Observations from the Video on TDB

[DeeDee249]

Were the walls that were being remodeled in the basement torn out following the murder? I'm asking because it would have been simple enough to drop the missing portion of the paint brush into one of those holes in the walls.

I don't think the Rs were doing any basement remodeling. I think they might have had some electrical or other work done at some point, and the basement was left that way.
The house was sold very soon after JB's funeral to a group of R "friends and investors", who did not remodel, but they did pull up all the carpets and remove all the wallpaper and they painted all the walls white. They pretty much obliterated any chance there was of trying to find any forensic evidence (urine stains on the carpets, blood splatters, etc".
Then, the house was sold again ( I think twice more, actually) and completely remodeled. The last people who bought it have had it for sale for a few years now. They completely redid the whole house- and they did a great job. Beautiful new kitchen, new baths, and the basement is a gorgeous huge family room complete with fireplace. They walled up the wineceller. I think they may have built a REAL wine room, too. The pictures were available when the house was for sale- it may still be for sale, so the photos may still be there.
One of the previous owners asked to have the address changed because the house was the target of vandalism as well as numerous sightseers and curiosity seekers. The address WAS changed, but the house is so distinctive that anyone who knows even a little about the case knows which house it is, even with a new address. Hard to miss a pretty brick Tudor with a hideous modern monstrosity stuck on the back of it.

 

[otg]

(snipped)
Where were John's golf clubs in the basement?

How many damn golf clubs does a person need? (That might be what a lot of the spouses of golfers ask.) But just in the basement alone, there are three bags of clubs, and a bunch of loose clubs that show up in one of the closets in the video. I don't know which ones belonged to which Ramseys. I don't know which ones JR wanted brought from the house on the day his daughter was killed in the dead of winter (I'd still bet it was a bag with extra storage room in it). I don't know if it was already gone when these pictures were taken.

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[Flatlander]

How many damn golf clubs does a person need? (That might be what a lot of the spouses of golfers ask.) But just in the basement alone, there are three bags of clubs, and a bunch of loose clubs that show up in one of the closets in the video. I don't know which ones belonged to which Ramseys. I don't know which ones JR wanted brought from the house on the day his daughter was killed in the dead of winter (I'd still bet it was a bag with extra storage room in it). I don't know if it was already gone when these pictures were taken.

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As if he didn't have enough of them .... he requested that Pam pickup his golf clubs to take to Atlanta when she went and cleaned the house of evidence for the R's; attended by the BPD. It was winter time, he was burying his 2nd daughter but he needed those golf clubs. Wonder why?

 

[BOESP]

As if he didn't have enough of them .... he requested that Pam pickup his golf clubs to take to Atlanta when she went and cleaned the house of evidence for the R's; attended by the BPD. It was winter time, he was burying his 2nd daughter but he needed those golf clubs. Wonder why?

Flatlander, I see only four reasons:

1. He wanted to play golf in Atlanta in the dead of winter shortly after the death of his daughter?

2. One of the clubs was used on JonBenet?

3. Evidence had previously been hidden in the bag and he wanted it removed before the criminalists arrived?

4. Some combination of the above?

 

[Flatlander]

I don't think the Rs were doing any basement remodeling. I think they might have had some electrical or other work done at some point, and the basement was left that way.
The house was sold very soon after JB's funeral to a group of R "friends and investors", who did not remodel, but they did pull up all the carpets and remove all the wallpaper and they painted all the walls white. They pretty much obliterated any chance there was of trying to find any forensic evidence (urine stains on the carpets, blood splatters, etc".
Then, the house was sold again ( I think twice more, actually) and completely remodeled. The last people who bought it have had it for sale for a few years now. They completely redid the whole house- and they did a great job. Beautiful new kitchen, new baths, and the basement is a gorgeous huge family room complete with fireplace. They walled up the wineceller. I think they may have built a REAL wine room, too. The pictures were available when the house was for sale- it may still be for sale, so the photos may still be there.
One of the previous owners asked to have the address changed because the house was the target of vandalism as well as numerous sightseers and curiosity seekers. The address WAS changed, but the house is so distinctive that anyone who knows even a little about the case knows which house it is, even with a new address. Hard to miss a pretty brick Tudor with a hideous modern monstrosity stuck on the back of it.

Here is the remodel and new address:
http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/749-15th-St-Boulder-CO-80302/13182008_zpid/

Flatlander, I see only four reasons:

1. He wanted to play golf in Atlanta in the dead of winter shortly after the death of his daughter?

2. One of the clubs was used on JonBenet?

3. Evidence had previously been hidden in the bag and he wanted it removed before the criminalists arrived?

4. Some combination of the above?

BOESO - I choose #2 or #3 as possibilities. Also not seen much posted here about this but in ST book pg. 48: Among the items police now sought were the possible bludgeon that caused the head wound and any dark fibers that might account for the fibers found on the body. QUESTION: What were those dark fibers ever attributed to: JR's robe or maybe JAR's Duvet?
A GOLF CLUB with a blond hair on it was found in the backyard.I have often wondered if the bludgeon didn't actually take place in the sunroom (there is a door that leads to backyard in this room). JB probably got sick on the carpet here and the perp. could have easily thrown the golf club underneath the trees where it was found. Could be the explanation as to why the Sunroom light was out for the first time noticed by neighbors and why possibly PR stayed glued to that room until she knew JR was about to go get JB in the bsement as instructed by LA. JMO

