PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #7

[J. J. in Phila]

In my defense, JJ started this by painting Patty as the doormat victim of RG. IMO, she's not. She is a girlfriend whose boyfriend either left her or died 6.5 years ago. What he really did though, was to call RG a " BULLY" without saying so.
IF PF was a " doormat", then RG stepped all over her. No, I don't believe it and I hope he doesn't believe it either. If he does, then he must intensely dislike the person he has written about for years- Ray Gricar.

No, but if he had been living with her, and making her pay all the bills, I would have thought so.

It is less a question of "liking" RFG than admiring his public service, which, excluding the Sandusky decision, was very good.

Another thing- which no one has ever addressed on here to the best of my knowledge, is this:
How many searches did PFo organize or take part in?

None, because they were water and air searches.

How many times was she seen in Lewisburg, or anywhere else, looking for Ray?

She was there on 4/17. She also was interviewed by the police and sat down with Buehner and McKnight for four hours.

And in almost 7 years,. STILL hasn't held a memorial service for him.

Nor for anyone else.

So, I really don't see the outpouring of loving actions post- disappearance, which is when we started to know SOMETHING about her.

She basically retreated, publicly, after the first emphasizing of LMW. I think it might be related to that.

We cannot think of these people, any of them, in only black and white!!! When JJ does that, I call him out on it. He had stopped doing it here, that's WHY I came back to this forum.
Today, I just wanted to show him that others can do the exact same thing in rebuttal. I'd never done so before, and I regret doing so about Patty.
I should have pointed out that what he was doing was calling RG a less than stellar person in saying Patty was used as his doormat.
He has never ever been a PF sympathizer.

Well, no, not a doormat, but the Mini had me puzzled. He bought it, put it her name, and then he drove it almost exclusively.

RFG wanted to travel, so PEF was willing to go with him. He wanted to retire, so she was willing. Their first date was a trip to Cleveland, his home town, where he took male friends. I don't see her as manipulative in any way.

 

[AllisonS]

In my defense, JJ started this by painting Patty as the doormat victim of RG. IMO, she's not. She is a girlfriend whose boyfriend either left her or died 6.5 years ago. What he really did though, was to call RG a " BULLY" without saying so.
IF PF was a " doormat", then RG stepped all over her. No, I don't believe it and I hope he doesn't believe it either. If he does, then he must intensely dislike the person he has written about for years- Ray Gricar.


Another thing- which no one has ever addressed on here to the best of my knowledge, is this:
How many searches did PFo organize or take part in?
How many times was she seen in Lewisburg, or anywhere else, looking for Ray?
The answer is none, as far as is known. She did nothing for the man she supposedly loved so much except call 911.
And in almost 7 years,. STILL hasn't held a memorial service for him.
So, I really don't see the outpouring of loving actions post- disappearance, which is when we started to know SOMETHING about her. I'm sure she has been sad and so forth. But a GF of only 2 years? She is NOT a weeping widow. He's been gone 3 times as long as he was with her!!

We cannot think of these people, any of them, in only black and white!!! When JJ does that, I call him out on it. He had stopped doing it here, that's WHY I came back to this forum.
.
I should have pointed out that what he was doing was calling RG a less than stellar person in saying Patty was used as his doormat.
He has never ever been a PF sympathizer.
I don't like smoke and mirrors. I don't think for one second that he believes what he posted-- the list of why a healthy 40 something year old woman would be RG's " doormat:".

To use HER to demean RG is just not right; WS has a long- standing policy of respecting a missing person. That includes not going through the back door to call them a bully or a user of people.
Besides, I do not believe that ANY adult with normal mental function will or can be used. People make choices about relationships based upon what they want to do ( especially when children are not involved). Patty is not a simpleton and Ray is not a hard- nosed bully. What they did and planned to do is virtually unknown to us. We only have small snippets of what SHE said. We don't have his POV at all.

Today, I just wanted to show him that others can do the exact same thing in rebuttal. I'd never done so before, and I regret doing so about Patty

This topic is turning into the hot mess it used to be again. ONE person cannot say whatever comes to mind about Ray Gricar. WS has a policy of not re-victimizing the missing or dead.

