observing casey non reactions

[Kateyes]

I believe ICA's non-reaction is well planned and purposeful. She turns her personality on and off for her benefit. Stone-faced stoic demeanor for the Jury, (with a twitch or twinge here and there), and animated and interactive for when the Jury is not present.

As a probable Sociopath and as one who probably has a host of interlocking personality disorders, she knows just what she is doing, IMO.

I have a friend in her early 30's who reminds me very much of ICA. She is masterful at turning her expressions and behaviors and tears on a dime, depending on the situation and the persona she wishes to convey. She has turned to me following a phone call to someone else, during which she has cried and carried on, and with a complete dry eye says, 'I was good, wasn't I?'
She spins wild and elaborate stories to get sympathy, which she thrives on.
Once she told me that her brother's baby had just died at five months gestation, and was pulling her hair, slumped to the ground, and screamed,
'You just don't understand, he was FAMILY!' The baby did not die. When asked
why she told such an outrageous lie, she said she wanted me to feel sorry for
her.
So IMO I can see that ICA is acting, based on my observations first hand. It suits and behooves her to appear as if in shock, in denial, wrongly accused, a victim, a saddened zoned-out and almost comatose figure.

She's acting.

:boohoo:

Thank you for sharing. Since this person is not a relative that you cannot get away from, please, for your own sake, run, run, run from her. Please take no offense from my comment, as none is meant. I seriously mean this advice in a good way-from someone who has had to deal with a similar person, from who I could not run!!

 

[2door73chevy]

Let's just see that again shall we. Great job! THANK YOU FOR PUTTING THAT TOGETHER!

I agree GREAT JOB!

 

[cluciano63]

I think that behind that blank stare, her mind is racing, but not about what she is hearing, rather trying to think up new lies or escape routes to get out of this "unfair" situation she finds herself in. I doubt she even listens to much of the evidence, unless someone she knows is on the stand and only then, to see what they are saying about her. I think she learned a long time ago how to tune out unpleasant words or rebukes or scoldings, same thing here.

 

[Plumeria5]

I think that behind that blank stare, her mind is racing, but not about what she is hearing, rather trying to think up new lies or escape routes to get out of this "unfair" situation she finds herself in. I doubt she even listens to much of the evidence, unless someone she knows is on the stand and only then, to see what they are saying about her. I think she learned a long time ago how to tune out unpleasant words or rebukes or scoldings, same thing here.

Or maybe she is thinking, if I only had taken more classes in chemistry I could have gotten away with this a little easier! :innocent:

 

[cluciano63]

Or maybe she is thinking, if I only had taken more classes in chemistry I could have gotten away with this a little easier! :innocent:

That is the least of it...if only she hadn't driven around with her child in the trunk for days...maybe she is thinking "if I only had a brain."

 

[PeteyGirl]

No expert here on body language, just pursuing a thought to a logical conclusion. Body language is hugely automatic. It seems to me that all types of NONverbal language would be the most honest way of conveying what is actually happening inside you.

Following that, we are getting quite reliable information about how Casey's mind works just by watching her face. I feel OK taking her at face value.

It's obvious she does not respond in a conventional way. Her insides operate several steps to the "side". What matters to most people (we take it for granted IOW) does not register on ICA's radar.

I don't think ICA can help it. This was the (very personal) conclusion I reached about my exhusband who is sociopathic. The world impacted him in a different way than it does "normal" people. And I was the last to know. Where I saw companionship, he saw an opportunity to exploit. I don't believe he decided to just BE the way he is. I think his ability to process cause and effect is at about the 18 month old level. I really mean this.

An adult with an 18 month old's capacity to understand cause and effect is going to do what ICA did, what Scott Peterson did, and what my exhusband might have done had I stuck around for any more.

My grandson is 2 years old, and the utter blank look on his face when I am explaining why he must not squeeze the ducklings is understandable (albeit alarming, for the sake of loose ducklings) because he is developmentally incapable of being anything BUT hedonistic. The look on his face when he reached out to do some squeezing was . . . well, evil glee. Pure delight in his power to make something squeak and make Grandma and Mommy come running and emoting .

