GUILTY OH - Elaina Steinfurth, 17 months, Toledo, 2 Jun 2013 - #6

[lonetraveler]

BBM. Very interesting.

I think we're all perplexed by RS. Hostile, aggressive towards TJ and SK, always claiming to know more than is let on but never doing a single thing to shed light in the case. He's got some kind of game going - and the real question is whether its more around trying to optimise the situation to his own advantage - cash in on the 15 seconds of fame, or something more sinister.


I really really wasn't meaning to jump down your throat at all. Welcome again.

JMO but I've always felt that RS knows way more than he makes out. Maybe his daughter told him the whole story. I think so.

 

[krig101]

Oh Krig101, I feel so bad for you. I have been following child cases for many years and know exactly how you feel. There are cases where I have to stand down and leave for a while in order to get my bearings. Don't let any case interfere with your personal life and especially your boys lives, back away. Some of these cases can break your heart and stay and haunt you. It is so hard not to let them enter your heart and start affecting your very life. Don't let this happen to you. Just trying to give some very heartfelt advice.

Awww you are too kind!!! I just have always had a big heart when it comes to kids, especially since I have had my own and know how much love they bring. To see someone throw that away just makes me so sick to my stomach. Or maybe its my upbringing, it was not the greatest, and perhaps that makes my heart weak for children that are not getting the life they deserve from their own mother.

 

[krig101]

JMO but I've always felt that RS knows way more than he makes out. Maybe his daughter told him the whole story. I think so.

I think he knows too......JMO

 

[Moonflowers111]

Correct. That's the dog I'm talking about. She was with us. (I'm President of Justice for Nevaeh). I'm not casting stones, but this was VERY disappointing.

With all due respect Joe, just to clarify, the dog and her trainer, Gail St. John, are not officially part of Justice for Nevaeh, but she called your group and offered her services.

 

[Moonflowers111]

Aired June 21,2013 -

"GRACE: OK. So as you are following your intuition or whatever visions you may have, you have a trained K9, a certified -- your a certified K9 handler -- with you. Tell me, did the cadaver dog hit anywhere?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When you say hit, see, there`s a fine line there. Indicating would be saying for sure, you know, that the dog has come across scent...

GRACE: Did it show interest?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Both dogs showed interest.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1306/21/ng.01.html

Note Gail says "showed interest" not a hit.

 

[Moonflowers111]

"Volunteer group, Justice for Nevea, told police that their own cadaver dog got a hit on the garage, but that lead was never followed. And somehow, the body went undiscovered."

My understanding was Toledo LE was aware the search was happening. It would have been up to Justice4Nevaeh to report the "interest" the dog expressed as Dog Lady was not reporting directly to Toledo LE. (I thought that was done.)

 

[believe09]

With all due respect Joe, just to clarify, the dog and her trainer, Gail St. John, are not officially part of Justice for Nevaeh, but she called your group and offered her services.

Sigh.

 

[Sunshine95]

Regarding the abuse discussion, I think it is relevant to know about AS's history of abuse. Most people who are abused learn from that, become very strong and are very careful to not repeat that behavior. However, most people who are abusive were abused themselves. The relationship with RS has given me the creepy feeling, and I am very curious about what AS was exposed to because it could give us more of an idea of how she treated the children. And to what extent. For example, (I have zero evidence of this and am just thinking hypothetically) if AS was sexually abused or had inappropriate physical boundaries with RS, the chances of her doing the same are higher. If she was never abused in that way, then the chances are close to zero. If the abuse was very psychologically/ emotionally damaging, then the chances of her doing the same are higher...
Although most victims of abuse do not repeat the behavior, it doesn't mean knowing about abuse a potential suspect endured is unimportant. I understand people feeling sensitive when discussing such things, but being abused does increase the chances of becoming abusive. It does not mean it will happen, and it probably won't, but a person is more likely to be abusive if they were abused. Especially when it comes to sexual abuse and incest. It is extremely rare for someone to become a sex abuser if they themselves were not also abused (like practically zero chance.)
That being said, understanding and excusing are very different. I do not think past abuse can ever excuse someone from hurting someone else. But it can help explain why, and what the victim may have experienced. And can help in the healing process for the victim as well. And, hopefully, can inform mental health services, Child protective services, legal decisions, etc...
So... just had to share my thoughts on this as a person who has worked on the mental health side of juvenile corrections, in other words, with kids who have been hurt so badly they hurt others, with some rare exceptions...
Sociopaths, that's a whole 'nother thread

