OR - Militia members occupy federal building in Oregon after protest #2

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:facepalm:

I know. I know.

I'm trying to think seeing him under his tarp was a memory of him being himself, talking about loving the sun on his face and the wind in his hair and maybe the blue squares are to remember what he said that night, especially considering that was when he made his speech about dying rather than being sent to a concrete box. If you look at it that way he really did die the way he wanted to. I guess that's a good thing.

But I think it's more cheese and when he threatened the government in front of the whole world. The night he was on national TV and made them all famous.
 
It would be great if there was some sort of 'Tiger Beat' magazine so that people could get posters of and interviews with the luminaries of this standoff. I'd imagine that their posters would be wallpaper for most adolescent girls (oh, and boys) all across the country. And the interviews -- they'd be terrific.

Q: What's your favorite word?
A1: Huh.
A2: Guns.
A3: Word?

Q: Why are you here?
A1: Something to do with the constitution.
A2: I don't think it's right that I should have to pay for land or anything else.
A3: I wish I knew.

Q: If you could have one wish right now, what would it be?
A1: I'd like to jump into a time machine that was set for some time before I entered this place/situation.
A2: I'd like to jump into a time machine that was set for some time before I entered this place/situation.
A3: I'd have eleventeen guns, each of which was super big, and I'd have a big bowl of chips, and I'd be able to, well, I don't know, maybe jump into a time machine that was set for some time before I entered this place/situation.
 
I know. I know.

I'm trying to think seeing him under his tarp was a memory of him being himself, talking about loving the sun on his face and the wind in his hair and maybe the blue squares are to remember what he said that night, especially considering that was when he made his speech about dying rather than being sent to a concrete box. If you look at it that way he really did die the way he wanted to. I guess that's a good thing.

But I think it's more cheese and when he threatened the government in front of the whole world. The night he was on national TV and made them all famous.

Ok. But for ALL the things he did in his actual life, this is how they chose to remember him? Tarp Man - the martyr!

How tragic. And false.
 
Ok. But for ALL the things he did in his actual life, this is how they chose to remember him? Tarp Man - the martyr!

How tragic. And false.

Bears repeating, IMO:

Every girl crazy 'bout a tarp dressed man.
 
At
At the end of January, the Oregon Natural Desert Association put out a call for volunteers interested in doing environmental restoration at the refuge after the occupation is over. In just a week, more than 600 people from all over the Northwest have signed up.
http://www.opb.org/news/series/burn...ers-restore-malheur-refuge-occupation-oregon/

I hope they also get volunteers to help with restoration of Native American items as well as cataloging those that have been trampled on. I believe that area is rich in artifacts underfoot, since they recruit experienced summer volunteers to help with archaeological surveys.
 
I hope they also get volunteers to help with restoration of Native American items as well as cataloging those that have been trampled on. I believe that area is rich in artifacts underfoot, since they recruit experienced summer volunteers to help with archaeological surveys.

I hear you, but I think the priority, irrespective of cost, is rescuing the artifacts and their context, and restoring the site. And so, I think that the most judicious course of action would be to have the best qualified experts be paid appropriately to work on restoring the site, and that all of the costs of doing so should be incurred by those who were responsible for the damage and destruction. I think that's only fair and just.
 
Guy Finicum said he came away from that meeting believing that LaVoy Finicum was sincerely trying to help people in Harney County.

“He told me, as long as there is one person up here that says ‘please stay and help me,’ I won’t come home. And how could I ask him to do otherwise?” he said. He said his brother was deeply motivated by his faith in God.
http://www.opb.org/news/series/burn...bers-him-as-a-man-driven-by-family-and-faith/

What about democracy then? What about the voice of the people who are harmed by the occupation? What about the people who are asking them to please go home?


A group of local people on Facebook was discussing how to voice their support for law enforcement, said Melissa Alfstad, one of the group's members. They decided that a billboard would be a good way to do that.

When one of them called Meadow Outdoor, the company offered to put up two billboards for free, Alfstad said.
http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/02/militia_group_backs_down_billb.html
A militia group that had previously converged on Burns by the dozens had planned to shake things up Saturday, but backed down.

