PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #4

[christine2448]

What do y'all think about WPP. Could it even be a possibility, or no?

 

[txsleuth]

IMO, there's no reasonable explanation as to why they wouldn't have questioned her in-depth about what she saw. Are they simply so arrogant that they don't want to change their timeline? Are they trying to cover something up or shut someone up? Did they already know what happened to Ray and so they don't need her information (although that would be extremely suspicious and I imagine that they would have taken her statement regardless, if for no other reason than to avoid making it appear fishy). I've never been able to rectify that fact in my mind.

It's my understanding that they did question her further, but that her sighting could not be corroborated in any way - by other witnesses or courthouse surveillance.

 

[Talisman]

What do y'all think about WPP. Could it even be a possibility, or no?

Do you think it is a possibility, christine? I admit not having alot of knowledge about WPP or how it works exactly, but this case just seems too messy for that. Wouldn't the government plan a better disappearance?

I still feel that Ray was murdered.

So many strange things in this case: IIRC

-no identifiable fingerprints in Ray's Mini Cooper ( not even Ray's)
-cigarette ashes on the passenger side of his car
-dogs 'lost' his sent by his Mini Cooper (strange considering he is conisdered to have commited suicide by walking to the bridge and jumping in the water)
-Ray's laptop is found without the hard drive
-Ray's hard drive is found months after his disappearance (upstream!)
-the case for the laptop is left in his closet at the home he shared with Patti. IMO laptops are somewhat awkward to carry around without one.
-a big heroin bust happens right before he disappears.
-Ray is looking forward to retiring and spending time doing things he enjoys
-The Mini Cooper is only held for a couple of days and then released to Patti.
-LE not questioning witnesses, friends and some co-workers.

Much more, but going by memory right now. Most of this was in the link that christine posted to Politigals google pages.

I really believe that Ray was not a suicide or walk-a-way. Ray Gricar was murdered imo.

 

[luthersmama]

What do y'all think about WPP. Could it even be a possibility, or no?

Witness to what? No big corruption scandals have popped up since he went missing. Of course he knew about drug cases, but that was his job. The other DA's who are raising the ruckus now don't seem to think it is a possibility or they wouldn't be talking about it they way they are.

I used to think he ran away, but now I am leaning toward murder. However, I don't think it had to do with drugs or money. I suspect there is a sexual angle that we don't know about.

 

[audrey77]

I think it's a possibility. And we wouldn't know if he testified in any cases (could be anywhere) b/c they hood them and hide their identity when testifying, etc.

 

[kemo]

Roy DID NOT disappear 9 years TO THE DAY. I checked. I thought I read that somewhere but it is wrong.

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

Thanks for checking that out Kemo.

About WPP, I don't find it possible since I agree that they would have done a much better job making him disappear. This has been an absolute fiasco.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Witness to what? No big corruption scandals have popped up since he went missing. Of course he knew about drug cases, but that was his job. The other DA's who are raising the ruckus now don't seem to think it is a possibility or they wouldn't be talking about it they way they are.

I used to think he ran away, but now I am leaning toward murder. However, I don't think it had to do with drugs or money. I suspect there is a sexual angle that we don't know about.

(This is my first post here so sorry if it's a bit rough.)

Mr. Gricar was slated to testify in a case on Monday, 4/18/05, but not about anything involving witnessing a crime. The ADA handling the case had previously had some dealings with a witness (I'm guessing a plea deal, but I'm not sure). The defense was challenging or might be challenging if, because of that, the ADA would have a conflict of interest. Gricar was there to testify that the was no conflict, and, if the judge said there was one, to question that particular witness.

The thing is, anybody else from the DA's Office could have been brought in to question the witness. Gricar wasn't going to be doing anything unique to the case. If he'd had the flu, and couldn't show up, it still would have happened, because, at worst, another ADA could question the witness.

The DA's Office wasn't the group prosecuting the drug case (Taj "Verbal" Lee being the main defendant). That was being done by the State Attorney General's Office, with then Deputy AG Michael Madeira prosecuting.

I agree with those posters who say that it wasn't WPP, because of how badly it would have had to have been carried out. You don't want someone in WPP to have his face plastered all over TV and the Internet.

 

[Talisman]

J. J. in Phila,

Welome to Websleuths!!! You are sort of 'known' for your wealth of knowledge in the Ray Gricar case. I am looking forward to hearing more from you!!

