PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #12

[J. J. in Phila]

It would surprise me greatly if Sandusky personally killed RFG. Sandusky isn't the sharpest tool in the drawer, the possibility that he got RFG in a position to murder him and then exhibited the presence of mind to hide/bury the body is ludicrous.

Sandusky was first in his class as an undergraduate, and has a master's degree.

I've looked at the TSM bylaws, and they are the some one the best I've ever seen. They are substantially better than most of the bylaws I've seen that are drafted by attorneys. To a job that good, you basically need a professional that is experienced in writing bylaws (and coming from me, that is saying a lot). I think Sandusky wrote them.

Sandusky loved to project the image of "old Jer," goofy and lovable; he pulled off for decades. I would not call putting up the facade cowardice either. He played it to the hilt, even when it obviously wouldn't work.

Sandusky is an exceptionally bright individual, and that why he was, and is, so dangerous.

Still, I cannot come up with a motive for Sandusky killing RFG, and not trying to silence some of the others.

That said, I would not believe that Gricar was so stupid as to have all the Sandusky information on a laptop he was planning to erase.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

With respect, as I've said, I'm not talking about the banks or the river. I am talking about the Wetlands, but couldn't remember what it was called. It wasn't searched and the dogs wouldn't have alerted there. Good lord.

Okay, we are on the same page.

It is likely, but not highly likely, that the body would have been found if in that area. It is owned by Bucknell, and used for some classes. That said, this is one of the areas I think should be searched. It is actually the first on my list: http://www.centredaily.com/2010/03/17/2397229/roads-not-taken-the-bridgehead.html

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Snipped.

But while it does provide a possible motive for foul play, it also provides a possible motive for walking away.

It also provides a motive for suicide. People have been known to kill themselves when they feel that they have dishonored themselves: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremy_Michael_Boorda#Death

We also saw Bud Dwyer, who shot himself before his sentencing, in part because his wife would get his pension.

 

[JaimeSommers]

Okay, we are on the same page.

It is likely, but not highly likely, that the body would have been found if in that area. It is owned by Bucknell, and used for some classes. That said, this is one of the areas I think should be searched. It is actually the first on my list: http://www.centredaily.com/2010/03/17/2397229/roads-not-taken-the-bridgehead.html

Yes, we are definitely on the same page. I recall thinking back in 2005 how it seemed a no-brainer to search the Wetlands carefully, no matter how difficult.

I am obviously speculating here, but it makes sense (to me) that -- knowing the pain of his brother's suicide -- RFG may have gone to great lengths to spare his family the same. If he made it difficult to find him, his family could eventually have him declared dead, they could get whatever insurance benefits, etc.

I'm trying to look at it through the eyes of a man who loves his family but doesn't want to live anymore (for whatever reason). The rational perspective is to not kill yourself at all if you want to spare your family pain, but rational doesn't always apply when someone has made the decision to take their own life, imo.

These are the thoughts I have when I think he killed himself. As time goes on, I am less inclined toward walkaway and more inclined toward suicide first and then homicide. I wonder if he hung out in the area long enough for it to become dusk when no one would see him go into the water. Perhaps his Web search history would show research on regional wetlands. He could never do it in Centre County. The "regular" person can't take two steps out the door without seeing someone they know, let alone the D.A.

Just thinking things through.

 

[JaimeSommers]

Snipped.



It also provides a motive for suicide. People have been known to kill themselves when they feel that they have dishonored themselves: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremy_Michael_Boorda#Death

We also saw Bud Dwyer, who shot himself before his sentencing, in part because his wife would get his pension.

I happened to walk in while my mother was watching Budd Dwyer's press conference back in 1987. I will never forget him pulling out that gun as long as I live.

 

[MissJ]

What good is money if he had to live with being known as "The Prosecutor Who Failed to Prosecute Sandusky" for the rest of his life? (http://deadspin.com/5857966/the-mystery-of-ray-gricar-the-prosecutor-who-failed-to-prosecute-jerry-sandusky-and-who-might-be-dead) Would he want to face his loved ones with that kind of shame hanging over his head? You suggest that that may have been troubling him before hie disappeared, and I agree that's a real possibility. But while it does provide a possible motive for foul play, it also provides a possible motive for walking away.