A Facebook post of BJ Soper, a founding member of the Pacific Patriots Network, said the group was going to escort the holdouts from the refuge. But Soper learned that the occupiers said they were resigned to die and that attempts to remove them would be met by force.

Soper said he didn't want to put the volunteers in harm's way.
What are you going to do with people who are "resigned to die"?
 
A bit about Finicum's history:
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2016/02/lavoy_finicum_rancher_killed_i.html

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/..._order.html#incart_most-read_portland_article
Cavalier's lawyer, Todd Bofferding, portrayed Cavalier as a man who has matured since the 1990s, when he had multiple criminal convictions and didn't comply with probation conditions.

"He's a different man now. He's older. He's matured. He's learned from his errors,'' Bofferding told the court.

Cavalier was arrested on Jan. 11 by Buckeye police in Arizona, stopped riding in a car with a firearm, according to federal documents. He's accused of giving a false name and Social Security number to police, Knight said. A convicted felon, Cavalier isn't supposed to possess guns or be around them, the prosecutor said.

Bofferding said the federal government got the account wrong. Cavalier was a passenger in the vehicle and the gun belonged to someone else. He said Cavalier accidentally mixed up two numbers of his Social Security number but didn't intend to deceive anyone.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...fghanistan-Iraq-boost-combat-credentials.html

He certainly gets photographed with guns a lot.

He's a changed man, insofar as now he is above the law.

The tough guy wanted to live with Mom:

Bofferding urged the court to allow Cavalier to live with his mother in Arizona. He said his client, whose neck and arms are covered with tattoos, could find work as a tattoo artist since he has his own tools. He downplayed concerns about Cavalier's aliases, saying "Booda Bear'' is a nickname that his friends call him.
 
I am an American living in a foreign country where many tourists come because of the beauty. I think probably they all think we are insane. The guns astound them. And the certain party candidates running for Pres.

The US is a laughing stock.

I was afraid of that. :(
 
The sure way to get LaVoy to do something was to tell him he couldn't do something," his brother Jody Finicum said, adding later, "I think most of us here know what he thought about his country: Responsibility is the cross free men must bear."

http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/n...lled-oregon-standoff-pleads-independent-probe

The first part didn't evoke the image of a responsible man as much as the image of a three year old. Just because someone tells you that you can't do an armed standoff, you don't have to do one. Free men have the choice.

Friend Applegate:
"He didn't mean to die. He had obviously lots of friends and family and other things to think about. So, no, I don't think he was a martyr. I think he died for his cause because he was willing to do that just to protect the people in the truck at that point."

I don't see his actions as protecting the people in the truck. If he surrendered peacefully at the first stop, that would have protected the others in the truck. Getting on a chase, driving in the snow bank in the other roadblock and getting into an armed altercation with LE endangered the others too.
 
Les Zaitz did an interview with Shawna Cox on Friday morning before the judge said she could attend the funeral. Good interview, fills in some holes.

30 minutes of chaos: Witness details events of Finicum shooting

http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-st...es_of_chaos_witness_de.html#incart_river_home

“The FBI video isn't clear about whether any round, lethal or nonlethal, was fired. Law enforcement sources said initial reports from the scene didn't account for any shot at that point. Oregon State Police and the FBI were involved in the operation.

Payne told the group the police "mean business" and stepped out of the pickup, shouting at officers that there were women inside. He was soon in police custody, while Finicum yelled at police that he wanted to go see the sheriff, referring to Palmer.

"LaVoy put one hand out the window. He had one hand on the steering wheel," Cox said. "He can see them in the rearview mirror. I know he can see the laser. He said, 'Go ahead and shoot me.'" He repeated that they had a meeting with the sheriff.

Finicum told the women to get out if they wanted to, but Sharp was terrified of being shot. Cox said her motherly instinct took over and she chose to stay to protect Sharp.

Cox and Ryan Bundy tried calling for help on their cellphones. Cox dialed an Josephine County leader of the Oath Keepers, but they had lost cell service.