I feel extremely saddened that both RG and PF were not held in high esteem today and most of all, I regret that I responded in the way that I did.
I will be taking a break until things are back on an even keel here. If that doesn't happen, then I will always pray for RG's health and safety.

SeekingJana,
I think what you posted is absolutely correct, in that it needs to be examined and discussed as a possibility. On the other hand, I think the exact opposite needs to be discusses and examined as a possibility.

I think it's false to EVER paint a person as all good or all bad..that's too simplistic and childlike in nature. Both RG and PF had things in their private life they would probably rather the world not know about, just as they both have traits/actions that would probably impress most people in a positive way.

I don't think one way or another about PF. Funnily enough, I don't get a good feeling on her one way or another, so I just wanted to throw my two cents out there. :twocents: I think the whole nature of these investigations makes it easy to demonize one person and bestow a sainthood on another. While certainly not criticizing the victim, I was just pointing out that it's not always that black and white and not always that easy. I consider myself a good person, but if I went missing there would be things people could and would say about me. I wouldn't consider that demonizing me as a victim, but instead investigating all aspects of the situation and turning over all stones. I have a long ago background in LE, before I became an accountant, and this was something I learned to do back then. It's just kind of stuck with me over time.

I certainly didn't mean to offend, and instead meant to offer additional points of discussion that, hopefully, might help in the RG investigation.

 

[AllisonS]

Tallahassee Bridge is in FL. Do you know where the Tallahatchie bridge was when the song was written? ( It has collapsed since.. showing my age again-- but I was really young when the song was a hit)

Thanks for the smiles, LC. Your post made me stop and think about what was REALLY being said here today. I feel very ashamed about my part in it.. Sometimes. buttons get pushed and I have to stop and think " Why did that upset me so"? It's because RG does not deserve to be dragged through the mud, doormat waiting or not.

Hope to post with you again. Carry on!!

You care, end of story...and if I ever go missing I hope someone cares enough about me to make sure it wasn't against my will! :smile:

 

[AllisonS]

I think the last few weeks have been very much an emotional rollercoaster on this case. The Sandusky case was disheartening, then the blonde, big haired woman was a new hope in a positive direction. I think there are going to be more ups and downs before this is all over and I hope everyone hangs in here for the long haul...I think the discussion is very informative and helpful!

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I never intended to "demonize" anyone. It just is the characterization of either of them being "manipulative."

I've just had the impression that RFG led and PEF followed, at least in the social parts of their relationship. Some people are happy in that kind of a relationship. If it worked for both of them, that is great.

He liked driving alone, she was okay with that. He wanted to take her to Cleveland, and I can think of more romantic places, she was okay with that. He wanted to drive the Mini, fine, she had her own car. He wanted to travel, she would plan go along with him. That is not being manipulative, on either of their parts.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I think the last few weeks have been very much an emotional rollercoaster on this case. The Sandusky case was disheartening, then the blonde, big haired woman was a new hope in a positive direction. I think there are going to be more ups and downs before this is all over and I hope everyone hangs in here for the long haul...I think the discussion is very informative and helpful!

If IB is accurate, it might be positive in terms of a solution, but it might not in terms of what happened to RFG. This could very easily point to foul play.

I have a hard time figuring out why a helper would get into the Mini. Presumably, a helper would have transportation and RFG would realize the car would be checked, forensically.

 

[AllisonS]

If IB is accurate, it might be positive in terms of a solution, but it might not in terms of what happened to RFG. This could very easily point to foul play.

I have a hard time figuring out why a helper would get into the Mini. Presumably, a helper would have transportation and RFG would realize the car would be checked, forensically.

But on the same note, someone who wished him harm would have to know that the car would be checked forensically, and probably wouldn't just jump into the Mini.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

But on the same note, someone who wished him harm would have to know that the car would be checked forensically, and probably wouldn't just jump into the Mini.

If that person was planning an act of foul play.

