PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #9

[J. J. in Phila]

Boxing is the sport we usually associate with gambling because it only takes one boxer to fix a fight. A college football team, by contrast, will play around 35 players during a game. Unless a star player is on the take, a fix is unreliable.

Plus, even if an organized crime syndicate had its hooks in a star player or coach at Penn State, Paterno would have pulled the player or overruled the coach if he was not performing well. Paterno wanted win (perhaps too much). So I think we can safely rule out gambling. JMO.

I'll save all my sports questions for you.

There were some point shaving scandals in other sports, but I didn't see any with college or professional football.

Edit: I found one in the NFL in 1946.

 

[abstr]

That involved McQueary, and there is no suggestion that RFG ever knew about that incident. It is intriguing thought, I must admit.

In theory, it would be possible to use a public site, and leave after sending it. I have heard that someone in Europe does look at the Gricar sites.



Regarding Sandusky in 1998, possibly. I'm sure people bet on the games. After 1999, I'd doubt it. Sandusky was not part of the program anymore.

I went there, but I never was a football fan. When I saw the first headline about Sandusky and a grand jury, I couldn't figure out why the Centre Daily Times was covering a municipal scandal in a northern Ohio city.

Are you saying that McCreary sent the email?

 

[abstr]

I am so sickened by the Jerry Sandusky thoughts.
I don't know what I think about Ray's disappearance.
I have always wondered about connections to Jonathan Luna case as well....but I really just wish we'd get answers.
Was Ray a depressed man who offed himself ? Did he run away and is happy somewhere or did someone help him vanish unwillingly?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Are you saying that McCreary sent the email?

No, and I didn't even come close to suggesting he did.

I'm saying that whomever sent it had to know about the 2001. There was no suggestion RFG did know about it.

I think you mean McQueary.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I am so sickened by the Jerry Sandusky thoughts.
I don't know what I think about Ray's disappearance.
I have always wondered about connections to Jonathan Luna case as well....but I really just wish we'd get answers.
Was Ray a depressed man who offed himself ? Did he run away and is happy somewhere or did someone help him vanish unwillingly?

Some years ago, I did a comparison between between the Luna case and RFG's disappearance. Even assuming that both were murders (which is not in evidence), the MO was very different and there doesn't seem to be any connection between the two: http://www.centredaily.com/2009/12/06/2396337/the-other-prosecutor-part-2-parallels.html

As for depression, it is certainly possible. There was a family history of it; RFG's very depressed brother committed suicide in 1996. RFG was also acting uncharacteristically anything from a week to a month prior to his disappearance. "Distraught" was one word used. Other accounts say unfocused. He was also sleeping more, napping.

The problem with the suicide theory is that after seven years, two months, and an odd number of day, there have been no remains found. It is somewhat difficult to hide your body after you are dead.

 

[Hardymum]

Plus, even if an organized crime syndicate had its hooks in a star player or coach at Penn State, Paterno would have pulled the player or overruled the coach if he was not performing well. Paterno wanted win (perhaps too much). So I think we can safely rule out gambling. JMO.

I wasn't think of having its hooks in a player or coach so much as the overall reputation and interest in Penn State Football, people betting on the team as a whole. The allegiance to Penn State Football was crazy in Pennsylvania!

 

[Hardymum]

No, and I didn't even come close to suggesting he did.

I'm saying that whomever sent it had to know about the 2001. There was no suggestion RFG did know about it.

I think you mean McQueary.

But what if he did, and knew he should prosecute but for whatever reason (perhaps the same reason as in 1998) felt he couldn't do so but ethically really wanted it to be known.

Would love to know the ISP address of that anonymous email.

 

[Hardymum]

That involved McQueary, and there is no suggestion that RFG ever knew about that incident. It is intriguing thought, I must admit.

In theory, it would be possible to use a public site, and leave after sending it. I have heard that someone in Europe does look at the Gricar sites.



Regarding Sandusky in 1998, possibly. I'm sure people bet on the games. After 1999, I'd doubt it. Sandusky was not part of the program anymore.

I went there, but I never was a football fan. When I saw the first headline about Sandusky and a grand jury, I couldn't figure out why the Centre Daily Times was covering a municipal scandal in a northern Ohio city.

Unfortunately, we now know there is more to the name Sandusky than roller coasters, though both made me sick to my stomach. :/

 

[J. J. in Phila]

But what if he did, and knew he should prosecute but for whatever reason (perhaps the same reason as in 1998) felt he couldn't do so but ethically really wanted it to be known.

Would love to know the ISP address of that anonymous email.

2001 was actually weaker, with no victim and only one direct witness; you had Drs. McQueary and Dranov in support. I could have seen a situation where RFG didn't think that McQueary was that solid.