Editing to add: I'm still sending my love and prayers to Elaina's family! Justice for Elaina is coming! Keep focusing on the love you have each shown through this horrific time!

 

[Moonflowers111]

Elaina's website run by her family friend.
https://www.facebook.com/HelpFindElainaSteinfurth

 

[icu nurse]

Regarding the abuse discussion, I think it is relevant to know about AS's history of abuse. Most people who are abused learn from that, become very strong and are very careful to not repeat that behavior. However, most people who are abusive were abused themselves. The relationship with RS has given me the creepy feeling, and I am very curious about what AS was exposed to because it could give us more of an idea of how she treated the children. And to what extent. For example, (I have zero evidence of this and am just thinking hypothetically) if AS was sexually abused or had inappropriate physical boundaries with RS, the chances of her doing the same are higher. If she was never abused in that way, then the chances are close to zero. If the abuse was very psychologically/ emotionally damaging, then the chances of her doing the same are higher...
Although most victims of abuse do not repeat the behavior, it doesn't mean knowing about abuse a potential suspect endured is unimportant. I understand people feeling sensitive when discussing such things, but being abused does increase the chances of becoming abusive. It does not mean it will happen, and it probably won't, but a person is more likely to be abusive if they were abused. Especially when it comes to sexual abuse and incest. It is extremely rare for someone to become a sex abuser if they themselves were not also abused (like practically zero chance.)
That being said, understanding and excusing are very different. I do not think past abuse can ever excuse someone from hurting someone else. But it can help explain why, and what the victim may have experienced. And can help in the healing process for the victim as well. And, hopefully, can inform mental health services, Child protective services, legal decisions, etc...
So... just had to share my thoughts on this as a person who has worked on the mental health side of juvenile corrections, in other words, with kids who have been hurt so badly they hurt others, with some rare exceptions...
Sociopaths, that's a whole 'nother thread

Editing to add: I'm still sending my love and prayers to Elaina's family! Justice for Elaina is coming! Keep focusing on the love you have each shown through this horrific time!

BBM Juvenile offenders of sexual assault have often experienenced a warping of their sexuality and morals regarding sexuality. This is absolutely true.

However, we are NOT discussing a juvenile here - we are speaking of an adult - an adult who has had opportunities and chances to learn and grow and change.

I'm finding it really hard to bite my tongue here, but I will. For Elaina, for the sake of this thread. But not every individual who perpetrates abuse is either a sociopath or a victim. Most are insecure individuals who lack other skills to rationally work through issues and resort to physical and mental dominance to retain power.

It is not at all "healing" in adults at least to hear a person say, when finding out about abuse that they always wondered whether the perpetrator was abused. It totally undermines the healing done to date, places a rationalisation where there should be indignation, and makes the victim question themselves.

Many of the generalisations you have posted are the precise reason why I posted initially. And I understand they extend from your professional experience with juveniles. But we're not talking about the 11 year old boy molesting his young sister because he was made to watch his parents have sex for years. Were talking about an adult who has otherwise been functioning enough to raise one child through the early years.

By all means, postulate theories on the RS /AS dynamic. On what RS may truly be trying to cover for throughout all this. But don't make claims of absolute where there are no tangible links or data to back it up.

There is a high correlation in psychological research on perpetrators of abuse having experienced it themselves. It's far from 100% as you have claimed and the authors of the studies acknowledge the chances of distortion in the data due to the vested interest in making such a claim (ie leniency in legal matters).