Then, Finicum instructed all of them to "get down" and he "drops it into gear and takes off," Cox said.

Cox and Ryan Bundy started recording, Cox on her camera and Bundy on his cellphone.

"We knew our best weapons were our cameras," Cox said.”​
 
Cox and Ryan Bundy tried calling for help on their cellphones. Cox dialed an Josephine County leader of the Oath Keepers, but they had lost cell service.

What did she expect the oath keeper to do?
 
Good really long article:

RIGHT-WING EXTREMISTS ARE A BIGGER THREAT TO AMERICA THAN ISIS
By Kurt Eichenwald On 2/4/16 AT 6:02 AM
Newsweek Magazine

Cover Story February 12, 2016 Issue

http://www.newsweek.com/2016/02/12/...ger-threat-america-isis-jihadists-422743.html

a tiny snippet

“Law enforcement agencies in the United States consider anti-government violent extremists, not radicalized Muslims, to be the most severe threat of political violence that they face,” the Triangle Center on Terrorism and Homeland Security reported this past June, based on surveys of 382 law enforcement groups.

The problem is getting worse, although few outside of law enforcement know it. Multiple confidential sources notified the FBI last year that militia members have been conducting surveillance on Muslim schools, community centers and mosques in nine states for what one informant described as “operational purposes.” Informants also notified federal law enforcement that Mississippi militia extremists discussed kidnapping and beheading a Muslim, then posting a video of the decapitation on the Internet. The FBI also learned that right-wing extremists have created bogus law enforcement and diplomatic identifications, not because these radicals want to pretend to be police and ambassadors, but because they believe they hold those positions in a government they have created within the United States.

The unusual—and often daffy—world view of some right-wing extremists was on daily display during the January armed takeover of federal facilities at the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge in Oregon. Expressing dismay that two ranchers convicted of arson were ordered to serve out the remainder of their mandatory minimum prison sentences, members of various militia groups occupied a building at the wildlife refuge, declaring their willingness to fight the government and, if necessary, die for their cause. They proclaimed that the federal government was tyrannical, that the Constitution is under siege.

The Malheur occupiers were belittled on late night talk shows and social media as “y’all-Qaeda” and “yee-haw-dists,” but what was unfolding in Oregon wasn’t funny—it was frightening. These people speak of martyrdom, bloodbaths and killings, sentiments that can be heard on any Islamist recruitment video. And when law enforcement finally took action on January 26 in a mass arrest, one of the militia members, Robert “LaVoy” Finicum—who had proclaimed he would rather die than go to jail—was shot dead.”

*

“Who are these right-wing militants? And what makes them believe Americans have to engage in armed combat with their own government rather than vote, kill their fellow citizens rather than tolerate differences, blow up buildings rather than just get a job? Billions of words have been written and spoken on violent Islamic extremists. The time has come to do the same for the good old-fashioned Americans who may pose the greatest threat to us all.”​
 
Good really long article:

RIGHT-WING EXTREMISTS ARE A BIGGER THREAT TO AMERICA THAN ISIS
By Kurt Eichenwald On 2/4/16 AT 6:02 AM
Newsweek Magazine

Cover Story February 12, 2016 Issue

http://www.newsweek.com/2016/02/12/...ger-threat-america-isis-jihadists-422743.html

a tiny snippet

“Law enforcement agencies in the United States consider anti-government violent extremists, not radicalized Muslims, to be the most severe threat of political violence that they face,” the Triangle Center on Terrorism and Homeland Security reported this past June, based on surveys of 382 law enforcement groups.

The problem is getting worse, although few outside of law enforcement know it. Multiple confidential sources notified the FBI last year that militia members have been conducting surveillance on Muslim schools, community centers and mosques in nine states for what one informant described as “operational purposes.” Informants also notified federal law enforcement that Mississippi militia extremists discussed kidnapping and beheading a Muslim, then posting a video of the decapitation on the Internet. The FBI also learned that right-wing extremists have created bogus law enforcement and diplomatic identifications, not because these radicals want to pretend to be police and ambassadors, but because they believe they hold those positions in a government they have created within the United States.

