NY NY - Sylvia Lwowski, 22, Staten Island, 6 Sept 1975 - #3

[alliemay]

MMQC - Was her Dad in the Army and also can you remember what type of job he did at the college?

 

[MMQC]

MMQC - Was her Dad in the Army and also can you remember what type of job he did at the college?

Yes in the Army for a long time. At Wagner he was a maintainance supervisor, I think?

 

[MMQC]

Sylvia, missing but not forgotten. Remembering all our 4ths together.

Happy 4th to all the Websleuths out there. Hope you all have great day.

 

[alliemay]

Has anyone been able to find an obit for the Dad? Not having any luck with that.

 

[Jmoose]

Has anyone been able to find an obit for the Dad? Not having any luck with that.

Nope-still haven't found anything but the date on the Social Security Death Index. He died, if I am not mistaken, in January of...I think 1993. Eva died in January of 2007, but I can't find proper obits for either of them-maybe they didn't provide them to the local paoers because they had to pay to put them in the paper? (My mother's obit cost $400 to put it in their local paper for 1 day!)

 

[GoingByMyGut]

Sylvia, missing but not forgotten. Remembering all our 4ths together.

Happy 4th to all the Websleuths out there. Hope you all have great day.

Backatcha, MMQC (and everyone else).

:fireworks:

 

[rosemadderlake]

MMQC - Did Sylvia ever talk about her early childhood in Germany? -Special places, events, person, teacher, or relative she liked, childhood playmate she missed?

-Did she ever talk about going back and visiting someday, exploring her heritage?

 

[rosemadderlake]

--Some IMO-thoughts about Sylvia, today –

In thinking about the silence of the Wagner Sorority, band / BF/F crowd, could Sylvia have escaped a heat of the moment escalation that night, or even attempted murder? Maybe her BF/F found out something about her, but maybe she knew something about him, too. Did she fear and/or perceive harm would come to those she loved? If she escaped, who else would she run to, get on the bus, train, boat, swim to?

If the BF/F was successful in doing her in, without a record or history of violence mentioned (other than the hearsay in the kitchen with his mother), even though all things are possible, how he would even have it together, in the physical sense, in that span of time (if this was his first murder) to pull it off in cold blood, dispose of a body, and then go and alert her best friend and parents that she “just ran off”. –And, know how it would play out, know that it wouldn’t be investigated, know that there would be silence all around for almost 40 years. –I think taking LE to task for “non-performance” in 1975 is next to impossible, but a proven political connection could be a game changer if that is known, or discovered.

If something really got out of hand with Sylvia and her BF/F and she shocked him by running off (in traffic or whatever) I could see a confused and fearful BF/F go looking for her and alerting her best friend and parents. So what was the argument about? What did he tell Sylvia’s parents? And later, his anger and hostility is a mask, but for what?

Some things that really stand out to me are the absence of her BF/F at the pool party (why?), feeling alienated and angry at her father after the pool party debacle, anxious and rushing with MMQC that afternoon, EL’s reaction the night she went missing, and the PR report. Did EL know something else, something Sylvia shared with her, and was the “no publicity” to protect her daughter from something other than instability and job prospects? Did the BF/F’s mother know too?

--And is the silence part of the driving force on this thread --see if it gets said in speculation… Understandably Sylvia’s family is looking for answers but respectfully it is her best friend who has really been willing to take on the deeper “hot seat” in the discussion, but who may well be understandably constrained by that very silence. More people need to pony up for Sylvia! Some of the closest friendships in life are made in childhood, high school, and college. By every account, Sylvia was an active participant in her education, music groups, relationships, and friendships. Where are they? Is it because something is known about Sylvia, and/or her BF/F, their respective histories, but cannot be said? So, what is missing besides Sylvia?

 

[MMQC]

MMQC - Did Sylvia ever talk about her early childhood in Germany? -Special places, events, person, teacher, or relative she liked, childhood playmate she missed?

-Did she ever talk about going back and visiting someday, exploring her heritage?[/QUOT

Can't say that she ever mentioned it. If she did I'm not remembering it.

 

[Angel629]

Rose- I've always thought that the BF had help in concealing what happened, perhaps even on another day. Staten Island in the 70s had endless places to dispose of things. His demeanor regarding the whole case (annoyed, rather than being concerned...or even curious) says so much. :liar:

 

[rosemadderlake]

Rose- I've always thought that the BF had help in concealing what happened, perhaps even on another day. Staten Island in the 70s had endless places to dispose of things. His demeanor regarding the whole case (annoyed, rather than being concerned...or even curious) says so much. :liar:

Interesting, Angel 629 – bbm: --If the BF/F had help, I wonder who that might be. Someone who knew both of them or, some other connection? Who else knew? And, wondering if that was the rumor on the street back in 1975? Is it why there is silence all around, now?