 

[curious girl]

I'm pretty much just lurking and reading about this case, but it occured to me that LE may have seen it as more beneficial to the case to have someone tell them exactly where the body was...

They (or "searchers") stepped on cars to see up the rafters, but made no attempt (I'm guessing) to access it or to actually discover what was up there. At lot of officers are familiar with the smell of decomp. I'm not, but I'm sure it gets stronger as you get closer. They knew where to look, but hmm yeah they didn't find it... "too tough to search". I can imagine that interrogation.

This is just my speculation and MOO.

I mean, now he may get a plea for telling, but there's also strong evidence against him. Double edged sword?

 

[ArianeEmory]

I'm pretty much just lurking and reading about this case, but it occured to me that LE may have seen it as more beneficial to the case to have someone tell them exactly where the body was...

They (or "searchers") stepped on cars to see up the rafters, but made no attempt (I'm guessing) to access it or to actually discover what was up there. At lot of officers are familiar with the smell of decomp. I'm not, but I'm sure it gets stronger as you get closer. They knew where to look, but hmm yeah they didn't find it... "too tough to search". I can imagine that interrogation.

This is just my speculation and MOO.

I mean, now he may get a plea for telling, but there's also strong evidence against him. Double edged sword?

I'm not sure if you're suggesting (as some people did when the box was first found) that LE knew Elaina was there the whole time and "waited" for someone to confess. I know people are probably suggesting this because the idea that LE just failed to competently search in the first place is distressing to say the least.

But I just do not buy that any LE department anywhere would leave a body in a situation like that for ANY reason.

--physical evidence deteriorates rapidly, harder to prove cause and manner of death
--anguish of family and loved ones
--increasingly volatile community problems (especially with these "Hatfield & McCoy" families involved)
--lots of time and effort and resources wasted on pointless searches (river dives etc).
--chance of the body being moved unless 24/7 surveillance is in place. (every single day, all day, for months.)

No, I don't buy it. They dropped the ball. They know they did, that was plain by how hostile they were at the press conference. I don't know exactly how, but it sounds like they looked inside the garage, didn't want to deal with the junk pile, and moved on.

It's sad and it's disillusioning, and it might muddy the waters on who is responsible for what, but either way it wouldn't have saved Elaina. :/

(If I misunderstood what you were suggesting, I apologize.)

 

[Moonflowers111]

<modsnip>
Sorry, but I believe I have been respectful from my first post. To me, it seems like the TPD may have "missed" the outcome of the dog search. I am not aware if they inquired about it. Two different groups worked together, it was stated on Nancy what happened during that search by the searcher herself. It was reported as everything found that seemed suspicious and turned in by searchers to the organizers when I was there. Notes and search grids were turned over. Protocol was followed as far as I know and Dog Lady had her own to protect evidence and a possible crime scene from contamination from her perspective. It was agreed if something was found (nothing was) that the person from Justice for Nevaeh who was there (and who I was with) would call it in, the person that got permission for the search. I've already heard grumbling about the garage search and finger pointing starting. That is why I posted. I do not believe I attacked J4N or GSJ and gave both credit for the search. <modsnip> I posted the search times/days for J4N on here and other things I observed. I truly don't know where you are coming from with this.

<modsnip>.

 

[Salem]

~Respectfully snipped and bolded by me~

Regarding the abuse discussion, I think it is relevant to know about AS's history of abuse. Most people who are abused learn from that, become very strong and are very careful to not repeat that behavior. However, most people who are abusive were abused themselves. The relationship with RS has given me the creepy feeling, and I am very curious about what AS was exposed to because it could give us more of an idea of how she treated the children. And to what extent. For example, (I have zero evidence of this and am just thinking hypothetically) if AS was sexually abused or had inappropriate physical boundaries with RS, the chances of her doing the same are higher. If she was never abused in that way, then the chances are close to zero. If the abuse was very psychologically/ emotionally damaging, then the chances of her doing the same are higher...
Although most victims of abuse do not repeat the behavior, it doesn't mean knowing about abuse a potential suspect endured is unimportant. I understand people feeling sensitive when discussing such things, but being abused does increase the chances of becoming abusive. It does not mean it will happen, and it probably won't, but a person is more likely to be abusive if they were abused. Especially when it comes to sexual abuse and incest. It is extremely rare for someone to become a sex abuser if they themselves were not also abused (like practically zero chance.)