My exhusband used to toy with me like that, and I swear he'd get the same look on his face. Lookit what *I* can make her do.

I spent seven years (I loved him deeply) EXPLAINING, re-explaining, trying to educate this oblivious man on how to BE NICE to me, how beneficial for him it was to be polite, to speak directly about his needs rather than bully me or manipulate me. I was SO willing to meet his needs, I loved him.

He could not trust me (or anyone). I was devoted and loyal to him 100% until the day I turned him into the cops. I never shunned him when he wanted to "talk" or apologize. I was THERE for him. But he did not trust me because he could not CONNECT to me (or anyone). I proved myself trustworthy over and over and over again, in spite of some very abusive treatment by him. I did not desert him (until I finally did), I stood by him, supported him, accommodated him into depths few codependents are willing to go. And no matter what, he responded to me as if I were his enemy. As if my intention was to destroy him.

Sociopaths don't rely on facts and experience to understand reality. They rely upon WHAT THEY WANT (like an 18 month old) to dictate reality. Everything else flies right over their heads. Thus, the sullen or bored stare of ICA when they aren't talking about HER.

In ICA's world, no one else is real but HER. This isn't "evil", this is a developmental arrest in TODDLERHOOD. A toddler personality in an adult body is an imminent danger to others.

Depending upon the temperament of the arrested person, you can be ripped of for your retirement/savings/homes/assets (like I was) or killed. "You" do not exist as an individual in your own right. You are either a means to an end or an inconvenience that the sociopathic person feels entitled to deal with.

Feeling actual horror at the heartbreaking evidence of what happened to Caylee's precious little body is . . . irrelevant. And boring. What does it have to do with ICA, getting her out of jail and on with her La Bella Vita?

 

[LadyL]

That is the least of it...if only she hadn't driven around with her child in the trunk for days...maybe she is thinking "if I only had a brain."

:floorlaugh:

 

[Just K]

I wish a talented WS member could post a side-by-side collage of screenshots of ICA <WITH JURY PRESENT> versus <WHEN NO JURY IS PRESENT.> The blatant contrast in posture, demeanor, facial expression, energy level, body language, gestures, mood, everything... is like night and day. Unbelievable. What an act.

KC's bizarre lack of normal human reaction is HUGE, and has been a problem for the defense. It clearly paints her as a sociopath. JB has tried to account for it by attributing it to PTSD or a dissociative reaction to having been "abused." ICA has obviously been coached to keep still and keep a straight face in court. He is counting on this tactic, plus keeping out most of her "prior bad acts." This woman is a monster who has left a wake of destruction, despair, and broken hearts behind her, and simply could not care less.

Her DT have had witnesses describe KC's lack of reaction, and her "flat affect," and have pointed out her similar demeanor as she sits there at the defense table "on trial for her life." Wouldn't it be something if the State could petition to introduce new evidence in response to this? Because all this jury has seen is KC's silent, pouty boo-boo face, her "oh no" headshake in response to damning evidence, an oddly raised eyebrow, and a few strategic semi-verklempt moments. The tiny little vulnerable defendant, hands in her lap, frumpy and meek and serious... that is what they have seen.

Can you imagine how eye-opening it would be to show the jury a one- or two- minute video montage of moments captured in court before they are brought in, and once they are safely out of sight? That is when she unleashes the "real" Casey: The animated behavior. The intense rapid nodding and sky-high eyebrow raises, the flashes of anger and disdain and amusement. The toddler-level meltdowns. The jabbing and slicing and expansive gestures with hands and arms. The leaning, the reaching, the poking, the pointing. The come-here finger crooking. The 'I'm in charge' swagger. The flirtatious smile and wide eyes. The giggling. The big grins. The hip-rolling 'I'm a celebrity' strut.

ICA instantly lights up like a malignant Christmas tree outside the presence of the people who will decide her fate. I wish there was some way for them to see that.