The unusual—and often daffy—world view of some right-wing extremists was on daily display during the January armed takeover of federal facilities at the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge in Oregon. Expressing dismay that two ranchers convicted of arson were ordered to serve out the remainder of their mandatory minimum prison sentences, members of various militia groups occupied a building at the wildlife refuge, declaring their willingness to fight the government and, if necessary, die for their cause. They proclaimed that the federal government was tyrannical, that the Constitution is under siege.

The Malheur occupiers were belittled on late night talk shows and social media as “y’all-Qaeda” and “yee-haw-dists,” but what was unfolding in Oregon wasn’t funny—it was frightening. These people speak of martyrdom, bloodbaths and killings, sentiments that can be heard on any Islamist recruitment video. And when law enforcement finally took action on January 26 in a mass arrest, one of the militia members, Robert “LaVoy” Finicum—who had proclaimed he would rather die than go to jail—was shot dead.”

*

“Who are these right-wing militants? And what makes them believe Americans have to engage in armed combat with their own government rather than vote, kill their fellow citizens rather than tolerate differences, blow up buildings rather than just get a job? Billions of words have been written and spoken on violent Islamic extremists. The time has come to do the same for the good old-fashioned Americans who may pose the greatest threat to us all.”​

Maybe I was saved by a convenient computer interruption or the Lord's will, but my last lengthy post vanished. These right wing Moran's are the greatest threat for everyone. It doesn't matter what religion or color, armed ignorant people are always a hazard. It can be a knife, gun, keyboard, or mouth. I'll remain a mostly unarmed extremist, I'll shoot off my mouth for sensibility and peace. Sorry that's about as combative as I'll get.. full auto keyboard.
 
Good really long article:

RIGHT-WING EXTREMISTS ARE A BIGGER THREAT TO AMERICA THAN ISIS
By Kurt Eichenwald On 2/4/16 AT 6:02 AM
Newsweek Magazine

Cover Story February 12, 2016 Issue

http://www.newsweek.com/2016/02/12/...ger-threat-america-isis-jihadists-422743.html

a tiny snippet

“Law enforcement agencies in the United States consider anti-government violent extremists, not radicalized Muslims, to be the most severe threat of political violence that they face,” the Triangle Center on Terrorism and Homeland Security reported this past June, based on surveys of 382 law enforcement groups.
...
“Who are these right-wing militants? And what makes them believe Americans have to engage in armed combat with their own government rather than vote, kill their fellow citizens rather than tolerate differences, blow up buildings rather than just get a job? Billions of words have been written and spoken on violent Islamic extremists. The time has come to do the same for the good old-fashioned Americans who may pose the greatest threat to us all.”​

RSBM

Where do we even start? Much like with Islamic militants or white supremacists you can't just tell by looking, unless they're wearing IIIer hats or flying the Don't Tread of Me flag. I know a few anti-government right-wingers and until we got deep into conversation I would never have ever guessed they shared those beliefs.

Like with all hate groups I'm convinced it starts with fear.

In 1988 the Metzgers had to pay 12million to the family of a man his white supremacist followers had killed. So that stopped ONE man. Many others stepped up, and in the internet era how could we ever track down and stop the propaganda that spreads the fear and hate? He represented one specific (and possibly isolated) group. I couldn't even attempt to guess how many Patriot, IIIer, and militia groups on on Facebook.
 
Maybe I was saved by a convenient computer interruption or the Lord's will, but my last lengthy post vanished. These right wing Moran's are the greatest threat for everyone. It doesn't matter what religion or color, armed ignorant people are always a hazard. It can be a knife, gun, keyboard, or mouth. I'll remain a mostly unarmed extremist, I'll shoot off my mouth for sensibility and peace. Sorry that's about as combative as I'll get.. full auto keyboard.

Moran's. You slay me.
 
What's really disturbing about the Newsweek article is how many of the commenters call it BS.
 
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