Editing to add: I'm still sending my love and prayers to Elaina's family! Justice for Elaina is coming! Keep focusing on the love you have each shown through this horrific time!

Do you have any links to back up these assertions?

Thanks,

Salem

 

[curious girl]

I'm not sure if you're suggesting (as some people did when the box was first found) that LE knew Elaina was there the whole time and "waited" for someone to confess. I know people are probably suggesting this because the idea that LE just failed to competently search in the first place is distressing to say the least.

But I just do not buy that any LE department anywhere would leave a body in a situation like that for ANY reason.

--physical evidence deteriorates rapidly, harder to prove cause and manner of death
--anguish of family and loved ones
--increasingly volatile community problems (especially with these "Hatfield & McCoy" families involved)
--lots of time and effort and resources wasted on pointless searches (river dives etc).
--chance of the body being moved unless 24/7 surveillance is in place. (every single day, all day, for months.)

No, I don't buy it. They dropped the ball. They know they did, that was plain by how hostile they were at the press conference. I don't know exactly how, but it sounds like they looked inside the garage, didn't want to deal with the junk pile, and moved on.

It's sad and it's disillusioning, and it might muddy the waters on who is responsible for what, but either way it wouldn't have saved Elaina. :/

(If I misunderstood what you were suggesting, I apologize.)

That is what I was suggesting. I'm also not completely clear on the timeline as I haven't been following this case for long. Forgot they did river searches.

I was really just throwing this theory out there since I didn't see anyone bring it up as a possibility.

To me not fully searching a place like that is the similar to just leaving a body there. I can't believe no one left with the feeling that she just *might* be in there amongst all that mess Well they went in there at least twice (?) so they must've had some inkling she could be there.

I'm not trying to give LE excuses, but it's just hard for me to believe they walked in there and did not complete a full search. I can't imagine anyone honestly saying the garage was "too tough to search" in a case like this. We're talking about a child not lost keys! They get all kinds of equipment and conduct river searches for goodness sake. That is a horrible excuse IMO especially when the time lapse was months long :facepalm:

I just have to think they had some kind of reasoning other than it was "too tough". Geez I haven't seen the house or garage, but that's odd to me.

All we can hope for is justice, hopefully that isn't too tough.

 

[MyBelle]

IMO, she knew alright! It was even reported that she knew a deal had been made with her son to recover the remains. How could she know he was making a deal, giving up Elaina's whereabouts, and not know herself?

It is very possible her son told her AFTER he made the deal or she read it in the search warrant.

It is also very possible her son is guilty of helping hide the body but I think responsibility is with the child's mother who failed to supply the emotional well-being any child requires.


JMO

 

[wendiesan]

BIUBM,,,,,, is this a parent's worst nightmare? That is a curious thing to say given that the pool was empty but for a few inches of mud and silt IIRC ?
I mean yes a baby getting near a pool is a nightmare, but it's odd to say in a situation where the child is missing and possibly at the time that statement was made, someone or more than someONE already knew Elaina's fate and falling into the pool and accidentally drowning, while horrible, does not seem as horrible as what actually happened.

Agreed. IMO, by the time of the interview more than three people knew what had happened to Elaina and with her little body.

JK was trotting out cliches in an effort to make her actions (running out of the house with her son, urging SK to disappear into the neighbourhood) seem reasonable and necessary rather than the response of two cowards running away from the justifiable anger of a man demanding to be given his daughter. IMO.

