexual and physical abuse. How did it get this far? Because the programs do not require parental permission the questions asked are so broad that they do net a wide pool of kids. For a reason..... kids who are spanked are more likely to also be victims of sexual abuse from friends and family members. I can't remember the % but it was high. Legal issues had something to do with it but overall the CPS and police said it was very effective. It helps a truly abused child not feel alone and it gives them courage to talk about it.
Here is a kid who has been threatened in some way to not tell or talk about it. Here is authority figures, teachers, uniformed police officers with guns and cool drug dogs telling them you are safe here, we are here to put a stop to it, and protect you. Tell us, we will protect you, we get you far away from the person who is hurting you and they will never be able to hurt you or anyone else again. They do not know that far away is really just across town.
Think about the perception of a child who doesn't know how the foster care system works, how they will have to do interviews in court etc. The interpretation of the child is not that their world will be disrupted. They think the offender will be made to go away and that the things familiar to them that are good do not change. To some kids this may mean the offender goes away and to others it may mean a safe place to talk about this is far away from here. It is up to the perception of the child. This is why I think this might explain some of JB's behavior.
She is psychosomatically ill or pretends to be ill to avoid playing with some kids but not other kids. She may have been trying to be tactful in refusing to play with them. She knew being ill was an excuse Patsy had used and maybe she knew her mom had fudged that excuse a few times when she wasn't. It could be innocent enough but who the kids are should be looked into. Just in case. All males who played with Burke when JB was around in the last 14 days before her death.
She doesn't feel pretty, and said so.
In the South you can hear this alot. Pretty is as Pretty Does. That isn't a pretty sight. Don't use ugly(the opposite of pretty) words. Don't talk ugly to me. Pretty isn't just physical appearance it is all wrapped up into a person's behavior and is even tied into their character. Someone could have said demeaning things to her that obviously hurt her feelings or she regrets saying or doing something she knew she did. Was she playing with other children just prior to this and if yes who are they?
CathyR
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The family is going on a trip right after Christmas. JB had traveled a lot in her life. The family went from Colorado to Michigan frequently enough for her that there was a great distance between her homes. She went to beauty pageants that were closer than that long trip to Michigan. She went to Atlanta to see grandparents (I'm assuming she did) or she could look on a kids geography map and see that Atlanta was far away. The Disney trip is most likely the farthest away JB had ever been from home. JB could have thought being far away from home would be a good time to tell her parents about her molestation.
eileenhawkeye
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JonBenet went to NYC with Patsy in November 1996, so if JBR was waiting until she was far away from home to tell her parent(s) about her molestation, wouldn't that be a good time? Or maybe she did tell Patsy during the NYC trip but Patsy didn't listen to her? Patsy's sisters also came along.
CathyR
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She may have felt very safe on the trip but I am referring to her injuries being healing as happening in the 2 weeks before she dies. Maybe whatever happened didn't escalate to touching or make her feel like she was being molested till it progressed to the point where part of her hymen was torn. Since the evidence says it was healing it had to have been recent. After her trip to NY with Patsy.