Remember 1998, you had Victim 6, Ralston, Schreffler, and the mother, that were direct witnesses to what happened or to Sandusky's statement. You also had Dr. Chambers, and Seasock, in support to back up what Victim 6 said. You also had another victim, B. K.

I actually don't know that RFG ever interviewed either victim.

 

[BigCat]

I know it's been stated in previous threads that RFG did not hesitate to prosecute Penn State football players. Is there a list of those prosecutions? I'm curious to see if there is a detectable difference between pre-98 and post-98.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I know it's been stated in previous threads that RFG did not hesitate to prosecute Penn State football players. Is there a list of those prosecutions? I'm curious to see if there is a detectable difference between pre-98 and post-98.

I don't have one, but there was one in early 2000's that touched on Paterno.

A football player was charged with rape; Paterno let him suit up for a bowl game. There was an uproar with feminist groups calling for Paterno to resign.

RFG continued prosecuting, and lost! The woman had voluntarily stayed with the player after the incident and was seen, or testified to, to kissing him goodnight as she left.

 

[BigCat]

I don't have one, but there was one in early 2000's that touched on Paterno.

A football player was charged with rape; Paterno let him suit up for a bowl game. There was an uproar with feminist groups calling for Paterno to resign.

RFG continued prosecuting, and lost! The woman had voluntarily stayed with the player after the incident and was seen, or testified to, to kissing him goodnight as she left.

Are you referring to this case? http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2011/05/former_penn_state_football_pla.html

Interesting quote from one of the player's attorneys:

"There was a culture of prosecuting football players,” said Scott’s attorney, Benjamin Lichtman of Allentown. “There was an initial conspiracy to prosecute ... and to withhold the prior allegation.”

I realize he's a defense attorney, so, of course, he's going to make those allegations. Still, I wonder if RFG's attitude toward the football program changed after the Sandusky investigation. Perhaps he felt burned by a lack of follow-through from the university. Perhaps he did accumulate enemies over the years, despite having cut Sandusky a break in 98. By 2005, he could no longer be depended upon to not rock the boat.

JMO

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Are you referring to this case? http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2011/05/former_penn_state_football_pla.html

Interesting quote from one of the player's attorneys:



I realize he's a defense attorney, so, of course, he's going to make those allegations. Still, I wonder if RFG's attitude toward the football program changed after the Sandusky investigation. Perhaps he felt burned by a lack of follow-through from the university. Perhaps he did accumulate enemies over the years, despite having cut Sandusky a break in 98. By 2005, he could no longer be depended upon to not rock the boat.

JMO

No, that incident took place two years after RFG disappeared.

Anwar Phillips, 2003: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...-s-troubling-attitude-toward-sex-charges.html

Paterno let him dress for the Capital One Bowl game (2002-03), after charges, but before suspension as a student and trial. Paterno received criticism for doing so.

The case was strong enough to go to trial, and RFG argued it personally. Phillips was acquitted. It wasn't even a hung jury; the victim's testimony was weak.

I read an account of one of the jurors, female, and she was absolutely convinced that there was no rape. It wasn't even that she thought there might have been rape (there was sex); she thought the victim was lying.

So, a weak case, against a football player, Paterno being criticized for it, and RFG not only prosecutes it, but he argues it personally. And loses.

That is not a guy bowing to pressure from Penn State!

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Here is some commentary: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MensIssuesOnline/message/4725

http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...QIiAAAAIBAJ&sjid=CKMFAAAAIBAJ&pg=2441,7575683

http://articles.philly.com/2003-08-...-assault-temporary-expulsion-indecent-assault

http://old.post-gazette.com/sports/psu/20030827anwar0827p5.asp

 

[BigCat]

No, that incident took place two years after RFG disappeared.

Anwar Phillips, 2003: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...-s-troubling-attitude-toward-sex-charges.html

Paterno let him dress for the Capital One Bowl game (2002-03), after charges, but before suspension as a student and trial. Paterno received criticism for doing so.

The case was strong enough to go to trial, and RFG argued it personally. Phillips was acquitted. It wasn't even a hung jury; the victim's testimony was weak.

I read an account of one of the jurors, female, and she was absolutely convinced that there was no rape. It wasn't even that she thought there might have been rape (there was sex); she thought the victim was lying.

So, a weak case, against a football player, Paterno being criticized for it, and RFG not only prosecutes it, but he argues it personally. And loses.

That is not a guy bowing to pressure from Penn State!

Thanks for all the links.

Just on the face of it, without having followed the trial, that case looked like a loser from the beginning. Maybe RFG really believed the victim. I don't know. It's a head-scratcher why he would prosecute the weaker case and not the stronger one.

I attempted to find any info on prosecutions of Penn State football players in the 90's. I didn't find any, but that doesn't mean much. There is so much info on the net related to RFG and Gricar now, I can't refine my search enough.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Thanks for all the links.