I think that in the interview, JK was exaggerating the urgency of checking the pool for Elaina in an attempt to distract the community. She seems to be saying 'Look over here at me and the pool. Don't look over there at the van going down the alley, or my son throwing up in the street. Look how much I cared about that child by running to the pool and the garage.'

A child somehow toddling around piles of junk on a filthy floor, finding her way to an unprotected pool, falling in, and then suffocating in a few inches of scum and mud would be hard to believe, yet is remotely possible. It would be tragic, but understandable. Denying medical help to an injured child, lying about her death, hiding her body from her father, lying to the community, emotionally torturing her family--that's beyond understanding.

So, you're right, SCHMAE. This wasn't a parent's worst nightmare. It's been a three month long experience in horror that still isn't over for TJ, TS Sr, FM, CC, and the many people who knew and loved Elaina.

Justice For Elaina.

 

[Tulessa]

Regarding the abuse discussion, I think it is relevant to know about AS's history of abuse. Most people who are abused learn from that, become very strong and are very careful to not repeat that behavior. However, most people who are abusive were abused themselves. The relationship with RS has given me the creepy feeling, and I am very curious about what AS was exposed to because it could give us more of an idea of how she treated the children. And to what extent. For example, (I have zero evidence of this and am just thinking hypothetically) if AS was sexually abused or had inappropriate physical boundaries with RS, the chances of her doing the same are higher. If she was never abused in that way, then the chances are close to zero. If the abuse was very psychologically/ emotionally damaging, then the chances of her doing the same are higher...
Although most victims of abuse do not repeat the behavior, it doesn't mean knowing about abuse a potential suspect endured is unimportant. I understand people feeling sensitive when discussing such things, but being abused does increase the chances of becoming abusive. It does not mean it will happen, and it probably won't, but a person is more likely to be abusive if they were abused. Especially when it comes to sexual abuse and incest. It is extremely rare for someone to become a sex abuser if they themselves were not also abused (like practically zero chance.)
That being said, understanding and excusing are very different. I do not think past abuse can ever excuse someone from hurting someone else. But it can help explain why, and what the victim may have experienced. And can help in the healing process for the victim as well. And, hopefully, can inform mental health services, Child protective services, legal decisions, etc...
So... just had to share my thoughts on this as a person who has worked on the mental health side of juvenile corrections, in other words, with kids who have been hurt so badly they hurt others, with some rare exceptions...
Sociopaths, that's a whole 'nother thread

Editing to add: I'm still sending my love and prayers to Elaina's family! Justice for Elaina is coming! Keep focusing on the love you have each shown through this horrific time!

The only abuse I'm aware of is physical. Do you know something we don't, with links to support it? TIA.:seeya:

 

[sophiebelle]

I think when you expose your children to horrid, nasty living conditions and unsavory people, that is a form of abuse. We saw that on TV and we heard it from grandfather. I also felt like sister was saying AS was not a stellar mom when she was talking about she couldn't stay at her dad's because she couldn't smoke in the house. Nobody that I saw has told what a wonderful mother AS was.

 

[ontariolynn]

I think when you expose your children to horrid, nasty living conditions and unsavory people, that is a form of abuse. We saw that on TV and we heard it from grandfather. I also felt like sister was saying AS was not a stellar mom when she was talking about she couldn't stay at her dad's because she couldn't smoke in the house. Nobody that I saw has told what a wonderful mother AS was.

I do not buy the part about smoking in the house as the reason why she did not stay there, yes I believe that her step father did not want smoking in the house but she could have gone out side and had a cigarette in his backyard
or in the front away from the front door, so it was not blowing inside, she needed and wanted drugs, that is the bottom line, and then everything fell apart, we still do not know exactly how the little girl died, but I do know, or at least I think I know from some kind of neglect. Whether she was shaken, hit, thrown, something caused her death by either her mother or SK, and the mother just covered it up, I am referring to Julie.