PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #12

[J. J. in Phila]

Exactly! That's why I take the sightings on the 16th with a grain of salt. They could be right, but they could be wrong. RFG, in my opinion, had an "everyman" look. Not a guy that stood out, outside of Centre County.

I think RFG chose Lewisburg because no one would know him and it was out of his local media jurisdiction. Whether to take his own life or to meet someone who ended up being involved in killing him, it was more than just a drive. IMO.

Do we know if he was taking any prescription meds? I don't recall if this was discussed previously.

I would not take them with a grain of salt. We know of three, but there may be many more; LE is holding back. We also don't know if anyone saw him in the Mini.

As far as know, no meds. He did not even like to take aspirin, according to Sloane.

As for the gun, my source was Tony Gricar. He also did not personally argue the penalty phases of death penalty cases.

 

[MissJ]

It would surprise me greatly if Sandusky personally killed RFG. Sandusky isn't the sharpest tool in the drawer, the possibility that he got RFG in a position to murder him and then exhibited the presence of mind to hide/bury the body is ludicrous.

Lol. I never thought Sandusky could personally murder him. He is not that sharp, for sure! But rabid fans are willing to go a long way for their team to stay on top and unblemished by scandal. I live in such a town, it is crazy!:moo:

 

[MissJ]

BBM ... Man, do I ever agree with this. There's booksmart and then there's smart. IMO

Yes and JS doesn't fit the latter.:moo:

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Lol. I never thought Sandusky could personally murder him. He is not that sharp, for sure! But rabid fans are willing to go a long way for their team to stay on top and unblemished by scandal. I live in such a town, it is crazy!:moo:

There were and are a lot "crazy football fans," RFG's term for them, but they didn't know about Sandusky.

The problem is, why kill RFG, and leave a whole bunch evidence around. As far as I know both victims in the 1998 case are still around, as are Victim 6's mother, Schreffler, Ralston, Lauro, Sloane, and JKA. The police report was hidden, but it still existed.

 

[MissJ]

FWIW I don't think there is any simple answer..like "he walked away so his daughter could have his pension" or he "he was murdered". It seems much more complicated. Looking back we don't know why RFG was anxious right before he went missing. We don't know if he was threatened. We also do not know if there were people who knew about Sandusky and what he was doing and where it might lead. RFG may have met with and spoken to others about Sandusky and expressed concerns. JMO.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

FWIW I don't think there is any simple answer..like "he walked away so his daughter could have his pension" or he "he was murdered". It seems much more complicated. Looking back we don't know why RFG was anxious right before he went missing. We don't know if he was threatened. We also do not know if there were people who knew about Sandusky and what he was doing and where it might lead. RFG may have met with and spoken to others about Sandusky and expressed concerns. JMO.

We do have evidence that RFG was not overly concerned about his physical safety. On 4/14 and 4/15, he went into areas without cell coverage and at least one area without regular police patrols. Those are not the actions of someone worried about his own physical safety. We also have a video from the evening of 4/14. RFG is parking in his usual spot, and doesn't look around to see if anyone is following him, or planning to jump him. That is very strong evidence he was not worried about his safety.

Well, some of the others are known, and they also knew that he didn't prosecute Sandusky. Further, there is no record of him revisiting the case.

 

[MissJ]

We do have evidence that RFG was not overly concerned about his physical safety. On 4/14 and 4/15, he went into areas without cell coverage and at least one area without regular police patrols. Those are not the actions of someone worried about his own physical safety. We also have a video from the evening of 4/14. RFG is parking in his usual spot, and doesn't look around to see if anyone is following him, or planning to jump him. That is very strong evidence he was not worried about his safety.

Well, some of the others are known, and they also knew that he didn't prosecute Sandusky. Further, there is no record of him revisiting the case.