 

[rosemadderlake]

I am stuck on the police report. Rethinking thoughts posted I am sure – but, I do wonder how “Nativity - Germany” was interpreted by LE, and does it tie-in to the “Det. Lennon Advises Will Not Handle”. I see no check box for US Citizen. Did they know she was a US citizen? Or, presume German or dual citizenship? -Making it a lesser priority because of flight risk out of the country probability, along with being of legal age and free will? That may be a little obscure but I am thinking of how NYPD might initially assess the information on the report.

–I would think LE did look into it, especially after the ADA was called in, but for reasons unknown it did not become a full on investigation. Why it did not, especially with the "Depressed" mental condition, is anyone's guess at this point...

 

[Jmoose]

Rose- I've always thought that the BF had help in concealing what happened, perhaps even on another day. Staten Island in the 70s had endless places to dispose of things. His demeanor regarding the whole case (annoyed, rather than being concerned...or even curious) says so much. :liar:

I have said this myself-help from someone else would have given him much more than the 4 or 5 hours than he would have had by himself, to get rid of her (if he did it). His lack of curiousity and concern bother me.

 

[Jmoose]

I just returned from having dinner with my police captain friend. Sylvia's case came up again, and he told me that in the city where he works, they no longer take missing person reports on adults, because you can disappear if you want to. This sort of sums up how police feel about these cases-if they have nothing concrete that they can investigate, then they don't. I countered with the missing teacher in Poughkeepsie, who was recently found in a sealed container after 30 years in the house she shared with her husband. I think that the talk on the street referenced by Rosemadderlake may have been enough to convince the police in 1975 that they were never going to be able to either find Sylvia, or get the BF/F to talk to them (and nobody else would, either). The police had plenty of work to do, and there was no "percentage" in trying to investigate it-it would be like chasing their tails.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

I just returned from having dinner with my police captain friend. Sylvia's case came up again, and he told me that in the city where he works, they no longer take missing person reports on adults, because you can disappear if you want to. This sort of sums up how police feel about these cases-if they have nothing concrete that they can investigate, then they don't. I countered with the missing teacher in Poughkeepsie, who was recently found in a sealed container after 30 years in the house she shared with her husband. I think that the talk on the street referenced by Rosemadderlake may have been enough to convince the police in 1975 that they were never going to be able to either find Sylvia, or get the BF/F to talk to them (and nobody else would, either). The police had plenty of work to do, and there was no "percentage" in trying to investigate it-it would be like chasing their tails.

BBM: I think this is the key -- from what I am seeing, it varies city by city, probably as a consequence of resources and population. When a city like New York, and even SI alone, has so much crime, how can police justify spending time "chasing their tails"? I get this, both from the standpoint of the 1970s (the jaded perspective police had about missing young people and the toxic climate within the department) and now (too many people, too many crimes, too few cops).

But I am not seeing it everywhere. Last night I started watching a "true crime" documentary called Disappeared ... ever see it? The first episode covers the unsolved 2007 MP case of Lee Cutter, a just-turned 18-year-old boy from Buffalo Grove, IL. The incident was immediately, thoroughly, and vigorously investigated by both local police and those in Baraboo, Wisconsin, where his car was later found.

These detectives made the exact case argued for here -- that Lee's emotional issues elevated the case from an assumption of "adult who left willingly" to "adult, missing endangered" bc he was unstable (mostly teen angst but perhaps higher than usual anxiety levels) and might harm himself. His case for instability is stronger than SL's (he had a prior suicide attempt a few years before), and the case clearly benefits from more modern thinking about mental illness (2007), but the wealth and resources of the communities involved are also apparent, as is the fact that lower population density and a safe, suburban environment allowed police to spend time investigating the case. The size of the community may also have played a role in the empathy of both police and public, as he was known among them (not related to police, just known in the community).

Does your friend work in Poughkeepsie (BTW, teacher case is grusome! poor woman)? I am guessing it's big enough these days to suffer from some of the same constraints long facing NYC/SI. A little wealthier, maybe? But probably drowning in a sea of crime. What do you do when you have to allocate scarce resources among abundant crimes? conduct a kind of criminal triage? Necessity seems to say yes, and adult missing cases seem to fall to the back of the line. JMO.

ETA: BTW, while Lee's case has not yet been resolved, there are strong signs he may have fled of his own accord, but as with SL, suicide and fowl play are still on the table. The difference is that LE so strongly searched the local terrain, the area where his car was found (including a river), and a state park where they later found evidence he spent a few days immediately after he disappeared, that they are confident they would have found his body, had he died in any of those places.