Well Said! You summed it up perfectly. And, here is one more thing the jury never gets to see:
Each time a Deputy attempts to escort her, either into or out of the court room, she stops and initiates "just one more" interaction with her DT. She thumbs her nose at all authority. This was most evident today when she and the Hoser displayed such utter disrespect, by speaking, passing notes and making disgusted and bored facial expressions, during the expert testimony about her daughter decomposing inside her car.

On this occasion where she maybe should have had a complete breakdown to show she is heartbroken, instead she joined the class clown in trying to disrupt the class. BUT, she is not heart broken and she does not appear to be at all dissociative. The personality on duty wouldn't necessarily turn themselves on and off just because others come and go from the same space.

 

[QuietStorm]

No expert here on body language, just pursuing a thought to a logical conclusion. Body language is hugely automatic. It seems to me that all types of NONverbal language would be the most honest way of conveying what is actually happening inside you.

Following that, we are getting quite reliable information about how Casey's mind works just by watching her face. I feel OK taking her at face value.

It's obvious she does not respond in a conventional way. Her insides operate several steps to the "side". What matters to most people (we take it for granted IOW) does not register on ICA's radar.

I don't think ICA can help it. This was the (very personal) conclusion I reached about my exhusband who is sociopathic. The world impacted him in a different way than it does "normal" people. And I was the last to know. Where I saw companionship, he saw an opportunity to exploit. I don't believe he decided to just BE the way he is. I think his ability to process cause and effect is at about the 18 month old level. I really mean this.

An adult with an 18 month old's capacity to understand cause and effect is going to do what ICA did, what Scott Peterson did, and what my exhusband might have done had I stuck around for any more.

My grandson is 2 years old, and the utter blank look on his face when I am explaining why he must not squeeze the ducklings is understandable (albeit alarming, for the sake of loose ducklings) because he is developmentally incapable of being anything BUT hedonistic. The look on his face when he reached out to do some squeezing was . . . well, evil glee. Pure delight in his power to make something squeak and make Grandma and Mommy come running and emoting .

My exhusband used to toy with me like that, and I swear he'd get the same look on his face. Lookit what *I* can make her do.

I spent seven years (I loved him deeply) EXPLAINING, re-explaining, trying to educate this oblivious man on how to BE NICE to me, how beneficial for him it was to be polite, to speak directly about his needs rather than bully me or manipulate me. I was SO willing to meet his needs, I loved him.

He could not trust me (or anyone). I was devoted and loyal to him 100% until the day I turned him into the cops. I never shunned him when he wanted to "talk" or apologize. I was THERE for him. But he did not trust me because he could not CONNECT to me (or anyone). I proved myself trustworthy over and over and over again, in spite of some very abusive treatment by him. I did not desert him (until I finally did), I stood by him, supported him, accommodated him into depths few codependents are willing to go. And no matter what, he responded to me as if I were his enemy. As if my intention was to destroy him.

Sociopaths don't rely on facts and experience to understand reality. They rely upon WHAT THEY WANT (like an 18 month old) to dictate reality. Everything else flies right over their heads. Thus, the sullen or bored stare of ICA when they aren't talking about HER.

In ICA's world, no one else is real but HER. This isn't "evil", this is a developmental arrest in TODDLERHOOD. A toddler personality in an adult body is an imminent danger to others.

Depending upon the temperament of the arrested person, you can be ripped of for your retirement/savings/homes/assets (like I was) or killed. "You" do not exist as an individual in your own right. You are either a means to an end or an inconvenience that the sociopathic person feels entitled to deal with.

Feeling actual horror at the heartbreaking evidence of what happened to Caylee's precious little body is . . . irrelevant. And boring. What does it have to do with ICA, getting her out of jail and on with her La Bella Vita?

I'm so sorry you went through that and so glad you finally found the strength to leave. Thank you for sharing and giving your insight into KC. I have already posted about my son having paranoid schizophrenia with psychosis. It's a lifelong struggle with someone I love very much but at times I have to keep him out of my life until he gets back on his meds.