Didn't prosecute? No but he might have been rethinking the situation if he heard rumors that Sandusky had re offended. We have no way of knowing. Apparently there were rumors. RFG was a father. This could have been on his mind. As far as being threatened we have no way of knowing. Like RFG I worked for the government. There were many times I was threatened by really dangerous people. People who were criminally insane. Most of them had murdered at least one person. I was never afraid, until I was and it was too late. On the last day of my career I was attacked, beaten and seriously hurt by one of those people. Fortunately I was lucky that my screams were heard and my attacker was pulled off me because I was in a very public place. Point is RFG, like me, might have been a little too complacent.

We really have no way of knowing what was bothering RFG. But something was. RFG is gone. We can analyze and make assumptions (based on what we do know) but we do not know what actually happened.:moo:

 

[J. J. in Phila]

BBM

Didn't prosecute? No but he might have been rethinking the situation if he heard rumors that Sandusky had re offended. We have no way of knowing. Apparently there were rumors. RFG was a father. This could have been on his mind.

Unless one of the "crazy football fans" is psychic, no one else would know what was on RFG's mind, except RFG. There are no records that he was exploring the possibility of charging or even re-investigating Sandusky, according to the BPD. None of his coworkers have come forward and said so. He wasn't contacting the police, victims, or witnesses to the 1998 incident. The DA's Office did not even have a Sandusky file.

As far as being threatened we have no way of knowing. Like RFG I worked for the government. There were many times I was threatened by really dangerous people. People who were criminally insane. Most of them had murdered at least one person. I was never afraid, until I was and it was too late. On the last day of my career I was attacked, beaten and seriously hurt by one of those people. Fortunately I was lucky that my screams were heard and my attacker was pulled off me because I was in a very public place. Point is RFG, like me, might have been a little too complacent.

If he was complacent why was he acting oddly, for at least 4-5 weeks prior to his disappearance? It seemed to be getting worse. I do agree that people in public positions do get threatened occasionally, and, yes, I have been as well.

RFG's actions tell us something. We know that acting unusually. If he was feeling threatened, this is what he did, or didn't do. He didn't tell his staff or the police. He went into areas without police protection and without cell coverage. He didn't look around to see if there was a potential threat when he entered and left the Courthouse, after hours.

RFG being worried about his physical safety and the same time as being complacent about his physical safety are two contradictory positions.

We really have no way of knowing what was bothering RFG. But something was. RFG is gone. We can analyze and make assumptions (based on what we do know) but we do not know what actually happened.:moo:

We can determine what did not happen and we will be ultimately be left with just one option. Being Holmesian, "Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth."

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I took a look at the tape again.

RFG enters camera left. He is in the Mini; he parks it.

Another vehicle, an orange Jeep with huge tires (off-road type) crosses the lot, but does not stop. It exist camera right.

RFG gets out, and goes into the Courthouse. At the door, he glances camera right. Anyone following him would have been behind him from the left. The streets are one way, so anyone on the right couldn't immediately follow him.

When he leaves, he leaves without glancing in either direction and leaves camera left.

He did look to see if anyone was following him, when he went out. Unless RFG thought he was being followed by an orange Jeep, with absolutely gigantic tires, not the prime tail vehicle, he did not think he was being followed.

 

[MissJ]

JMO, I didn't say he was worried about his safety. I said, or tried to say his life might have been in danger. FWIW I never told anyone when I was threatened. Didn't think I needed to. I'm sure we don't know everything about who RFG confided in or talked to about Sandusky or that situation. Or anything else for that matter. If we knew everything about RFG we wouldn't be here speculating. We'd know what happened and we don't.
Who would have prosecuted a case if/when JS re offended? I think there were people who knew he had re offended before RFG disappeared. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm not. Its not all black and white. JMO.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

JMO, I didn't say he was worried about his safety. I said, or tried to say his life might have been in danger. FWIW I never told anyone when I was threatened. Didn't think I needed to. I'm sure we don't know everything about who RFG confided in or talked to about Sandusky or that situation. Or anything else for that matter. If we knew everything about RFG we wouldn't be here speculating. We'd know what happened and we don't.