 

[Jmoose]

BBM: I think this is the key -- from what I am seeing, it varies city by city, probably as a consequence of resources and population. When a city like New York, and even SI alone, has so much crime, how can police justify spending time "chasing their tails"? I get this, both from the standpoint of the 1970s (the jaded perspective police had about missing young people and the toxic climate within the department) and now (too many people, too many crimes, too few cops).

But I am not seeing it everywhere. Last night I started watching a "true crime" documentary called Disappeared ... ever see it? The first episode covers the unsolved 2007 MP case of Lee Cutter, a just-turned 18-year-old boy from Buffalo Grove, IL. The incident was immediately, thoroughly, and vigorously investigated by both local police and those in Baraboo, Wisconsin, where his car was later found.

These detectives made the exact case argued for here -- that Lee's emotional issues elevated the case from an assumption of "adult who left willingly" to "adult, missing endangered" bc he was unstable (mostly teen angst but perhaps higher than usual anxiety levels) and might harm himself. His case for instability is stronger than SL's (he had a prior suicide attempt a few years before), and the case clearly benefits from more modern thinking about mental illness (2007), but the wealth and resources of the communities involved are also apparent, as is the fact that lower population density and a safe, suburban environment allowed police to spend time investigating the case. The size of the community may also have played a role in the empathy of both police and public, as he was known among them (not related to police, just known in the community).

Does your friend work in Poughkeepsie (BTW, teacher case is grusome! poor woman)? I am guessing it's big enough these days to suffer from some of the same constraints long facing NYC/SI. A little wealthier, maybe? But probably drowning in a sea of crime. What do you do when you have to allocate scarce resources among abundant crimes? conduct a kind of criminal triage? Necessity seems to say yes, and adult missing cases seem to fall to the back of the line. JMO.

ETA: BTW, while Lee's case has not yet been resolved, there are strong signs he may have fled of his own accord, but as with SL, suicide and fowl play are still on the table. The difference is that LE so strongly searched the local terrain, the area where his car was found (including a river), and a state park where they later found evidence he spent a few days immediately after he disappeared, that they are confident they would have found his body, had he died in any of those places.

BBM-no, he doesn't work in Poughkeepsie, he works in a river town north of NYC that has lots of crime, so as you said, they sort of triage. He isn't a detective, but rather, functions as the acting police chief when the regular chief is off, so his perspective would be different than a detective's. I want to pick his brain some more about this-what WOULD cause them to investigate a missing person?
I guess the problem is that there are so many people who take off during times of stress, and then return on their own, that the police in some places decide that they cannot allocate resources immediately to each and every report of a missing person. I am not familiar with Staten Island's crime level either now or in the 70's, but I would imagine that, based on the population then, there was enough crime to keep the police busy, especially during a time when resources had to be spread pretty thinly, but if it was clear that Eva was concerned about Sylvia's mental state, you'd think it would have lit a fire under somebody-and yet, it didn't. I'd like to think that the police in the 122 precinct figured that she would return when she was ready, and not that they deliberately dropped the ball because of the hearsay possibility that BF/F was "connected". Don't forget, though, that the police may have suspected him at the time, but legally could not force him to answer their questions, or turn over his car for an inspection.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

BBM-no, he doesn't work in Poughkeepsie, he works in a river town north of NYC that has lots of crime, so as you said, they sort of triage. He isn't a detective, but rather, functions as the acting police chief when the regular chief is off, so his perspective would be different than a detective's. I want to pick his brain some more about this-what WOULD cause them to investigate a missing person?
I guess the problem is that there are so many people who take off during times of stress, and then return on their own, that the police in some places decide that they cannot allocate resources immediately to each and every report of a missing person. I am not familiar with Staten Island's crime level either now or in the 70's, but I would imagine that, based on the population then, there was enough crime to keep the police busy, especially during a time when resources had to be spread pretty thinly, but if it was clear that Eva was concerned about Sylvia's mental state, you'd think it would have lit a fire under somebody-and yet, it didn't. I'd like to think that the police in the 122 precinct figured that she would return when she was ready, and not that they deliberately dropped the ball because of the hearsay possibility that BF/F was "connected". Don't forget, though, that the police may have suspected him at the time, but legally could not force him to answer their questions, or turn over his car for an inspection.

BBM1 and BBM3: Yes, you and I are thinking along the same lines I was wondering, what would it take to elevate a case to "adult MP, endangered"?

For example, w SL, bc of the "fight," LE may have needed to see more than EL's comment of "depressed" to elevate it. Back then, I think "depressed" and "blue" may have meant the same thing to LE, so with a reason for "blue" (the fight), they may have needed a psychiatric stay, a prior suicide attempt, veiled threats of suicide, evidence of retreat from normal activity, etc. -- something tangible to force it up. JMO

BBM2: I think crime throughout NYC has always been off the map, and the thing about SI that solidifies this for me is all the mob and serial killer activity during that time period. That had to play havoc with the homicide rate, esp. for anyone tempted to see SI as "the burbs." I also think criminals at the time were aware that LE was too busy with Manhattan and Brooklyn to pay a lot of attention to SI, and those seeking an unchaperoned spree saw "the possibilities." All that said, it's still not a factual approach to the question, just the thinking I was basing my opinion on.