What I didn't share was about his father, whom I believe to be a sociopath. We did not marry, thank goodness, but I loved him for many years and supported him emotionally and physically like you, even when others told me there was something evil about him. I kicked him out when I was pregnant with our second child, my son. I'd always loved his differences as part of him, but those differences were turning physical and I became afraid for my daughter and myself. I can remember one night that we had a disagreement because I was home later than 10 pm as promised. He had my 2 year old at home with him. When I came home late, he was gone and stayed gone til the wee hours of the morning. I was frantic and called everyone, including his mother, to find them. I wanted my daughter home! When they finally returned, I snatched her up, made sure she was alright, and put her to bed. When I came back to where he was, he hadn't move from where he was - standing in the middle of the living room. He was smiling at me, such a sweet smile, letting me come closer to him, thinking everything was going to be OK, that there was a reason after all for all this. While keeping that smile, he hit me hard enough across the face to make me spin, then fall to the floor. He hissed at me, "don't you ever snatch my child from me again." That was the beginning of the end as his evilness got worse. I will never forget that sweet smile, inviting me in closer, like a spider smiling at a fly he hopes will land in his web.

It is that sickening smile that I think of when I watch the videos that KC took of Caylee.

There are similarities between his upbringing and KC's. Both his parents worked and he had siblings. Even though they were barely middle class and lived in the same house all their lives - a tiny little house with barely enough room to turn around in - they were raised to believe they were above every one else, better, smarter, entitled. So entitled. His mother would NEVER believe anything bad about him and when we started having troubles, she defended him to her dying day. His arrogance and inability to emote and have empathy for others is way up there. After me, he had a string of girlfriends that supported him financially and he beat every one of them severely. He had a hard time supporting himself because he had gone to school to be a teacher, of all things, and got fired for hitting a student and other bad behaviors. He's past 60 now and has never been married. He once told me that he loved his mother too much to marry anyone.

IMO, he did not learn how to care about others except for his immediate family started when he was very young, and that continued into his adulthood. If a child isn't taught how to care about others, they can't form empathy for others, I believe. And if the world is there just to give you what you want, then it's fine to beat people up who refuse to give it to you. Or to lie in wait for that fly in the web or to attack people around you who don't believe that their needs should ever be denied.

My ex fought his firing all the way to the supreme court but lost. He will never say he did anything wrong. Not within the school system, not with shoplifting charges, not with domestic violence - nothing, never.

IMO it's that make-believe world that assisted with his sociopathy. I think KC was coddled all her life, told she was beautiful so many times that I think nothing else mattered, as long as she was a 10. Like my ex, she may have grown up in a household where there's nothing expected of you except to be what the parents want. With her, it seems beauty was most important. With him, it was education. And above all else, family loyalty - the belief in Camelot - the absolute belief that you are special to the degree that rules don't apply to you.

 

[QuietStorm]

I wanted to bump this thread. This is disturbing to me. Casey is listening to all this info today about human decomp, it is referrring to her baby. HER BABY ! How can she not be upset ? I am sick over some of the testimony, knowing that Dr. Vass is speaking about little Caylee's decomposing body. Seriously, she is disassociating. How ?? Can meds have this effect ? She is capable of emotion. She LOVED Tony L. How can she turn on and off her emotions, especially when she is listening to the horrors of what happened to Caylee.? But she sheds tears about other issues. Something is not right .

I don't think she loved Tony. She loved the attention, the sex, the feeling of excitement he gave her, the feeling of freedom.

It's the muscles in the face that tighten or loosen to make a smile, a frown, a look of bewilderment, a moment of joy. Some people (charismatics esp) learn to use those muscles to get what they want, to portray the feelings they know they should have but don't.

 

[A_News_Junkie]

You did an AMAZING job! Thanks!

Thanks -- but I forgot to tell you guys that the pics are Day One to Day 10 from the top down. So each row is a day. But you guys are WS'ers so you probably got that! LOL@ME! BTW - floored by the posts in this thread! You guys rock!

 

[jane the dood]

I wish a talented WS member could post a side-by-side collage of screenshots of ICA <WITH JURY PRESENT> versus <WHEN NO JURY IS PRESENT.> The blatant contrast in posture, demeanor, facial expression, energy level, body language, gestures, mood, everything... is like night and day. Unbelievable. What an act.

Well said...couldn't agree more!