Well, I am asking about reasons that RFG was acting unusually. Being worried about a physical threat does not fit, because of RFG's actions. Something else was causing him to be behave atypically. Whether or not RFG's live was in danger, RFG actions indicate that he did not think it was.

We do know that LE has said that RFG was not working on the Sandusky case, and there is no case file at the DA's Office.

Who would have prosecuted a case if/when JS re offended? I think there were people who knew he had re offended before RFG disappeared. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm not. Its not all black and white. JMO.

Nobody, including RFG, would know. There was an election coming up for DA, and there were three possible candidates that could win, MTM and Bascom on the Republican side, and JKA for the Democrats.

 

[shadow of my mind]

JMO, I didn't say he was worried about his safety. I said, or tried to say his life might have been in danger. FWIW I never told anyone when I was threatened. Didn't think I needed to. I'm sure we don't know everything about who RFG confided in or talked to about Sandusky or that situation. Or anything else for that matter. If we knew everything about RFG we wouldn't be here speculating. We'd know what happened and we don't.
Who would have prosecuted a case if/when JS re offended? I think there were people who knew he had re offended before RFG disappeared. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm not. Its not all black and white. JMO.

BBM
That is the point that I have been trying to convey as well.

RG didn't feel, at least at up to that point in time, that he needed to say anything to anyone.

It is in my opinion, based on how he operated as a DA and ran the office, that he would have wanted some type of solid proof before he would say a thing to anyone that he thought someone was tailing him.

Just because he did not say anything to anyone or did anything differently in his routine does not mean that he had not suspected that someone was following him.

Suspicion of being followed does not necessarily equate to concern of his physical safety either. Remember he was smart, the people working with him knew it and he knew it. Sometimes that leads to complacency in how you safe-guard yourself and sometimes that leads to a false sense that “no one can get to me” type attitude. Combine those two and you have a recipe for disaster, if in fact someone is actually looking to do you harm.

His acting distracted or on edge may have been the only clue as to how much that thought actually did concern him.

As I had said before those two trips, using sparsely travelled roads may have been to see if he could tell if anyone was following him. It also may be the catalyst as to why, after having talked about wiping his laptop he decided to finally do something about it took it with him on April 15.

Of course that brings us right back to the question of what was on the laptop and who would be looking to harm him.

I took a look at the tape again.

RFG enters camera left. He is in the Mini; he parks it.

Another vehicle, an orange Jeep with huge tires (off-road type) crosses the lot, but does not stop. It exist camera right.

RFG gets out, and goes into the Courthouse. At the door, he glances camera right. Anyone following him would have been behind him from the left. The streets are one way, so anyone on the right couldn't immediately follow him.

When he leaves, he leaves without glancing in either direction and leaves camera left.

He did look to see if anyone was following him, when he went out. Unless RFG thought he was being followed by an orange Jeep, with absolutely gigantic tires, not the prime tail vehicle, he did not think he was being followed.

BBM

J.J. you mentioned you reviewed the tape. I am confused in your two statements; “he doesn’t look when leaving” and “then he did look when he went out”. Which is correct? Or am I miss understanding something?

Is there a link for the security footage?

 

[MissJ]

No one is willing to consider that what was concerning him may have been rumors of JS's behavior and feelings of guilt that he had not prosecuted? Most people don't blab every thought they have to colleagues, friends or family. Professional people have to keep a lot of things to themselves and JS might have been what was concerning to RFG. LE doesn't have access to every thought RFG might have had.
Yes, you might suspect someone is tailing you but not be too worried. After years of threats and nothing happening you don't sweat the small stuff. Then it may be too late.
I had no way of defending myself when it happened to me. None. I let the protective instinct slip and there was my attacker just waiting for that kind of moment. JMO.

