OR - Kyron Horman, 7 yo Second grader, Portland, 4 June 2010 - Part #14

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Someone on here posted that Oregon has an odd history of having alot of criminals/missing persons. That I have no opinion on because I just don't live there or haven't heard cases from there over the years...

THis is TOTALLY my opinion and not based on stats, but does anyone else feel like FLORIDA has a terrible rep for having lots of child abductions/murders and a high count of sex offenders??

I'm not bashing Florida or anything, I'm just making a statement based on media cases, etc...
I have a friend who studied criminal justice in the Pacific Northwest, and I asked her about this once. This is what she said she remembered from her classes [paraphrased by me]:

The Pacific Northwest has statistically more than its share of serial killers, etc., because of several things:

1. Highly transient population: I don't mean that "transients/hobos" are more likely to commit a crime. What I mean is that Seattle, Portland, etc., are considered very desirable places to live, with a high quality of life. So you get a lot of people moving there from other places. (There are some cities where it's rare to meet someone who was born and bred there.) When you have a place with a lot of strangers moving in and out, without life-long family ties there, it's easy for a stranger to get "lost" in the crowd and go undiscovered for a longer time. It's easier to be "anonymous." Also, the climate is relatively mild year-round, so you also get a lot more people who do fit the "hobo" definition of "transient." A homeless person can't survive a midwestern winter as easily as a winter in Seattle or Portland. I'm not saying that homeless are more likely to commit crimes, but this does mean that someone who acts oddly or suspiciously is more likely to be dismissed or overlooked on the streets of Portland than on the streets of, say, Butte, Montana.

There are also a lot of military bases in the PNW, which adds to the "strangers come and go" factor.

2. Culture: the Pacific Northwest cultivates a kind of "individualistic" air, in the same way that Austin, Texas, does. There are some places where being an odd duck is embraced as part of the ethos. This also contributes to the tendency to overlook someone who might appear "slightly off" or "suspicious."

The Pacific Northwest also has a higher concentration of "outdoorsy" people and hunters. Access to things like 4-wheel drive trucks with gun racks (outside of the larger cities, at least), or having the alibi that a ranger has found you out in the middle of nowhere with a shovel because you're "roughing it" is more likely to pass muster in the Pacific Northwest. After all, communing with the wilderness is the whole reason a lot of people move there. I'm not saying that hunters are more likely to kill; what I'm saying is that it's easy to say, "I'm camping/hunting/fishing/whatever" as a reason to go to or be in a remote area, or to have the kind of equipment that could also be used for killing and disposing of humans. People camp in the redwoods; they don't camp in a soybean field or a desert.

3. Geography: Without being too grisly, there are lots of places to hide bodies in the Pacific Northwest--you don't have to go too far to find someplace that is rugged enough to hide a body, often to be undetected for years, if not forever. (Just reading about the blackberry brambles is enough to convince me of this.) Additionally, animal activity due to wild areas close by, as well as how wet the climate is, means that evidence will decompose more quickly than someplace else. Plus, there are a lot of bodies of water nearby for evidence disposal.

4: Economy: The Pacific Northwest has a high immigrant population. This means that there's a proportionately higher level of low-paying, entry level jobs. For someone who is trying to fly under the radar and not leave a paper trail--or who has a criminal history already--these is how someone on the fringes of society supports himself. Those are the kinds of jobs that have "faceless" employees--no trail of credit history, mortgages, college transcripts, professional certification, professional standing and recognition, business ownership, etc.--they're the kinds of jobs that just want a body to fill a space behind a counter, and they could care less who you are inside. But ironically, you often have more contact with the public than you do in a more specialized, highly skilled job like "research scientist." I would imagine that's exactly that "just looking for a warm body" kind of jobs are exactly what someone hoping to remain unnoticed would want. There are exceptions, of course (John Wayne Gacy, for example). But if you're tracing a missing housewife, you're going to remember if a college professor was acting weird, or if someone in her literature discussion group was absent that day. Nobody's going to notice or remember that the frycook at the nearby McDonald's was shifty-eyed that day when she dashed in there for lunch.