JMO

I agree that that might be a reason for him to leave. But how did he know what Sandusky had done.....to all the other boys? it hadn't all come out yet.:moo:

 

[JaimeSommers]

I agree that that might be a reason for him to leave. But how did he know what Sandusky had done.....to all the other boys? it hadn't all come out yet.:moo:

If there's anything that has become clear to me in the last 2.5 years, it's that "Jerry's Boys" was the most well-known "secret" in State College. Feels like almost everyone had heard it but me. Makes me sick.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I agree that that might be a reason for him to leave. But how did he know what Sandusky had done.....to all the other boys? it hadn't all come out yet.:moo:

Rumors? Nothing that he could prosecute, or would prosecute. Possibly, he saw Sandusky with a child. He also could have been worried that JKA would prosecute; she knew that there had been a 1998 incident, and knew that RFG didn't prosecute.

 

[Hbgchick]

Sandusky was first in his class as an undergraduate, and has a master's degree.

I've looked at the TSM bylaws, and they are the some one the best I've ever seen. They are substantially better than most of the bylaws I've seen that are drafted by attorneys. To a job that good, you basically need a professional that is experienced in writing bylaws (and coming from me, that is saying a lot). I think Sandusky wrote them.

Sandusky loved to project the image of "old Jer," goofy and lovable; he pulled off for decades. I would not call putting up the facade cowardice either. He played it to the hilt, even when it obviously wouldn't work.

Sandusky is an exceptionally bright individual, and that why he was, and is, so dangerous.

Still, I cannot come up with a motive for Sandusky killing RFG, and not trying to silence some of the others.

That said, I would not believe that Gricar was so stupid as to have all the Sandusky information on a laptop he was planning to erase.

Have to disagree a bit, JJ. I work with people of varying levels of education up to and surpassing the PhD level every day, and many are definitely NOT "exceptionally bright". The ability to study and learn about a particular subject does not make one "exceptionally bright". I don't believe Sandusky is either. Of average intelligence, sure. But certainly not on par with RFG.

 

[JaimeSommers]

Have to disagree a bit, JJ. I work with people of varying levels of education up to and surpassing the PhD level every day, and many are definitely NOT "exceptionally bright". The ability to study and learn about a particular subject does not make one "exceptionally bright". I don't believe Sandusky is either. Of average intelligence, sure. But certainly not on par with RFG.

BBM ... Man, do I ever agree with this. There's booksmart and then there's smart. IMO

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Snipped.

These are the thoughts I have when I think he killed himself. As time goes on, I am less inclined toward walkaway and more inclined toward suicide first and then homicide. I wonder if he hung out in the area long enough for it to become dusk when no one would see him go into the water. Perhaps his Web search history would show research on regional wetlands. He could never do it in Centre County. The "regular" person can't take two steps out the door without seeing someone they know, let alone the D.A.

Just thinking things through.

Twilight in Lewisburg on 4/15/05 ended at 8:16 PM, so it would be fairly dark at about 8:05 PM. He was there in the "evening," so that is not too much of a gap. The bridge has lights on it and the weather was clear, no rain.

One problem is that at least three people saw him on 4/16. The car was found at about 6:30 PM, and there was plenty of light at that point.

As far as I know, there was no web search specifically for the wetland.

I am also not sure of the depth. Some of it might be quite shallow, 1-2 feet. Without knowing the depth, it might have been difficult for RFG to know what areas he could go to drown himself, or if the body wouldn't surface.

 

[JaimeSommers]

Snipped.



Twilight in Lewisburg on 4/15/05 ended at 8:16 PM, so it would be fairly dark at about 8:05 PM. He was there in the "evening," so that is not too much of a gap. The bridge has lights on it and the weather was clear, no rain.

One problem is that at least three people saw him on 4/16. The car was found at about 6:30 PM, and there was plenty of light at that point.

Remind me, please ... were the sightings from people who knew him (definitive sightings) or from people who believed it was him based on a picture they saw after a day or two?

As far as I know, there was no web search specifically for the wetland.