 

[charminglane]

Had RFG had any doctor appointments around that time?
Bad health news also makes people react in different ways. Some not always positive.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Had RFG had any doctor appointments around that time?
Bad health news also makes people react in different ways. Some not always positive.

Not according to LE. PEF suggested going to a doctor, but he brushed her off.

 

[charminglane]

Thank you!
Interesting.
Was this because he was acting peculiar or felt poorly?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Snipped for length.

As I had said before those two trips, using sparsely travelled roads may have been to see if he could tell if anyone was following him. It also may be the catalyst as to why, after having talked about wiping his laptop he decided to finally do something about it took it with him on April 15.

Of course that brings us right back to the question of what was on the laptop and who would be looking to harm him.

It wasn't that he headed into sparsely populated areas. RFG headed into sparsely populated areas without cell phone coverage, and, at least on 4/15, roads he knew were not normally patrolled by LE (I simply don't know if the roads he was on on 4/14 are patrolled or not). That is not the action of a guy who is worried about his physical safety, especially one that was unarmed.

If RFG had been worried about someone following him, he could have turned right at Centre Hall, instead of left. The area is not heavily traveled and he'd end up in the Boalsburg area. He could have gone straight and turned right on Route 45, which would have taken him to Boalsburg. That area has cell coverage, at least in general.

J.J. you mentioned you reviewed the tape. I am confused in your two statements; “he doesn’t look when leaving” and “then he did look when he went out”. Which is correct? Or am I miss understanding something?

Is there a link for the security footage?

I should have been clearer. RFG does not look left or right when leaving the Courthouse. He heads straight to the Mini, which is parked in his reserved spot. He turns and glances screen right, when going in, but anyone following him would have been screen left.

The footage was on Disappeared. It has been broadcast.

 

[shadow of my mind]

Thank you!
Interesting.
Was this because he was acting peculiar or felt poorly?

Posted: Monday, April 18, 2005 12:00 am Bellefonte Police notified surrounding police departments of the missing-person report.
Police also notified departments in six surrounding states before they located his car within Pennsylvania.
"We notified them in case he crossed the border into those states," Dixon said.
Dixon said Gricar has no known history of mental health or other medical problems.
"He has told his friends and family he's been feeling a little tired lately," Dixon said.

Posted: Friday, April 22, 2005 12:00 am
According to the search warrant, Patty Fornicola, Gricar's girlfriend and a clerk in the district attorney's office, told police that for the past three weeks, Gricar had been complaining of fatigue and would often take naps at lunchtime and after work.

[There is no direct link to these articles but you can access back articles written by the Penn State College Newspaper on-line and do a search.]

 

[J. J. in Phila]

No one is willing to consider that what was concerning him may have been rumors of JS's behavior and feelings of guilt that he had not prosecuted? Most people don't blab every thought they have to colleagues, friends or family. Professional people have to keep a lot of things to themselves and JS might have been what was concerning to RFG. LE doesn't have access to every thought RFG might have had.
Yes, you might suspect someone is tailing you but not be too worried. After years of threats and nothing happening you don't sweat the small stuff. Then it may be too late.
I had no way of defending myself when it happened to me. None. I let the protective instinct slip and there was my attacker just waiting for that kind of moment. JMO.

He was close to Sloane, who was involved in the 1998 investigation. Sloane was out sick, but they still communicated.

There was no electronic indication he was looking at Sandusky. LE said that. As I indicated, there is no file on Sandusky at the DA's Office. There wasn't anything there that indicated he was looking at Sandusky. No Google searches, for example.

I also would not consider someone tailing me the "small stuff," if they were following me for that distance over those roads. The shortest route from the Willowbank Building, where the PB Meeting was held on 4/14, to Raystown Lake and back to the Courthouse was 110 miles.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

His brother, Roy, was bipolar, and committed suicide in 1996. Depression can be genetic and suicidal tendencies associated with depression can also be genetic (though the latter was not confirmed at the time).