Pretty much all of these factors apply to Florida, as well:

Transient population (snow birds, service-industry workers, immigrants, spring breakers, etc.). Plus, there's a lot of agriculture, so there's a lot of seasonal farm workers coming in and out. It can often feel rare to meet a native Floridian.

Culture: Florida is also "outdoorsy," and as part of the southeast, has a prevalent "gun rack" atmosphere, and therefore, easier to have a built-in alibi and/or reason to have weapons or go "camping" and disappear for a few days. Also, people are more likely to be outdoors in Florida through much of the year, as they are in the PNW, and this means more access to victims.

Geography: Florida also has tracts of wilderness (and bodies of water) handy, high animal and insect activity, and a very wet climate.

Economy: modern Florida is pretty much all service-industry jobs--it's all about the theme parks and beaches, which means lots of low-qualification/low references needed jobs; these are the only jobs you're likely to get if you're a RSO. Zoning laws in Florida also mean that there are more trailer parks, which may be attractive to registered sex offenders because they're cheap to live in, and easy to put in an unincorporated area if you're bound by a "so many feet away from a church or school" restriction. Other states have much stricter zoning laws.

All of these things relate to California, as well. Plus, California just has a huge population, comparatively--as does Florida. (No politician ever crosses his fingers that he gets the crucial New Mexico or Wyoming vote on election night.) So, just based on numbers and probability, you're going to get more crime. And perhaps you're more likely to go undiscovered for a longer time because of the "larger population=easier to be anonymous" factor. Of course, John Wayne Gacy and Jeffrey Dahmer kind of mess with my "We don't hold with no serial killin' in flyover country" theory. But they were both in cities. In a small rural area like I live in, everyone will gawk and point at, "OMG, that's that creepy Berglund kid that got caught peeping in granny's window." Not that we don't have rape and murder in rural areas. But to both continue AND escalate criminal behavior for a longer time undetected, it's easier to do that in a big city. A lot of the population of midwestern states is spread out over a lot of small towns that aren't that far down the road from each other. But California, Washington, Oregon, and Florida have very dense population centers surrounded by rugged natural areas. So the set-up is just different, and more conducive to a longer criminal career, maybe.

So, it's not your imagination that the PNW and Florida seem to have a statistically higher rate of certain kinds of crimes. Why not other places? New York City also has lots of strangers and is easy to be "anonymous" in--but there aren't huge tracts of wilderness nearby to dispose of bodies. And it would draw attention to be driving around NYC with a rifle and camping gear, or walking around with a shovel. Or the chains and concrete shoes you need if you DO want to make a body disappear in NYC.

Maine has an "individualistic" and outdoorsy atmosphere, and appropriate geography--but not a highly transient or large population. Alaska does have the individualistic and hunter/trapper atmosphere, plus a highly transient population--but the weather isn't conducive to being outside kidnapping and disposing of bodies for much of the year.

West Texas and New Mexico have a fairly ingrained "gun rack" culture--but while bodies can and do go undiscovered in the desert, it's harder to explain disappearing into the desert for days while you dismember someone. It's too dangerous to try to survive in the desert (outside of designated camping areas) for such a thing to go unnoticed. Unless you're a survivalist--and they have their own agenda. Same thing goes for Las Vegas--it should be a serial killer's paradise, what with the highly transient population and people "off their guard" because they're on vacation. But nobody wants to dig a grave in 112-degree temperatures, and people would know you were up to something, since you don't really go out into the desert with a rifle and a shovel to "Commune with nature" in the same way as in a forest (because people who do that usually dehydrate and die). Plus, bodies don't decay very quickly in the desert--they dry out and mummify, instead, which leaves more evidence than in the PNW and Florida. In the midwest, we have enough heat and humidity and insect activity to destroy a body--but not as many places to hide them for the needed amount of time. Every so often a body will show up in a cornfield--but in that case, the chances of discovery too soon are great, because of harvest time. A body won't likely go for years without being found; at most, it will be within one planting-and-harvesting cycle when the farmer finds the evidence. A place like Minnesota has plenty of lakes to dispose of evidence, but only in the summer--lakes are iced over in the winter and the ground is too frozen to dig, and if you hide a body in a snowbank, it's going to be discovered by spring (and snow is a good insulator--evidence will likely still be there).