 

[J. J. in Phila]

J. J. in Phila,

Welome to Websleuths!!! You are sort of 'known' for your wealth of knowledge in the Ray Gricar case. I am looking forward to hearing more from you!!

The only answer I'm interested in is, what happened to Ray Gricar, and no I don't know the answer (I don't even have a firm opinion on what happened).

But I am that curmudgeon.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Time is not so much a factor as whether the couple "holds themselves out as married." They did not do so. Pennsylvania courts have recently split on the subject of recognition of common law marriage, but would agree that Ray and Patti were not spouses for the purpose of intestate inheritance.

However, he may have been able to designate her as the beneficiary of his pension in the event of his death. Depends on the terms of the pension plan.

You are correct about conflicting court decisions. The Commonwealth Court ruled, I think sometime after 2000, that common law marriage didn't exist, but the Superior Court said they did after that, and that the Commonwealth Court exceeded it's authority. (In PA, both courts are first round appellant courts, but with different jurisdiction).

In any event, the General Assembly stepped in and said that as of January 1, 2005, common law marriages would no longer be recognized. Great, except that Mr. Gricar and Ms. Fornicola were living together for about a year prior, so whether they were or weren't married by common law is questionable.

The problem is, Mr. Gricar is alive legally. Nobody can inherit, or get a pension, until he's declared dead; his family hasn't exactly been rushing to try. Tony Gricar pointed out a while back that, in theory, they could now (think Steve Fassett), but they have not tried.

Nobody gets any financial gain at this point.

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

The thing is, anybody else from the DA's Office could have been brought in to question the witness. Gricar wasn't going to be doing anything unique to the case. If he'd had the flu, and couldn't show up, it still would have happened, because, at worst, another ADA could question the witness.

I never knew this. So then it's unreasonable to think that Ray was 'bumped off' to keep him from testifying?

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

Nobody gets any financial gain at this point.

And therefore, it would stand to reason that no one close to Ray would have had him 'bumped off' either. If it were one of them, I would think that they'd be pushing to have him declared dead.

Were there any other big cases in which Ray was involved prior to his disappearance?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

JerseyGirl, I got my information on the case from Tony Gricar. According to him, Mr. Gricar was going to testify that another ADA could examine a prosecution witness without a conflict of interest. If the judge said that it was a conflict, Mr. Gricar could examine the witness. (Yes in all honesty, I've thought about this at least like this as well.) You can e-mail him and check to see how much I've garbled it in the retelling. He's been reasonably open to numerous people interested.

There was a vehicular homicide case that was pending for 4/18/05 (I'm not sure if this was the same case). A woman allegedly ran a stop sign and killed a motorcyclist. She was ultimately acquitted.

Over the years, there were a number of "big cases." There was a murder case pending, the Vargas Case. The things were:

1. On 4/15/05 the case wasn't scheduled and it looked like it wouldn't be scheduled until after Gricar's term as DA ended. If you read Bosak's "Missed Leads" article, I think this was the case that the judge was trying to schedule in October 2005 and that prompted Mr. Gicar's response of "I won't be here."

2. The prosecution case was exceptionally weak; this was a supposed shaken baby case, and it took the DA's office eleven months to file charges. The two medical experts that the prosecution was using actually disagreed with each other on if the baby had any head trauma.

Two articles on it are here, both Phila newspapers:

http://www.philly.com/inquirer/health_science/daily/10847837.html

http://www.raynesmccarty.com/news/print.php?ID=67

Vargas basically fired his defense attorney (or he withdrew) and brought in two defense attorneys (that are from Phila) that were absolutely stellar and working pro bono (most of the money he had had previously gone to the local attorney). They were in process of getting them officially on the case on 4/15/05; I think the paperwork was approved by 5/1/05. It was a prosecution case that was bad, and getting worse, when Mr. Gricar disappeared.

Vargas ended up pleading nolo contendere (no contest) and was basically told to go home and keep his nose clean.

Financially, the most effective person was probably Ms. Fornicola, but negatively. Mr. Gricar paid at least some of her mortgage payments and she was planning to retire with him.

I can't see a financial motive for anyone in this case.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Here is the quote:

Centre County Criminal Court Administrator Cheryl Spotts was never interviewed by police. But she has long been struck by what she says was odd behavior by Gricar about a month before his disappearance.