 

[BOESP]

Here is the remodel and new address:
http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/749-15th-St-Boulder-CO-80302/13182008_zpid/



BOESO - I choose #2 or #3 as possibilities. Also not seen much posted here about this but in ST book pg. 48: Among the items police now sought were the possible bludgeon that caused the head wound and any dark fibers that might account for the fibers found on the body. QUESTION: What were those dark fibers ever attributed to: JR's robe or maybe JAR's Duvet?
A GOLF CLUB with a blond hair on it was found in the backyard.I have often wondered if the bludgeon didn't actually take place in the sunroom (there is a door that leads to backyard in this room). JB probably got sick on the carpet here and the perp. could have easily thrown the golf club underneath the trees where it was found. Could be the explanation as to why the Sunroom light was out for the first time noticed by neighbors and why possibly PR stayed glued to that room until she knew JR was about to go get JB in the bsement as instructed by LA. JMO

I've read that the dark fibers found in JonBenet's crotch area were attributed to a black Israeli-made shirt John Ramsey wore to the Whites.

I've also read that his dark blue bathrobe was found in his "study" downstairs along with some comments about other dark fibers being found on her. These are often explained away by saying they were transferred when he brought her upstairs from the wine cellar upon discovery of her body.

I have not read about a golf club with a blond hair being found in the back yard or else I've forgotten (which is a good possibility :waitasec.

 

[Flatlander]

I've read that the dark fibers found in JonBenet's crotch area were attributed to a black Israeli-made shirt John Ramsey wore to the Whites.

I've also read that his dark blue bathrobe was found in his "study" downstairs along with some comments about other dark fibers being found on her. These are often explained away by saying they were transferred when he brought her upstairs from the wine cellar upon discovery of her body.

I have not read about a golf club with a blond hair being found in the back yard or else I've forgotten (which is a good possibility :waitasec.

Yep it is on pg. 48 on ST's book. It is also mentioned elsewhere in this book if I recall correctly.
I knew about JR shirt in the crotch of JB underwear but not about the robe. It is my understanding that JR robe was found in the den;as you stated. Pg 16 in ST's book states that JR came to the door wearing khaki's and a blue and white striped shirt. So that leaves the robe out of the picture.
What I was really wondering is they matched PR sweater to fibers in the paint tray and ligature; but what about the blue fibers found on JB?

 

[DeeDee249]

Yep it is on pg. 48 on ST's book. It is also mentioned elsewhere in this book if I recall correctly.
I knew about JR shirt in the crotch of JB underwear but not about the robe. It is my understanding that JR robe was found in the den;as you stated. Pg 16 in ST's book states that JR came to the door wearing khaki's and a blue and white striped shirt. So that leaves the robe out of the picture.
What I was really wondering is they matched PR sweater to fibers in the paint tray and ligature; but what about the blue fibers found on JB?

I've seen those fibers mentioned as "dark" but don't recall seeing them identified as "blue". Yes, it is interesting that they also matched JR's shirt fibers to the panty crotch, but did not mention that they matched the fibers found on JB's thighs and pubic area. I did not see where they tested against the dark blue terry bathrobe belonging to JR that was found in the den either,

 

[Flatlander]

I've seen those fibers mentioned as "dark" but don't recall seeing them identified as "blue". Yes, it is interesting that they also matched JR's shirt fibers to the panty crotch, but did not mention that they matched the fibers found on JB's thighs and pubic area. I did not see where they tested against the dark blue terry bathrobe belonging to JR that was found in the den either,

DeeDee249, I was hoping you would answer. If you don't know these facts than I will almost assume that nobody does. Interesting fact isn't it? I wonder why the dark blue fibers aren't matched to anything other than JB's underwear? We do know that she was wiped down with the dark cloth, right? Wonder if that was JR's robe?

 

[txsvicki]

If israeli shirt fibers were on the outside of the panty crotch then maybe she had on the pink barbie gown and the new big panties and he carried her on his hip. If they were on the inside of the panty crotch then maybe he put those on her.

 

[BOESP]

Yep it is on pg. 48 on ST's book. It is also mentioned elsewhere in this book if I recall correctly.
I knew about JR shirt in the crotch of JB underwear but not about the robe. It is my understanding that JR robe was found in the den;as you stated. Pg 16 in ST's book states that JR came to the door wearing khaki's and a blue and white striped shirt. So that leaves the robe out of the picture.
What I was really wondering is they matched PR sweater to fibers in the paint tray and ligature; but what about the blue fibers found on JB?

I don't remember about the blue fibers either (gosh, does that sound like someone else????).

Thanks for the references! Appreciate the trouble you went to. I truly had forgotten about a blond hair.

 

[DeeDee249]

If israeli shirt fibers were on the outside of the panty crotch then maybe she had on the pink barbie gown and the new big panties and he carried her on his hip. If they were on the inside of the panty crotch then maybe he put those on her.