Of course, no place is free from crime, and the #1 danger factor--that you're far more likely to be hurt by someone you know--isn't influenced by any of the above factors.

*Sorry for rambling--this is something I've thought about quite a bit.
 
God bless these searchers for doing what they do! What a tough job.
 
When I was reading about missing children the other day it seemed like more of them were from Florida than anywhere else except maybe California, which has a huge population). I wonder if Florida police or media handle the publication of missing children differently than other states.


Someone on here posted that Oregon has an odd history of having alot of criminals/missing persons. That I have no opinion on because I just don't live there or haven't heard cases from there over the years...

THis is TOTALLY my opinion and not based on stats, but does anyone else feel like FLORIDA has a terrible rep for having lots of child abductions/murders and a high count of sex offenders??

I'm not bashing Florida or anything, I'm just making a statement based on media cases, etc...
 
Good morning!

Re: the suicidal man on I-84. This is just an observation, having lived in Portland most of my life, but there is a psychological "Great Wall" between East and West Portland. The divider is the Willamette River. I've lived on both sides of the river, and they could be different countries for how different the cultures are. My strong opinion is that whomever the perp is lives very close to the school, and if he/she became suicidal and fled, that person would go West, not East. JMHO
 
I guess the only thing that keeps going through my head is why would a perp pick a school to take a victim. I realize there are lots of kids, easy targets, etc...but why INSIDE the school? It seems to make very little sense.

Most stranger abductions are crimes of opportunity. This would have to have been planned (IMO). If it was planned ahead of time, why pick that venue? Why not wait until the kids were outside? at recess? walking home? I mean, most schools have adults popping in and out of hallways all the time: teachers, custodians, secretaries. It's not the "safest" place to snatch a child. You could get caught at any moment.

I'm just trying to get in the head of someone who would do this kind of thing....would they really pick the inside of school??? I'm having trouble wrapping my brain around that.

I think most of us agree with you and that is why many people do not believe that it is completely random but rather someone who was familiar with the environment.
 
Can we just stick to talking about KYRON. These threads are goin fast enough as it is!!
 
I have a question for some of the earlier reports. Maybe it was on the SM's facebook, but wasn't the bio mom coming to get Kyron for the weekend? I thought I read the SM emailed or posted to facebook, about 1pm that day, the bio mom could leave now to pick up Kyron that afternoon?

Anyone remember the details about the visitation for that weekend? Thanks!
 
So sad to be back from the weekend to see that they are no closer to finding Kyron. I hate this case. I hate that such a precious child just disappeared and that no one seems to have any clue where he is. I hate that he disappeared from somewhere he should have been 100% safe.

:( :( :(
 
Rather than risk taking this thread off track, here's a new thread to discuss crime areas in general: Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Bumping up. Stay on track everyone!

websleuthstrain.jpg
 
Question:

Where were they searching when the LE announced they would have this "wrapped up" by the end of the week?
 
MOUSE:

THANK YOU! Thank you for that very clear explanation. Makes sense. Thanks to your friend as well.

Yes, I HATE this case too! I hate that poor little Kyron suffered and his family will endure a lifetime of suffering too. I say this because the outcome of this case does not look good. I feel that we are now dealing with an abduction/murder :( My heart is aching for Kyron, his family, and all the children and their families who have been dealt the same fate...
 
This may be a mystery, but does anyone know why there would be LE officers flanking the family on the Sunday PC, and not the Friday one?
 
"Despite scaling back the search, Staton said the sheriff's office "won't cease in dedicating resources to finding Kyron."