One theory that I have is that RFG was planning a romantic encounter. (He would take the laptop because he just wanted to toss the drive.) He met the woman, but at some point, they had a quarrel. She killed him in a fit of rage, a literal crime of passion.

If the sighting is accurate, and there are other witness to a BWBH, she could be that person.

[My first theory was that PEF met him after work and the same thing happened. She is accounted for that evening, so that rules her out as the person he was meeting. It would also be difficult, though not impossible, to hide the body in that short amount of time.]

 

[Lord_Chatterly]

Tallahassee Bridge is in FL. Do you know where the Tallahatchie bridge was when the song was written? ( It has collapsed since.. showing my age again-- but I was really young when the song was a hit)

Thanks for the smiles, LC. Your post made me stop and think about what was REALLY being said here today. I feel very ashamed about my part in it.. Sometimes. buttons get pushed and I have to stop and think " Why did that upset me so"? It's because RG does not deserve to be dragged through the mud, doormat waiting or not.

Hope to post with you again. Carry on!!

Jana : I read all this tonite very troubled, and my response with a heavy heart. The last few days have been emotional and yet exciting. I feel a responsibility in this, and hate to see you leave us this way. I have been looking back on all we have written here the last few days, and things have taken off like a rocket.

Others are watching us now, that I know, I see the numbers. How we have come together is far more than I ever imagined. Your input here is important. Please reconsider where you are. S t a y with us. You will be sorely missed. That is from me to you.

Your Friend
Lord_Chatterly

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Jana : I read all this tonite very troubled, and my response with a heavy heart. The last few days have been emotional and yet exciting. I feel a responsibility in this, and hate to see you leave us this way. I have been looking back on all we have written here the last few days, and things have taken off like a rocket.

Others are watching us now, that I know, I see the numbers. How we have come together is far more than I ever imagined. Your input here is important. Please reconsider where you are. S t a y with us. You will be sorely missed. That is from me to you.

Your Friend
Lord_Chatterly

I certainly hope Jana is not leaving, nor you. I value you input, and I hope I've made that clear over the last several days.

 

[Lord_Chatterly]

I certainly hope Jana is not leaving, nor you. I value you input, and I hope I've made that clear over the last several days.

JJ: Thanks for acknowledging my Post. Yes, you have been very clear, and that is much appreciated. The last few days have been far beyond what I ever expected. Compelling to say the least. Never did I imagine how close knit we have become. It was like a bomb went off in Here, and I could tell it moved you, as well.

I must say that I was disheartened tonite. I hope Jana stays with us. I see how our 'quality' has gone up, and more are watching us now...I see the numbers. I would like to see us have a positive impact on Ray's case.

Anyway...coming from you, JJ, that means a lot. Kudos, my friend.

Sincerely,
Lord_Chatterly

 

[Bellaneph]

Even though some on here have certain feelings about Patty, I got the feeling Ray really liked Patty. Putting a car in someone's name is nothing to sneeze at. Maybe it even showed some predetermination on his part about his leaving eventually or just worked out well in the end by chance, but either way, it was his choice to put the car in her name. I also got the feeling that he liked her as a person even though he might not have been as in love with her as she was with him. Either way, I'm not so sure (as Allison stated earlier) that his leaving had anything to do with Patty. He probably didn't say anything because that would defeat the point, wouldn't it?

As for the laptop/hard drive. Maybe he thought he would get another drive and threw in the hard drive and then thought about it for a few minutes after and decided it wasn't such a good idea to call attention to the hard drive by buying a new one. That might make people think "what happened to the old one?" And if someone recognized him buying a new hard drive after he disappeared, that would be a problem. Ray didn't expect anyone to find the old hard drive after all.....So, I think it was just a change in plan thinking he'd cover his tracks better. He didn't need his laptop then anyway and it was just safer to buy a whole computer later.

Can someone please start an official new thread on this topic? It's now 36 pages. thanks

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Here is the new thread:

PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #8 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Please continue posting there.

Please close this thread, and please delete the thread where I put in the wrong title.