"I remember distinctly a meeting we had, March the 9th," Spotts said. It was a meeting in the chambers of Centre County President Judge Charles C. Brown Jr. They were there to talk about a potential death-penalty case and set a trial date.

"It just seemed that Ray wasn't with it," Spotts said. "He was just looking around, which kind of shocked me because this was a death-penalty case."

At one point, Brown told Gricar he had two weeks available in October for the trial.

"Ray just turned and looked at the bookcases," Spotts said. "He didn't even look at the judge when he said it.

"He just said, 'I won't be here,' " Spotts said.

http://www.centredaily.com/news/ray_gricar/story/3802.html


Bosak's reporting is excellent here.

I have not heard of any other "potential death-penalty case" in Centre County at the time and Judge Brown was the judge handling the Vargas case. This about five weeks prior to Mr. Gricar's disappearance. I'm guessing that it was the Vargas case.

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

Thanks for all of the information and for refreshing my memory about a couple of things.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Now, I have a question for some the people that remembered the early parts of the case.

I'm trying to establish a list of when the witnesses in or around Lewisburg saw Mr. Gricar.

So far, I have:

4/15/05

12:15-12-45 PM, reported in the Post Gazettte

McKnight's witness 5:00 PM, Route 15

Business man 6:00 PM (either 4/15 or 4/16)

4/16/05

Craig Bennett, business owner, around noon

Two workers, female, afternoon (don't know the time)

The unsure businessman from above 6:00 PM

I know that there was a person from a Museum and I think a few others. I'm trying to come up with a time line of just the witness sightings (and leaving out the Fenton/Grine sighting).

 

[J. J. in Phila]

And therefore, it would stand to reason that no one close to Ray would have had him 'bumped off' either. If it were one of them, I would think that they'd be pushing to have him declared dead.

Were there any other big cases in which Ray was involved prior to his disappearance?

Just to follow up, LE apparently looked at past cases, including recent prison releases, or so I've heard. It was another dead end. Now that doesn't preclude a "slow burn," in Tony Gricar's words; Mr. Gricar had been a prosecutor for about 37 years (about 12 years in Cleveland, about 5 as an ADA in Centre, and over 19 as DA).

Very few prosecutors are attacked outside of the courthouse. While it not too uncommon for an angry defendant or witness to lunge at a prosecutor (or defense attorney or judge), it usually happens in the courtroom or in the courthouse.

I could not find a record of even a plot to kill a prosecutor in PA in recent years. Even nationally, I have only heard of about a dozen plots, foiled by LE to kill a prosecutor. I couldn't find one in PA, recently (though there was one against a prosecutor of the Molly McGuires in the 1870's).

Of the murders/possible murders of prosecutors/family members of prosecutors since 2000.

1. A Kentucky prosecutor killed when a child molestation defendant charged his house with an automatic weapon. Defendant killed in the ensuing gun battle. 2000.

2. A Chicago AUSA killed in a robbery in NC or SC. Murderer had no idea he was a prosecutor. 2001?

3. Thomas Wales, an AUSA and outspoken gun control advocate, shot through a window in his Seattle residence. 2001-unsolved.

4. Jonathan Luna, a AUSA from Baltimore, found drowned with severe stab wounds outside of Denver, PA. 2003-unsolved, and may have been an accidental suicide.

5. Cindy Leggins, wife of AUSA in IL, found murdered, southern IL. The suspect, Brian Cockrum, had filed a restraining order against her, and claimed that she had had an affair with her; he killed himself when police were closing in. 2006-No information the USDA Leggins ever prosecuted Cockrum.

http://www.wsiltv.com/p/news_details.php?newsID=508&type=local

It does happen, but it is not common.

 

[athy]

this might sound a little silly but is it possible it was some type of "road rage" thing. perhaps RG cut the guy off not really realising it. the guy followed him. then when the guy found out who he was paniced and figured he better get rid of him. perhaps the guy was wanted for something else or already had a record.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

this might sound a little silly but is it possible it was some type of "road rage" thing. perhaps RG cut the guy off not really realising it. the guy followed him. then when the guy found out who he was paniced and figured he better get rid of him. perhaps the guy was wanted for something else or already had a record.

That doesn't explain the laptop.

It's possible the laptop was tossed into the river later, possibly not even related to why Mr. Gricar disappeared. Even a random robbery is possible in that case.

If Kroll can recover some of the data from the computer, that might but some things on, or take them off, the table.