"They don't believe he wandered off by himself," Jensen said. "That is oen reason why you see them kind of scaling back on the big search effort."

C.W. Jensen, a former Portland police captain, has said the case is likely not a stranger-to-stranger abduction. He said it could be some time before authorities release any information about a suspect or a person of interest.

Link to above story: http://www.kptv.com/news/23886542/detail.html

______________________________________________________________
From an ABC story:

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Media/kyron-horman-search-now-criminal-investigation/story?id=10903721&page=3

"Kyron was last seen by his stepmother, walking toward his Skyline Elementary School classroom after he had proudly displayed his science fair project on tree frogs."
 
I have a question for some of the earlier reports. Maybe it was on the SM's facebook, but wasn't the bio mom coming to get Kyron for the weekend? I thought I read the SM emailed or posted to facebook, about 1pm that day, the bio mom could leave now to pick up Kyron that afternoon?

Anyone remember the details about the visitation for that weekend? Thanks!

Yes, it was Desiree's weekend to have Kyron. I spoke yesterday with one of the neighbors who confirmed this. I cannot confirm that Desiree left at 1pm (or thereabouts), but I know it was her weekend to have Kyron.
 
I totally agree, PDXMom. When I read the article posted about this guy with the grey truck, I felt like there was very little likelihood this guy was connected to Kyron. He lives in Gresham, and this chase went from Troutdale to the 84. At no point was he near the section of Hwy 30 where the LE were looking for Kyron, and this was definitely nowhere near where the grey pickup was spotted.

Why this guy from Gresham would choose a small school out in the hills where everyone knows everybody is beyond me unless there is a relationship between him and someone at that school.

Also, to non Portlanders, there are a lot of mentally ill people here. We have a horrible joblessness rate right now, and there are lots of people who cannot afford to take their meds, or get counseling, or otherwise get treated for mental illness. This is not really that strange a case here. What's strange is that this guy wasn't shot by the police! Portland PD exercised a lot of restraint in this case, which is the ONLY surprising thing about it, in my opinion.

Good morning!

Re: the suicidal man on I-84. This is just an observation, having lived in Portland most of my life, but there is a psychological "Great Wall" between East and West Portland. The divider is the Willamette River. I've lived on both sides of the river, and they could be different countries for how different the cultures are. My strong opinion is that whomever the perp is lives very close to the school, and if he/she became suicidal and fled, that person would go West, not East. JMHO
 
Will the family still have 24/7 LE living with them? How long is this normally done? Until a body is found or a perp arrested?
 
Local update on Kyron right now. They are talking about the reward, the case being reclassified, and that we don't know why they reclassified the case. Search crews from my area have headed home, they said.

:( :( :(

but we do know why it is now a criminal investigation. LE said because it it the natural progression in a case like this and, as the SAR leader said, they now know where Kyron is not (by the school from wondering off and getting lost).
 
Can we just stick to talking about KYRON. These threads are goin fast enough as it is!!

Thank you! Kimster posted a link to a thread to talk about Florida and other states regarding crime, and perhaps someone could start a thread in Crimes in the News about the suicide guy in the truck.

Kyron Horman

Pic23.jpg
 
Will the family still have 24/7 LE living with them? How long is this normally done? Until a body is found or a perp arrested?

I imagine that if there is a ransom situation, they would stay there. That, or if there was anything more they could glean from the family's interactions with others. Otherwise, the switch in the status to "criminal investigation" as the natural progression would indicate a longer term approach. Thus, LE would move out of the house. Just a guess though.
 
I feel so bad for this family; I hope that Kyron will come home soon.

Do we know if the school was searched? Most schools have security camera’s do we know if he was seen leaving the school. If something happened to him, I think he was still at the school while police were searching. He may be still at the school; I hope not, I hope he is alive and well.

Last year a woman disappeared at a high rise office building. They had video of her entering the building but not leaving. They found her later in the building dead.

I hope Kyron is still alive, but the school should be searched from top to bottom.
 
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