BBM4: I am not sure about this. I mean, I know you are right, but I think that LE had ways around such things, and if they wanted to, they could have gotten a warrant for the car. Miranda (1966) was pretty new, and I think a lot of missteps were still slipping through the cracks. But more importantly, he was the last person to see her, spoke of a fight, and spoke of or had the broken glasses. I think a warrant to search the car might have been in reach, but that is MOO. Feel free to poke holes in it

 

[rosemadderlake]

…imo
I think ‘the argument’ is a key piece, and either mother could have known the issues involved, known the mental states of their living-at-home children leading up to argument and disappearance. It would be surprising if there was no correspondence between them afterwards.

In 1975, the No Publicity / Depressed combination suggests something deeper is known (but not to WS) and the prevailing silence is, as was pointed out thread #2, I think (Epiphany), ..New Yorkers back in the day backed away from a bad situation. ‘…It’s none of our business…’ -I wonder what the thoughts were at the time of those close and mutual friends, sorority, band, who knew them both.

The “No Publicity” also suggests there was no overwhelming feeling that the BF/F killed her at the time. Initially, there may have been other considerations like the reputations of both families. –But, if there had been a strong enough suspicion there would have to be another known piece besides the allegedly broken glasses like afore-knowledge of the argument compared to whatever the BF/F told her family and his. Wouldn’t that knowledge if it didn’t stack up, have raised a red flag, then? Why were the glasses not returned to the family? Does LE have them? -And, his cooperation (or not) with NYPD in the wake of her disappearance is a key point (triple-imo). If he did cooperate, either he didn’t do it, did do it -is a bad actor and a borderline suspect with no evidence, or had inside help navigating an avoidance of the law, and a huge hush-up. So, if he did it, who helped him cover up the crime? And, are there any suspects in the cover up?
Imo…

 

[Jmoose]

…imo
I think ‘the argument’ is a key piece, and either mother could have known the issues involved, known the mental states of their living-at-home children leading up to argument and disappearance. It would be surprising if there was no correspondence between them afterwards.

In 1975, the No Publicity / Depressed combination suggests something deeper is known (but not to WS) and the prevailing silence is, as was pointed out thread #2, I think (Epiphany), ..New Yorkers back in the day backed away from a bad situation. ‘…It’s none of our business…’ -I wonder what the thoughts were at the time of those close and mutual friends, sorority, band, who knew them both.

The “No Publicity” also suggests there was no overwhelming feeling that the BF/F killed her at the time. Initially, there may have been other considerations like the reputations of both families. –But, if there had been a strong enough suspicion there would have to be another known piece besides the allegedly broken glasses like afore-knowledge of the argument compared to whatever the BF/F told her family and his. Wouldn’t that knowledge if it didn’t stack up, have raised a red flag, then? Why were the glasses not returned to the family? Does LE have them? -And, his cooperation (or not) with NYPD in the wake of her disappearance is a key point (triple-imo). If he did cooperate, either he didn’t do it, did do it -is a bad actor and a borderline suspect with no evidence, or had inside help navigating an avoidance of the law, and a huge hush-up. So, if he did it, who helped him cover up the crime? And, are there any suspects in the cover up?
Imo…

Speculation: I think it's possible that the idea that BF/F did something to Sylvia may have crept up on her family over time, if it actually did. Maybe initially they couldn't imagine that it would be possible, and that she would re-surface-and maybe they believed his story. Then, as time went on, and she didn't return, and none of her friends had seen her-they realized that maybe it didn't happen like they thought. And, it took time to realize that BF/F was never going to entertain any questions, ever.

If any assistance would have been needed, I am betting that it would have been his family-either immediate or extended/by marriage

 

[rosemadderlake]

Speculation: I think it's possible that the idea that BF/F did something to Sylvia may have crept up on her family over time, if it actually did. Maybe initially they couldn't imagine that it would be possible, and that she would re-surface-and maybe they believed his story. Then, as time went on, and she didn't return, and none of her friends had seen her-they realized that maybe it didn't happen like they thought. And, it took time to realize that BF/F was never going to entertain any questions, ever.

If any assistance would have been needed, I am betting that it would have been his family-either immediate or extended/by marriage

Bbm: -- Perhaps this was felt early on after she vanished and for reasons unknown on this thread, such as knowledge of the argument, or possible motive, he has been a suspect among his peers: professional, friends, and music connections for a long time. It would be interesting to know if that is true.