Just on the face of it, without having followed the trial, that case looked like a loser from the beginning. Maybe RFG really believed the victim. I don't know. It's a head-scratcher why he would prosecute the weaker case and not the stronger one

I didn't follow it, but I remembered criticism of Paterno over the matter. I don't follow football, but it was loud enough to remember it.

I'm sure RFG believed the victim, and the case got to court, so it had some merit. But, come on. No medical evidence of an attack, with the exam the next morning. The complainant says when she told him not to kiss her, he didn't; then, she kisses him.

The thing is, this one indirectly involved Paterno, you know, the guy in the mural with a halo. A guilty verdict would have greatly damaged his reputation.

I attempted to find any info on prosecutions of Penn State football players in the 90's. I didn't find any, but that doesn't mean much. There is so much info on the net related to RFG and Gricar now, I can't refine my search enough.

There might have been some, but I do know he prosecuted students, even as an ADA. He prosecuted, successfully, someone at Penn State who embezzled.

One of the reasons I became so interested in RFG was because he wasn't political and he didn't give breaks to the powerful employer, Penn State. He'd take difficult cases and often argue them personally.

Gricar was hard hitting DA, except for Sandusky. It keeps coming back to that phrase, except for Sandusky.

Maybe just gigantically bad judgment, but hugely uncharacteristic.

 

[CJMAJORGIRL24]

I can't get Mr. Gricar off my mind. I believe he wanted to do the right thing-but I think that the pressure was too much for him. "The powers" at Penn State could very well have told Mr. Gricar-that they would handle-ole Jer, and ensured him that he would be leaving Penn State IF Mr. Gricar would not press charges.
And he did retire -but that didn't stop him. I believe that Mr. Gricar never stopped investigating Sandusky, and I do believe that he was very much onto him in March early April of 2005.
Many of Mr. Gricar's associates and even PF said they noticed changes in him. Keeping a terrible secret like the monsters for years, would do that to a person.
I never thought Mr. Gricar ran away, he is not that kind. I do believe that he was murdered, and I believe Mr. Sandusky just might know who the murderer is.

What bothers me is this-IF he does know what happened to Mr. Gricar-could he use that to lessen his own time in prison?

all of this jmo and speculaion ...**sighs

edited to add: I wonder if Sandusky has ever been questioned about Mr. Gricar?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I can't get Mr. Gricar off my mind. I believe he wanted to do the right thing-but I think that the pressure was too much for him. "The powers" at Penn State could very well have told Mr. Gricar-that they would handle-ole Jer, and ensured him that he would be leaving Penn State IF Mr. Gricar would not press charges.
And he did retire -but that didn't stop him. I believe that Mr. Gricar never stopped investigating Sandusky, and I do believe that he was very much onto him in March early April of 2005.

According to the police, he was not investigating Sandusky. There were no files on the incident at the DA's Office. Everything was on paper in 1998. If it had been on the laptop, purchased in 2003-4, there would have to have a source that RFG transferred it from. Where is that source? If it was there, it would very likely that RFG destroyed it prior to 4/15/05.

Many of Mr. Gricar's associates and even PF said they noticed changes in him. Keeping a terrible secret like the monsters for years, would do that to a person.

The change, at the earliest, was five weeks before.

I never thought Mr. Gricar ran away, he is not that kind. I do believe that he was murdered, and I believe Mr. Sandusky just might know who the murderer is.

18 months ago, if you would have told me that RFG would not prosecute a child molestation case where the perpetrator admitted to the act in front of three people, I would have called you a liar, slanderer, and questioned if your parents were married. And I would been totally wrong and would have grossly maligned you.

I will not speculate on the "kind" of person RFG was after that. In light of the Sandusky case, I hope we can all conclude that there are multiple possible motives for him leaving voluntarily.

What bothers me is this-IF he does know what happened to Mr. Gricar-could he use that to lessen his own time in prison?

all of this jmo and speculaion ...**sighs

edited to add: I wonder if Sandusky has ever been questioned about Mr. Gricar?

If he were to know something, or some of the others were to know something, it might lessen their time. They would not necessarily have to know anything about a murder.

 

[CJMAJORGIRL24]

If i was a betting person, I would bet that Sandusky has info on Mr. Gricar's case. I hope that they will/have questioned him.

 

[Tripmap]

Question, which computer searched route to Lewisburg, PA? His home computer or his work laptop?

If it was his home computer, which it probably was, as they were unable to get much off of the water-logged one, who had access to that computer and also smoked, and was not from the area???

They said Ray wouldn't have needed directions to drive to Lewisburg. Maybe the woman he met at the antique mall needed them and he e-mailed them to her (watching the "Disappeared" episode and they mentioned this search, but don't say if they tracked any e-mail messages). Were the directions from his home to Lewisburg or from another location to Lewisburg? It was shown very quickly, so I'm not sure.

Thanks