I am also not sure of the depth. Some of it might be quite shallow, 1-2 feet. Without knowing the depth, it might have been difficult for RFG to know what areas he could go to drown himself, or if the body wouldn't surface.

I wasn't thinking that he drowned himself. I was thinking more about a self-inflicted gunshot. (Yes, I know that opens up other questions.)

 

[BigCat]

Rumors? Nothing that he could prosecute, or would prosecute. Possibly, he saw Sandusky with a child. He also could have been worried that JKA would prosecute; she knew that there had been a 1998 incident, and knew that RFG didn't prosecute.

http://articles.philly.com/2012-06-19/news/32300166_1_investigators-child-predator-jurors

According to the above article, Stacy Parks Miller received an anonymous email in 2010 telling her to contact Mike McQueary, if she wanted to know about Sandusky. Could RFG have received a similar email?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Remind me, please ... were the sightings from people who knew him (definitive sightings) or from people who believed it was him based on a picture they saw after a day or two?

At least one of them made the report on the evening of 4/16/05.

I wasn't thinking that he drowned himself. I was thinking more about a self-inflicted gunshot. (Yes, I know that opens up other questions.)

He didn't like guns and I don't believed owned one.

 

[JaimeSommers]

At least one of them made the report on the evening of 4/16/05.

RSBM ... Okay, but that wasn't what I asked. Was the sighting on the 16th by someone who actually knew him, or was it from someone who thought they saw him after they saw his picture once news hit that he was missing?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

http://articles.philly.com/2012-06-19/news/32300166_1_investigators-child-predator-jurors

According to the above article, Stacy Parks Miller received an anonymous email in 2010 telling her to contact Mike McQueary, if she wanted to know about Sandusky. Could RFG have received a similar email?

Definitely not from the same person. ESPN managed to track down who sent the e-mail. The guy, Chris Houser, was discussing the possibility of Sandusky coaching again with McQueary's brother in late October or early November 2010. They went to a private chat and the brother told him what Mike McQueary had seen. Houser sent the e-mail to Parks Miller.

http://espn.go.com/espn/feature/story/_/id/10542793/the-whistleblower-last-stand

 

[J. J. in Phila]

RSBM ... Okay, but that wasn't what I asked. Was the sighting on the 16th by someone who actually knew him, or was it from someone who thought they saw him after they saw his picture once news hit that he was missing?

Sorry, I better explain. Very few people in Union County knew RFG.

The news didn't hit the wire service until about 10:45 PM on 4/16/05, so no one in Lewisburg knew that RFG was missing, unless the police told them. It was carried in Johnstown-Altoona media market, but Lewisburg is not in that market. Those witnesses that reported him were responding to police inquiries. Some witness may have reported after the story broke.

Here is a map of the PA Markets: http://www.politicspa.com/breaking-...icture-by-tv-market/43926/pa-media-markets-2/

 

[JaimeSommers]

Sorry, I better explain. Very few people in Union County knew RFG.

The news didn't hit the wire service until about 10:45 PM on 4/16/045, so no one in Lewisburg knew that RFG was missing, unless the police told them. It was carried in Johnstown-Altoona media market, but Lewisburg is not in that market. Those witnesses that reported him were responding to police inquiries. Some witness may have reported after the story broke.

Exactly! That's why I take the sightings on the 16th with a grain of salt. They could be right, but they could be wrong. RFG, in my opinion, had an "everyman" look. Not a guy that stood out, outside of Centre County.

I think RFG chose Lewisburg because no one would know him and it was out of his local media jurisdiction. Whether to take his own life or to meet someone who ended up being involved in killing him, it was more than just a drive. IMO.

Do we know if he was taking any prescription meds? I don't recall if this was discussed previously.

 

[JaimeSommers]

He didn't like guns and I don't believed owned one.

Out of curiosity, where does this info come from about him not liking guns? Not doubting you, just genuinely curious.

 

[shadow of my mind]

A lot of good thoughts being tossed back and forth. Need to let them all peculate a bit before adding my two cents.

The wetlands are intriguing in of themselves as a place to hide (or dispose) of a body. Need to do some research on that. Maybe Bucknell has some data on them since they own them.