Actually the shirt fibers were on the INSIDE of the panty crotch. They could have only gotten in there if he handled them, took them out of the package, pulled them up, down or both.

 

[Bonnette]

Actually the shirt fibers were on the INSIDE of the panty crotch. They could have only gotten in there if he handled them, took them out of the package, pulled them up, down or both.

I know how naive and stupid this might sound, but fiber evidence (on its own, anyway) doesn't impress me much because I have cats. Those little wisps of cat coat are everywhere in my house, my clothes, my eyes, etc. All it takes is an air current to distribute them in the strangest places. "The wind bloweth where it listeth"! LOL.

 

[Flatlander]

I know how naive and stupid this might sound, but fiber evidence (on its own, anyway) doesn't impress me much because I have cats. Those little wisps of cat coat are everywhere in my house, my clothes, my eyes, etc. All it takes is an air current to distribute them in the strangest places. "The wind bloweth where it listeth"! LOL.

Then this would make me wonder where did the beaver hair that was found on the duct tape come from? Wonder from where the wind bloweth that night?

Also how did PR sweater fibers end up in the ligature and the paint tray. I don't think wind had anything to do with that. Or JR shirt fibers found in the underwear of JB.

There were some unusual fibers found on JB that tied other things into the crime, i.e, brown bag, white paper, dark fibers .... you think maybe the radiator in the house that night blew them around somehow? I don't know, just asking.

SuperDave, you know anything about the dark fiber's origin?

 

[UKGuy]

I know how naive and stupid this might sound, but fiber evidence (on its own, anyway) doesn't impress me much because I have cats. Those little wisps of cat coat are everywhere in my house, my clothes, my eyes, etc. All it takes is an air current to distribute them in the strangest places. "The wind bloweth where it listeth"! LOL.

Bonnette,
Sure but fibers from Patsy's jacket was found at different locations, but all connected to the death of JonBenet. Despite Patsy saying she had not visited the wine-cellar that day.

When you add in JR's fibers, from an Israeli manufactured shirt, which he said he took off upstairs, the odds of those fibers blowing all the way downstairs, through the wine-cellar door and into JonBenet's groin area, after passing through the white longjohns and white blanket are likely astronomic.


Whether it suits some peoples theories or not. Both JR and PR can be placed at the scene of the crime, e.g. the wine-cellar!


.
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[Bonnette]

I know the fibers were found at the crime scene and on JB's person and in her underwear, I'm just saying that this is what I'd expect in the home the Ramseys all shared - wind isn't required, only ambient air from people walking around and breathing. Patsy could have worn her jacket anywhere else in the house, and still fibers could be found in the basement. I am an RDI (specifically, a BDI), so I'm not trying to absolve anyone in the family - just saying that fiber evidence might not be all that revealing when it comes to pointing toward specific Ramseys or frequent visitors to the home.

 

[UKGuy]

I know the fibers were found at the crime scene and on JB's person and in her underwear, I'm just saying that this is what I'd expect in the home the Ramseys all shared - wind isn't required, only ambient air from people walking around and breathing. Patsy could have worn her jacket anywhere else in the house, and still fibers could be found in the basement. I am an RDI (specifically, a BDI), so I'm not trying to absolve anyone in the family - just saying that fiber evidence might not be the most reliable.

Bonnette,
I agree, its probably not as good as say touch-dna, which can be just as ambiguous in its route to deposition.

But given the circumstances regarding the fibers, they do represent prima facie evidence that the parents were in the wine-cellar at some point.

It does not prove they were there, but there presence corroborates any theory that suggests the parents colluded in staging the death of JonBenet.

Naturally an absence of fibers might suggest no involvement by the parents at all.


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[Bonnette]

I do understand what you're saying, UKGuy - fibers contribute to the total evidentiary picture. I've just never found fiber evidence very convincing in any criminal case, not just this one - since it isn't practical (or even possible) to test the clothing or carpets of everyone who's ever come in contact with crime victims. But your point is well taken, honestly.

 

[Detective Pinkie]

I know how naive and stupid this might sound, but fiber evidence (on its own, anyway) doesn't impress me much because I have cats. Those little wisps of cat coat are everywhere in my house, my clothes, my eyes, etc. All it takes is an air current to distribute them in the strangest places. "The wind bloweth where it listeth"! LOL.

The difference is, your cats don't wear different clothes every day. It wasn't fibres from something Patsy wore regularily around the house and found their way to the basement. It was from an outfit she wore for a Christmas party, I would assume something she did not wear all the time. An outfit she had worn the day before the body was found and an outfit the police found her in THAT morning. To me that doesn't sound like a coincidence.

I could possibly believe that the fibres were transferred from JB's body due to contact with her mother that day but she was redressed from the stuff she wore to the party and I am unsure how likely that transfer would be.

I am not any sort of expert but I think that the chances of fibres from that particular outfit being firmly mixed up in the crime scene through innocent transference is very low.

 

[Bonnette]

Agreed. Love your username, Detective Pinkie!